Charity and The Back Door

[zil]

Something this week caused me to think about charity.  Of course, my first recollection was the description of charity given by Paul and Moroni:

Quote

1 Corinthians 13

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth....

Quote

Moroni 7

45 And charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Then going back and reading these I found all the peripheral stuff that doesn't seem to get as much attention, and yet seems awfully important:

According to Moroni 10:21, without charity, we cannot be saved in the kingdom of God. D&C 4:5 tells us it is one of the things which qualify us for "the work" (which can probably be safely interpreted as any work in the kingdom of God).  We might infer from this verse that without charity, we're not qualified (not that we shouldn't try anyway, even if we feel we're severely lacking in charity).  D&C 18:19 tells us that without charity, we can do nothing.  That's worth some pondering.  If you interpret that as having charity in and of yourself, well, there are probably people with no charity at all who can inhale and exhale, so clearly it's not that kind of "nothing" (though we should acknowledge here that without Christ's charity, they would probably not be inhaling and exhaling).  But it's easy to think perhaps it means nothing redeeming or worthwhile, nothing that will bring you closer to Christ and therefore salvation.  Worth some self-evaluation there.

Meanwhile, Paul and Moroni have a lot more to say than above oft-quoted verses.  Moroni takes the "can do nothing" even further and says that without charity, we are nothing - well, that's saying a lot.  Then he says, "wherefore he must needs have charity" (emphasis mine) - you need it in order to avoid being nothing (loaded word there, worth more pondering).  Moroni concludes his thoughts on charity with these words (emphasis mine) "pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love".  I don't know about anyone else, but I think all the energy of heart is not a simple thing - it's exhausting, taxing, requires courage, trust, and serious effort.

Paul takes this idea of being nothing to such poetic heights and depths that I think I'll just quote him:

Quote

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

...

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

In short, all the other virtues and understanding in the world will do you no good if you don't have charity.

It was the "nothing" idea which caught my attention this round.  Some of you know I have commented at length on the fact that nothing cannot exist (for it to exist, everything would have to cease to exist, but everything exists, therefore nothing cannot ) - I even had a blog post on this very topic.  So I rather like pondering nothing and all and eternity and infinity and other things we can't fully grasp.  So this time, nothing caught my eye (so to speak).  This seemed sort of like entering into the room through the back door.  There are many ways to learn about charity - one can study (and there's quite a lot to study and ponder, from different directions), one can hear a sermon and feel the Spirit, one can witness an act of charity, or receive one, or perform one.  There are many doors into that room, each presenting the entrant a different view.  That which prompted this week's pondering of charity felt like coming in through the back door.

Edited January 5, 2018 by zil

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, zil said:

Something this week caused me to think about charity.  Of course, my first recollection was the description of charity given by Paul and Moroni:

Then going back and reading these I found all the peripheral stuff that doesn't seem to get as much attention, and yet seems awfully important:

According to Moroni 10:21, without charity, we cannot be saved in the kingdom of God. D&C 4:5 tells us it is one of the things which qualify us for "the work" (which can probably be safely interpreted as any work in the kingdom of God).  We might infer from this verse that without charity, we're not qualified (not that we shouldn't try anyway, even if we feel we're severely lacking in charity).  D&C 18:19 tells us that without charity, we can do nothing.  That's worth some pondering.  If you interpret that as having charity in and of yourself, well, there are probably people with no charity at all who can inhale and exhale, so clearly it's not that kind of "nothing" (though we should acknowledge here that without Christ's charity, they would probably not be inhaling and exhaling).  But it's easy to think perhaps it means nothing redeeming or worthwhile, nothing that will bring you closer to Christ and therefore salvation.  Worth some self-evaluation there.

Meanwhile, Paul and Moroni have a lot more to say than above oft-quoted verses.  Moroni takes the "can do nothing" even further and says that without charity, we are nothing - well, that's saying a lot.  Then he says, "wherefore he must needs have charity" (emphasis mine) - you need it in order to avoid being nothing (loaded word there, worth more pondering).  Moroni concludes his thoughts on charity with these words (emphasis mine) "pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love".  I don't know about anyone else, but I think all the energy of heart is not a simple thing - it's exhausting, taxing, requires courage, trust, and serious effort.

Paul takes this idea of being nothing to such poetic heights and depths that I think I'll just quote him:

In short, all the other virtues and understanding in the world will do you no good if you don't have charity.

It was the "nothing" idea which caught my attention this round.  Some of you know I have commented at length on the fact that nothing cannot exist (for it to exist, everything would have to cease to exist, but everything exists, therefore nothing cannot ) - I even had a blog post on this very topic.  So I rather like pondering nothing and all and eternity and infinity and other things we can't fully grasp.  So this time, nothing caught my eye (so to speak).  This seemed sort of like entering into the room through the back door.  There are many ways to learn about charity - one can study (and there's quite a lot to study and ponder, from different directions), one can hear a sermon and feel the Spirit, one can witness an act of charity, or receive one, or perform one.  There are many doors into that room, each presenting the entrant a different view.  That which prompted this week's pondering of charity felt like coming in through the back door.

 

I used to love what I called desert survival camping.  I would take with me a little as possible and go alone into the desert.  I once walked into the desert of southern Utah with my cloths, a knife, about 20 feet of rope and a small wool blanket for 40 days.   I believe this helps a person focused on “things” that really matter.  The reason I bring this up is because often we think things are valuable when in reality, they will not keep you alive when you are alone in the desert.   I agree with your notion that nothing cannot exist – but things can be worthless (without value). 

But there is something else – things can be worse than worthless.  Some “things” can be a burden.  In my understanding – this is worse that worthless.  I believe the idea is that unless there is charity there is no progress – nothing of value can be accomplished.  It means that if you do not take charity with you into the desert that you will not survive.  When I was on my 40-day survival – I was expecting a spiritual experience.  I thought my experience was ruined because I ran across a lost individual in serious condition.  It nearly cost me my life to get this person to help.  It took me many years to realize that helping that person was the spiritual experience that I was seeking.

If someone is seeking salvation – their seeking is worthless if their motivation is to be saved.  Like when I was in the wilderness – my experience would not have been of any value if I had abandoned the dying individual.  I do not know if I could have even lived my life have I not risked my own life for someone else.  I only wish that I could have been of more help to more in their hour of greatest need.

 

The Traveler

[zil]

15 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I used to love what I called desert survival camping.  I would take with me a little as possible and go alone into the desert.  I once walked into the desert of southern Utah with my cloths, a knife, about 20 feet of rope and a small wool blanket for 40 days.   I believe this helps a person focused on “things” that really matter.  The reason I bring this up is because often we think things are valuable when in reality, they will not keep you alive when you are alone in the desert.

Please forgive me if at this exact point the two thoughts which popped into my mind were: "MacGyver" and "duct tape".

18 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I thought my experience was ruined because I ran across a lost individual in serious condition.  It nearly cost me my life to get this person to help.  It took me many years to realize that helping that person was the spiritual experience that I was seeking.

This story reminds me of an equally powerful story told in April 1998 General Conference, “Search Me, O God, and Know My Heart”, by James E. Faust:

Quote

Let me illustrate this with a story from the Church News:

“A group of religion instructors [were] taking a summer course on the life of the Savior and focusing particularly on the parables.

“When the final exam time came, … the students arrived at the classroom to find a note that the exam would be given in another building across campus. Moreover, the note said, it must be finished within the two-hour time period that was starting almost at that moment.

“The students hurried across campus. On the way they passed a little girl crying over a flat tire on her new bike. An old man hobbled painfully toward the library with a cane in one hand, spilling books from a stack he was trying to manage with the other. On a bench by the union building sat a shabbily dressed, bearded man [in obvious distress].

“Rushing into the other classroom, the students were met by the professor, who announced they had all flunked the final exam.

“The only true test of whether they understood the Savior’s life and teaching, he said, was how they treated people in need.

“Their weeks of study at the feet of a capable professor had taught them a great deal of what Christ had said and done.”⁸ In their haste to finish the technicalities of the course, however, they failed to recognize the application represented by the three scenes that had been deliberately staged. They learned the letter but not the spirit. Their neglect of the little girl and the two men showed that the profound message of the course had not entered into their inward parts.

 

[askandanswer]

On 06/01/2018 at 3:27 AM, zil said:

 

On 06/01/2018 at 3:27 AM, zil said:

According to Moroni 10:21, without charity, we cannot be saved in the kingdom of God).  D&C 18:19 tells us that without charity, we can do nothing. 

I can do something therefore it must be that i have charity. Because i have charity i can be saved in the kingdom of God. Nice to know

 

[askandanswer]

On 06/01/2018 at 3:27 AM, zil said:

  Moroni takes the "can do nothing" even further and says that without charity, we are nothing -

I've always disagreed with Moroni and Paul on this particular point. I think its wrong to reduce any person to "nothing" simply because they lack one particular quality. I am confident that a person can still be aomething even if they lack charity. Everybody has some value. In all seriousness i think its a fairly uncharitable thing to say. And that's kind of odd; because right in the middle of a teaching that counsels about the value and virtue of charity Moroni, the teacher, says something that seems to be uncharitable. Where's the charity in describing someone as "nothing"?

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I've always disagreed with Moroni and Paul on this particular point. I think its wrong to reduce any person to "nothing" simply because they lack one particular quality. I am confident that a person can still be aomething even if they lack charity. Everybody has some value. In all seriousness i think its a fairly uncharitable thing to say. And that's kind of odd; because right in the middle of a teaching that counsels about the value and virtue of charity Moroni, the teacher, says something that seems to be uncharitable. Where's the charity in describing someone as "nothing"?

I get what you are saying, but I think it would be very rare to find someone who truly completely lacks charity (though some of us have more charity than others), and that person would almost by definition be a very horrible person, a very evil psychopath along the lines of John Wayne Gacy (who would be a very good example of the rare type of person I would feel fine calling "nothing"). In other words, conscience and the ability to feel empathy almost guarantee we have at least some charity within us, and we can't help but to feel at least some of that kind of unconditional love for one another as fellow humans. 

Just sayin'!  

Edited January 7, 2018 by DoctorLemon

[wenglund]

17 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I've always disagreed with Moroni and Paul on this particular point. I think its wrong to reduce any person to "nothing" simply because they lack one particular quality. I am confident that a person can still be aomething even if they lack charity. Everybody has some value. In all seriousness i think its a fairly uncharitable thing to say. And that's kind of odd; because right in the middle of a teaching that counsels about the value and virtue of charity Moroni, the teacher, says something that seems to be uncharitable. Where's the charity in describing someone as "nothing"?

I agree with  @Traveler  that the "nothing" is related to value--particularly spiritual.

However, I also think the word "nothing"  is being used in relative terms rather than absolute--i.e. I make a piddly monthly wage, so in absolute terms I am not making "nothing," though my monthly wages is "nothing" compared with Bill Gates.

[Edit: A scriptural example of relatively "nothing" is in Moses 1:8-10 (emphasis mine):  "And it came to pass that Moses looked, and beheld theworld upon which he was created; and Moses beheld the world and the ends thereof, and all the children of men which are, and which were created; of the same he greatly marveled and wondered....Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed."]

With that in mind, I believe that things are considered as relatively "nothing" in value without charity because charity is such an exponential magnifier, not just within the individual performing the charity, but also the recipients blessed thereby, and this compounded by the ripple effect of the recipients being inspired to paying it forward.

For example, if I eat breakfast and lunch tomorrow, I will be personally satiated for a few hours, and much of what I eat will likely become dross. Whereas, if I donate the proceeds of those two meals to Fast Offerings, it not only alters my soul a bit for the better for eternity, but it may also allow  someone enough sustenance and hope to  survive and eventually to thrive, putting them in a position to help others on Fast Sunday, and on and on.

Analogously, had the one seed been selfishly consumed, it will amount to relatively nothing compared with the potential yield from the immense orchard resulting from that single seed being planted charitably. One seed planted, producing abundant fruit annually, some of which is used to plant more trees, and so on and and so forth. 

Something to consider.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited January 7, 2018 by wenglund
Added example

[zil]

Something else to consider: charity = the pure love of Christ.  Therefore, without the pure love of Christ, we are nothing.  As in, if Christ did not have pure love for us, he would not have performed the Atonement, and we would be lost forever, subject to Satan, continually losing light (in the absence of the light-giver) until such time as only darkness remains.

[laronius]

Matt 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I think this is the doctrinal basis for the sentiment already expressed by others. If obedience to any of God's laws is ultimately motivated, to one degree or another, by one of these two commandments then a complete lack of love/charity would lead one to be unmotivated to keep any of God's commandments. A person in such a state of total and absolute darkness would probably qualify as the nothing spoken of. Fortunately few are actually that bad but since charity is something we possess in degrees and if nothingness represents the extreme on one end with God on the other end the question becomes "Where do we fall on that scale?"

[Guest]

I was just given the topic for 3rd hour lesson this week for our stake.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/the-needs-before-us?lang=eng

I had to think of this thread when I read it.

I've often worded the OP's comments in a different manner.  But this address by Sis Oscarson made me realize we were saying about the same thing.

I read the "Pure Love of Christ" to mean love from different directions.  The key is the word "of."  This word can be replaced with "from" or "for" or "belonging to" or "in likeness to" depending on your meaning.

Christ's love for us is the definitive Charity.
Our returned love for Him is one manifestation of charity what we can feel and act upon.
Our love for others in a manner similar to the Love Christ has for us is also charity.
Then the love we receive from others in like manner is also charity.

[zil]

8 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I was just given the topic for 3rd hour lesson this week for our stake.

I find that interesting.  The guidelines indicate the president / group leader should decide - not that the bishop or SP can't overrule, but I find it interesting that they are already.  I wonder at what level the decision is generally being made across the Church.  (Not that there's a way to find out, just wondering out loud.)

[zil]

PS: That was our lesson in RS last Sunday.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, zil said:

I find that interesting.  The guidelines indicate the president / group leader should decide - not that the bishop or SP can't overrule, but I find it interesting that they are already.  I wonder at what level the decision is generally being made across the Church.  (Not that there's a way to find out, just wondering out loud.)

That is interesting.  I'll have to double check on that.  The man who gave me the topic often gets things mixed up.

[Guest]

Well, I just had an interesting conversation with my daughter.  It appears there is a bit of boy/girl drama chain happening here.  Now, this does have to do with charity, so I thought it would be ok to add it to this thread.

She was just in a Laurel presidency meeting.  Apparently, there is a young Laurel who has some special needs.  She asked some young man out on a date.  He rejected her in a very unkind manner.  So, they thought that they would put together a laurel class activity and set her up with the young man in the ward whom they all believe to be "the catch."  I don't know what they call "that guy" nowadays.  Because he really is a sweet guy, they figured he would probably go along with it when they explained what was going on and why they wanted him to ask her out.

The thing is that this young man and my daughter are "almost a thing."  That's the best I can put it without further explanation..  AND, the entire presidency was aware of this.  AND they kinda gave my daughter a hard time about this (in good humor).  But they thought that they'd set her up with this young man's younger brother.  They're from a wonderful family that is quite popular in the ward.  So, he's considered a catch as well.  Problem.  He's "almost a thing" with another laurel in the ward who is a friend of my daughter.  Does the chain never end...

She came to me for advice on how to respond to this.  So, we talked about the nature of dating nowadays.  We talked about service.  We talked about charity.  But she mentioned how all this felt really weird like people were moving other people around like chess pieces.  I asked if it felt like manipulation.  She said that wasn't the feeling of what was happening.  She didn't know.  It just all felt weird.

I thought for a moment... "Are you jealous?"

...

...

"Maybe... a little."  She's never felt jealousy before.  She's always been the one who sacrificed for others, very freely.  Interesting that she feels this way for a young man.

So I told her about @anatess2 and her many Facebook secret admirers -- and her husband's reaction to them.  I told her that I was asked in high school to do exactly what this young man is going to be asked to do.  I did it and I still continued to go out with my girlfriend at the time.

I finally told her,"I think it would be a tremendous act of service if you and he went along with this.  The two of you would still have plenty of time to date later on.  And I ALSO believe that if you put your foot down and want to take him on this group activity yourself, then I don't believe that would be wrong either.  I suggest you pray about it and make a decision."

We'll see what happens.  Maybe she will pull out her mighty shortsword (she just got it for Christmas) and put down the drama llama.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Guest

[anatess2]

You're an awesome dad, @Carborendum!  Let us know how it went!

I agree with your daughter on the "chess pieces" thing.  But yeah, it's a noble gesture.  I'm fairly certain my son would tell the Laurel Presidency not to set kids up themselves but instead tell the young men about the problem and ask them what they can do to help out.  My son would probably go out to the group activity with who he wants to go out and then ask the special kid to be his date's wing-woman.  And he'd probably set up a D&D game with her in it or something like that.  Or give her Mistborn and text her periodically to ask her how she's liking it or something.  In any case, he'll do something about it.

By the way... my oldest son is now Dungeon Master on D&D.  There's one young woman in his group and she's a newbie to D&D.  She had a birthday last week and all the D&D boys attended her birthday (usually, her bdays are all girl parties).  The boys went super excited because they get to go to the one and only D&D store in town to fight over who gets to give the best present (boys and competition, I tell ya).  Anyway, she's been feeling "princess" since she joined that gang.  Last year, she bore her testimony that she's been feeling depressed.  Her older sister, who also recently went through a very rough depression patch, just left for her mission so she's feeling alone in her troubles.  It's a whole 180 with that D&D thing now.

Edited January 18, 2018 by anatess2

[Guest]

4 hours ago, anatess2 said:

You're an awesome dad, @Carborendum!  Let us know how it went!

I agree with your daughter on the "chess pieces" thing.  But yeah, it's a noble gesture.  I'm fairly certain my son would tell the Laurel Presidency not to set kids up themselves but instead tell the young men about the problem and ask them what they can do to help out.  My son would probably go out to the group activity with who he wants to go out and then ask the special kid to be his date's wing-woman.  And he'd probably set up a D&D game with her in it or something like that.  Or give her Mistborn and text her periodically to ask her how she's liking it or something.  In any case, he'll do something about it.

By the way... my oldest son is now Dungeon Master on D&D.  There's one young woman in his group and she's a newbie to D&D.  She had a birthday last week and all the D&D boys attended her birthday (usually, her bdays are all girl parties).  The boys went super excited because they get to go to the one and only D&D store in town to fight over who gets to give the best present (boys and competition, I tell ya).  Anyway, she's been feeling "princess" since she joined that gang.  Last year, she bore her testimony that she's been feeling depressed.  Her older sister, who also recently went through a very rough depression patch, just left for her mission so she's feeling alone in her troubles.  It's a whole 180 with that D&D thing now.

D&D.  That's a great idea.  Our family somehow got known as the D&D family of the stake.  So, we've been having it at our house for a while now.  I'll see if we can inject that into the situation.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

On 1/17/2018 at 4:03 PM, zil said:

I find that interesting.  The guidelines indicate the president / group leader should decide - not that the bishop or SP can't overrule, but I find it interesting that they are already.  I wonder at what level the decision is generally being made across the Church.  (Not that there's a way to find out, just wondering out loud.)

Yup, it was as I heard it.  The SP took executive privilege and decided that we'd follow the pattern for the other Sundays of the month.  But the stake would determine the third Sunday lesson.  If you recall when I put up our schedule of lessons how the third Sunday was left "TBD" (which was the lesson I was in charge of).  It was because the stake hadn't come up with the topics yet.  So, they have decided and sent them out.

They just didn't share the new list with the instructors yet.

[Guest]

So, my daughter is going to be set up on a blind date by the one other girl in the ward that I would trust with the task.  My Princess's beau is going to escort the other young lady to the (now dubbed) "priest/laurel" activity.

Drama... officially dead.

[Sunday21]

@Carborendum ‘The SP took executive privilege and decided that we'd follow the pattern for the other Sundays of the month’ So the stake? Came up with lesson ideas for Priesthood? Or asked presidency of priesthood to select conference talks?

[anatess2]

9 hours ago, Carborendum said:

So, my daughter is going to be set up on a blind date by the one other girl in the ward that I would trust with the task.  My Princess's beau is going to escort the other young lady to the (now dubbed) "priest/laurel" activity.

Drama... officially dead.

Or... more drama begun.  Depending on how it goes at the activity, eh?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

@Carborendum ‘The SP took executive privilege and decided that we'd follow the pattern for the other Sundays of the month’ So the stake? Came up with lesson ideas for Priesthood? Or asked presidency of priesthood to select conference talks?

First a little background on the program:

Quote

On the second and third Sundays of each month, Melchizedek Priesthood quorums and Relief Societies study the teachings of Church leaders from the most recent general conference. Emphasis should be given to messages from members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles; however, based on local needs and inspiration from the Spirit, any message from the most recent conference may be discussed.

...

In most cases, the quorum presidency, group leadership, or Relief Society presidency will select a conference message to study based on the needs of the members, although the bishop or stake president may give input. 

The stake decided to go with the standard program for the 2nd Sunday and alter some of the lessons for the 3rd Sunday.  I'm not sure how much it was altered since I still haven't seen the original unaltered schedule. But from comments on this board, I find that it wasn't altered that much.

[NeuroTypical]

1 Cor 13 is hands down my favorite bit of scriptures.  Gives me a very clear picture of what I should be shooting for, and starkly unambiguous statements about the results if I fail.

[Sunday21]

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-cor/13.12

i could improve!

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-cor/13.12

i could improve!

If you need to improve, there's no hope for me.

[Sunday21]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

If you need to improve, there's no hope for me.

With your early morning, ‘drive everyone to seminary’ schedule, you have us all beat! I bet they FEDEX’ed you a key to the celestial kingdom!