Fate of Judas Iscariot

[BroBob1]

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[zil]

Welcome, @BroBob1! 

(That's 2. Do I hear 3?)

[Sunday21]

@BroBob1Hi there! I was surprised when I converted that lds did not consider Judas to be misguided, tricked, or deceived. We consider him to be deliberately evil, I think anyway.

[Traveler]

8 hours ago, BroBob1 said:

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As near as I can determine the fate of Judas Iscariot lies with Judas and the L-rd.  I do not believe any of us actually has any say in the matter.

 

The Traveler

[Sunday21]

https://askgramps.org/judas-being-a-son-of-perdition/

If you search under the topical guide for Judas, it takes you to ‘son of perdition’. I was surprised when I joined the church to find this attitude because the Protestant churchs that I had visited considered him to have been deceived. Thinking about this issue though I suspect that the difference is one of a cultural interpretation. Where I live bad behaviour tends to be interpreted as a moment of weakness or something that you grow out of. Illegal immigration tends to be forgiven over time. Jail sentences are not as severe. There is no ‘three strikes’ approach to law breaking.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Sunday21

[Vort]

39 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

https://askgramps.org/judas-being-a-son-of-perdition/

If you search under the topical guide for Judas, it takes you to ‘son of perdition’. I was surprised when I joined the church to find this attitude because the Protestant church’s that I had visited considered him to have been deceived. Thinking about this issue though I suspect that the difference is one of a cultural interpretation. Where I live bad behaviour tends to be interpreted as a moment of weakness or something that you grow out of. Illegal immigration tends to be forgiven over time. Jail sentences are not as severe. There is no ‘three strikes’ approach to law breaking.

John 17:12 seems to indicate that Judas was "lost", which is the meaning of the word "perdition". But I don't see that use "son of perdition" as necessarily meaning that Judas committed the unpardonable sin and gave himself wholeheartedly to Satan. The very fact that he hanged himself seems to demonstrate, in an awful way, remorse for his betrayal of Jesus. Judas was certainly held in low esteem and perhaps even contempt by the other apostles after his death, as when John openly calls him a "thief" (John 12:6). I don't know that Judas' final state before God is a settled point of doctrine.

It's worth noting that Catholic tradition condemns Judas to hell. Dante's Inferno portrays Judas, along with Brutus and Cassius (who betrayed Julius Caesar), as one who is eternally chewed in the mouth of Satan. (Satan has three faces in the Inferno, I suppose in mockery of the Catholic idea of the "holy Trinity".)

[Rob Osborn]

Judas is a son of perdition. He sold the Savior for money. No forgiveness. His awful situation afterwards leading to his own death is the end rewards of sin. Its part of that inescapable guilt and sentence pronounced upon the wicked.

[Anddenex]

These quotes come from Lds.org pertaining to Judas Iscariot, and I find Joseph Fielding Smith's quote very interesting. Elder Holland's quote appears to back up what @Traveler said, "As near as I can determine the fate of Judas Iscariot lies with Judas and the L-rd."

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The Greek word from which “perdition” is translated (apōleia) indicates a condition of being lost or destroyed. Elsewhere in the New Testament, apōleia is translated as “destruction” (Matthew 7:13; Romans 9:22), “waste” (Matthew 26:8; Mark 14:4), and “damnation” (2 Peter 2:3). These terms seem appropriate as applied to Judas Iscariot. Speaking of the condition of Judas Iscariot, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said:

“We know the divine plan required Jesus to be crucified, but it is wrenching to think that one of His special witnesses who sat at His feet, heard Him pray, watched Him heal, and felt His touch could betray Him and all that He was for 30 pieces of silver. Never in the history of this world has so little money purchased so much infamy. We are not the ones to judge Judas’s fate, but Jesus said of His betrayer, ‘Good [were it] for that man if he had not been born.’ [Matthew 26:24]” (“None Were with Him,” Ensign or Liahona, May 2009, 86). (emphasis added)

President Joseph F. Smith (1838–1918) wrote about whether or not Judas is a son of perdition, after first referring to Doctrine and Covenants 76:31–37, 43, which describes the knowledge that must be understood and then rejected by those who become sons of perdition: “That Judas did partake of all this knowledge—that these great truths had been revealed to him—that he had received the Holy Spirit by the gift of God, and was therefore qualified to commit the unpardonable sin, is not at all clear to me. To my mind it strongly appears that not one of the disciples possessed sufficient light, knowledge nor wisdom, at the time of the crucifixion, for either exaltation or condemnation; for it was afterward that their minds were opened to understand the scriptures, and that they were endowed with power from on high; without which they were only children in knowledge, in comparison to what they afterwards became under the influence of the Spirit” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 433). (Source) (emphasis added)

 

 

 

[Rob Osborn]

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (John 17:12)

32 But behold, it sorroweth me because of the fourth generation from this generation, for they are led away captive by him even as was the son of perdition; for they will sell me for silver and for gold, and for that which moth doth corrupt and which thieves can break through and steal. And in that day will I visit them, even in turning their works upon their own heads. (3 Nephi 27:32)

Both of these scriptures are in direct reference to Judas. There is no forgiveness for Judas, he is a son of perdition.

[JohnsonJones]

Rob beat me to the direct scriptural reference to Judas Iscariot in the Book of Mormon.

Part of understanding WHY a Son of Perdition will receive no forgiveness is to understand first what prevents the Son of Perdition from receiving it in the first place.  I don't think most understand that idea.

I may not even understand it...HOWEVER...from the little I try to understand it is NOT because they cannot receive forgiveness, but they refuse to receive forgiveness.  They REJECT the Lord, and in doing so all that he offers to the point that if given the choice they would rather destroy him and kill him if given the opportunity, to destroy him and all that he offers rather than to accept it themselves.  They are so fallen that knowing who and what he is, they chose instead to try to destroy him and the plan of salvation along with him, thus trying to condemn all mankind and have allied themselves with the destroyer...and as such, as with the 1/3 host of heaven that also allied themselves with the destroyer and became his army, thus also are the Sons of Perdition.

PS: That of course questions on the sorry Judas felt, various translations have input the translator's thoughts...some saying he was sorry for the deed he did after he saw the punishment that was given down to the Lord.  Others leave that open to interpretation.  I would think it would be more along the lines of the sorrow that Cain felt.  Was Cain sorry...I think he was...but was it because of the deed he did, or the consequences?  In truth...I don't know all the answers, but we do have the scriptures.

The story of Judas, in either way, is one of tragedy, and if one views it more from a Middle Eastern perspective, one can view it in some ways as the opposite, or mirror story to that of the Lord.  While the Lord is betrayed and is killed and rises from the dead, the other character, that of Judas, is the one who betrays and gains, but then from that dies and falls (as per what we find out later) and bursts asunder (after probably hanging himself).  While one rises, the other falls...which is the exact opposite of what we would normally expect (the one who is killed of men remains dead while the one who gets the money lives...instead...we see the one who is killed lives again...and the one who got money is the one who dies).

Edited January 20, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[JohnsonJones]

8 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (John 17:12)

32 But behold, it sorroweth me because of the fourth generation from this generation, for they are led away captive by him even as was the son of perdition; for they will sell me for silver and for gold, and for that which moth doth corrupt and which thieves can break through and steal. And in that day will I visit them, even in turning their works upon their own heads. (3 Nephi 27:32)

Both of these scriptures are in direct reference to Judas. There is no forgiveness for Judas, he is a son of perdition.

Also, to better back you up in regards to the scriptures...

Matthew 26: 20-25

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²⁰ Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

²¹ And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

²² And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?

²³ And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.

²⁴ The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

²⁵ Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

D&C 76: 31-38

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31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

Now, everything indicates that Judas is condemned...but as some prophets and apostles state, in the end it is between the Lord and Judas.

The Book of Luke indicates that Judas had some sorrow of some sort over the entire affair and his part of it.  Was that enough for him to accept the atonement, or was it enough to enable him to be saved?  Was it even sorrow in the manner that we may think, one that leads to repentence, or was it simply sorry like the sort of the person who does not like the consequences of their crimes or mistakes...but would do it all again if given the chance?  I don't know.  We have the scriptures and what they say, but as one that should have hope for all men, the best answer is that the final judgment is always left up to the Lord and not to us.

[Rob Osborn]

58 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Also, to better back you up in regards to the scriptures...

Matthew 26: 20-25

D&C 76: 31-38

Now, everything indicates that Judas is condemned...but as some prophets and apostles state, in the end it is between the Lord and Judas.

The Book of Luke indicates that Judas had some sorrow of some sort over the entire affair and his part of it.  Was that enough for him to accept the atonement, or was it enough to enable him to be saved?  Was it even sorrow in the manner that we may think, one that leads to repentence, or was it simply sorry like the sort of the person who does not like the consequences of their crimes or mistakes...but would do it all again if given the chance?  I don't know.  We have the scriptures and what they say, but as one that should have hope for all men, the best answer is that the final judgment is always left up to the Lord and not to us.

Yes, final judgement is up to the Lord. The Lord has already judged Judas as a son of perdition. We somehow think it unfair to say Judas is a son of perdition because of this or that reason but the truth of it is they meet the very criteria, that same criteria that caused a 1/3 of Gods children to also choose Satan over God.

There comes a point of no return at a certain point. Judas was well beyond the point of no return. When one is willing to trade the love of a dearly beloved for money or stature it is a sure sign they are indeed evil and corrupt in their heart.