• Announcements

    • Heather

      Mormon Hub Rules - Please be familiar with these rules before posting   04/17/08

        Any views expressed on Mormon Hub are independent of and do not represent the views of Mormon Hub, More Good Foundation, or Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Site Rules 1. Do not post, upload, or otherwise submit anything to the site that is derogatory towards The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its teachings, or its leaders. Anti-LDS Propaganda will not be tolerated anywhere. 2. Please be conscious of the fact that although Mormon Hub is aimed towards an LDS audience, that the membership of this site consists of friends from an array of different backgrounds, beliefs, and cultures. Please be respectful and courteous to all, and know that everyone who is willing to follow the Rules and Terms of Mormon Hub are welcome to participate and be a member of Mormon Hub. Keep in mind that anything posted, uploaded, or otherwise displayed on the site should be understandable to friends of other faiths as well as to members. Please define any LDS vocabulary that friends of other faiths may not understand (i.e. Mutual, Relief Society, and Deacon.) 3. Personal attacks, name calling, flaming, and judgments against other members will not be tolerated. 4. No bickering and nit-picking toward others. Realize that sometimes it is very difficult to be able to express how one feels through written words. Please be courteous and ask for a further explanation, rather then trying to attack and find holes in someone else's post. 5. No cursing or crude language. Any swearing, including filter skipping, will result in an automatic one week suspension. 6. Posting issues you have with a moderator or administrator anywhere on the site will not be allowed. Please follow the chain of authority if you have any concerns. Any such posts will be removed and the poster will be subject to the consequences of breaking the rules. List of site moderators Course of action that should be taken if you have a concern: - Send a message directly to the moderator you have a concern about. If you are unable to work out the problem then, - Send a message to the head moderators. - If after you have approached both avenues, you may then send a message to Heather; however know that Heather is very unlikely to over rule anything that has been sanctioned by the moderators and head moderators. 7. Multiple accounts are not allowed and will result in all accounts being banned from the site. 8. Please do not share any "true" or "faith promoting" stories, unless you can verify the source. 9. Do not post any copyrighted material, unless the copyright is owned by you. 10. Bigoted/racial/ethnic comments will not be tolerated. Political Neutrality Policy More Good Foundation, as a nonprofit foundation, must remain neutral with respect to partisan politics and candidate campaigns for public office. The foundation encourages its members and staff to be informed about political issues and to be engaged in civic life; however, it does not endorse or oppose any political parties, candidates, or platforms. Mormon Hub will allow political discussion, also long as all posts remain neutral with respect to partisan politics and candidate campaigns for public office. You may not use the site to show support, endorse, oppose or sanction any candidate. In addition, all posts must be respectful and sensitive to readers of all political beliefs and backgrounds. Any post that violates any of the above conditions will be dealt with according to the consequences of breaking the rules. As a non-profit organization, 501©3, we are governed by legal constraints relative to writing, blogging, or otherwise endorsing any candidate running for political office. The law states, in effect, that no one acting on behalf of the nonprofit can intervene directly or indirectly in the election process by endorsing a political candidate. Any post that speaks favorably about one candidate, even in a religious context, can be construed as indirect intervention in the election process. While journalists are presently exempt from this provision, bloggers and forum-members are not. 12. You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this site to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. 13. You will not use this site to solicit the sale of any product, service or website. You will not use this site to promote a money making venture or contest. If appropriate, you may post a link to your personal website or to your business on your profile, in your forum signature, and you make create one post in the web link section of the forum. Do not post any link or discuss any business, service, or website that violates any rule of Mormon Hub. Mormon Hub is not responsible for the content of any site linked on Mormon Hub. Consequences to these rules could result in the following, and are determined on a case by case basis. Anything that an Administrator or Moderator determines is more than just an infraction of the rules, will result in immediate banning from the site and/or legal action: First infraction will result in a warning and a message from a moderator on what rule was broken. Second infraction will result in a one week suspension followed by a two week moderator post approval Third infraction will result in banned from the site for good. Any topic, message, video, music, image, or other upload or submission to the site that breaks any rules will be deleted. Please remember that we are not responsible for anything posted or uploaded. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message or upload. We are not responsible for the contents of any message, video, image, post or upload. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Mormon Hub , More Good Foundation, or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact the Administration immediately by Private Message, Email, or Report a Post. We will make every effort to remove objectionable messages and uploads within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary. Mormon Hub Terms of Use Agreement January 8, 2008 Mormon Hub is a social networking service that allows Members to create unique personal profiles online in order to find and communicate with old and new friends. Mormon Hub refers to "Mormon Hub or its proprietors." The services offered by Mormon Hub ("Mormon Hub" or "we") include the Mormon Hub website (the "Mormon Hub Website"), the Mormon Hub Internet messaging service, and any other features, content, or applications offered from time to time by Mormon Hub in connection with the Mormon Hub Website (collectively, the "Mormon Hub Services"). The Mormon Hub Services are hosted in the U.S. This Terms of Use Agreement ("Agreement") sets forth the legally binding terms for your use of the Mormon Hub Services. By using the Mormon Hub Services, you agree to be bound by this Agreement, whether you are a "Visitor" (which means that you simply browse the Mormon Hub Website) or you are a "Member" (which means that you have registered with Mormon Hub). The term "User" refers to a Visitor or a Member. You are only authorized to use the Mormon Hub Services (regardless of whether your access or use is intended) if you agree to abide by all applicable laws and to this Agreement. Please read this Agreement carefully and save it. If you do not agree with it, you should leave the Mormon Hub Website and discontinue use of the Mormon Hub Services immediately. If you wish to become a Member, communicate with other Members and make use of the Mormon Hub Services, you must read this Agreement and indicate your acceptance during the Registration process. This Agreement includes Mormon Hub's policy for acceptable use of the Mormon Hub Services and Content posted on the Mormon Hub Website, your rights, obligations and restrictions regarding your use of the Mormon Hub Services and Mormon Hub's Privacy Policy. In order to participate in certain Mormon Hub Services, you may be notified that you are required to download software or content and/or agree to additional terms and conditions. Unless otherwise provided by the additional terms and conditions applicable to the Mormon Hub Services in which you choose to participate, those additional terms are hereby incorporated into this Agreement.  Mormon Hub may modify this Agreement from time to time and such modification shall be effective upon posting by Mormon Hub on the Mormon Hub Website. You agree to be bound to any changes to this Agreement when you use the Mormon Hub Services after any such modification is posted. It is therefore important that you review this Agreement regularly to ensure you are updated as to any changes. Please choose carefully the information you post on Mormon Hub and that you provide to other Users. You may NOT include any of the following information anywhere on Mormon Hub, including private messages: telephone numbers, street addresses, last names, and any photographs containing nudity, or obscene, lewd, excessively violent, harassing, sexually explicit or otherwise objectionable subject matter. Email addresses should NEVER be posted to the general public. Despite this prohibition, information provided by other Mormon Hub Members (for instance, in their Profile) may contain inaccurate, inappropriate, offensive or sexually explicit material, products or services, and Mormon Hub assumes no responsibility or liability for this material. If you become aware of misuse of the Mormon Hub Services by any person, please contact Mormon Hub or click on the "Report Inappropriate Content" link at the bottom of any Mormon Hub page. Mormon Hub reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to moderate, reject, refuse to post or remove any posting (including private messages) by you, or to restrict, suspend, or terminate your access to all or any part of the Mormon Hub Services at any time, for any or no reason, with or without prior notice, and without liability. Mormon Hub expressly reserves the right to remove your profile and/or restrict, suspend, or terminate your access to any part of Mormon Hub Services if Mormon Hub determines, in its sole discretion, that you pose a threat to Mormon Hub and/or its Users. Mormon Hub reserves the right to ask a member to change their username if it is found to be offensive or can be perceived as offensive. Due to the sacredness, this would include any usernames that include, Jesus, Christ, God, Lord, names of Prophets, General authorities etc. The names of personal or business websites, blogs, etc. to promote said sites is also prohibited. Using names of political figures or party affiliation is also prohibited. 1. Eligibility. Use of and Membership in the Mormon Hub Services is void where prohibited. By using the Mormon Hub Services, you represent and warrant that (a) all registration information you submit is truthful and accurate; ( B) you will maintain the accuracy of such information; © you are 14 years of age or older; and (d) your use of the Mormon Hub Services does not violate any applicable law or regulation. Your profile may be deleted and your Membership may be terminated without warning, if we believe that you are under 13 years of age. 2. Term. This Agreement shall remain in full force and effect while you use the Mormon Hub Services or are a Member. You may terminate your Membership at any time, for any reason, emailing an admin. Mormon Hub may terminate your Membership at any time, without warning. Even after Membership is terminated, this Agreement will remain in effect, including sections 5-17. 3. Password. When you sign up to become a Member, you will also be asked to choose a password. You are entirely responsible for maintaining the confidentiality of your password. You agree not to use the account, username, or password of another Member at any time or to disclose your password to any third party. You agree to notify Mormon Hub immediately if you suspect any unauthorized use of your account or access to your password. You are solely responsible for any and all use of your account. 4. Non-commercial Use by Members. The Mormon Hub Services are for the personal use of Members only and may not be used in connection with any commercial endeavors except those that are specifically endorsed or approved by Mormon Hub. Illegal and/or unauthorized use of the Mormon Hub Services, including collecting usernames and/or email addresses of Members by electronic or other means for the purpose of sending unsolicited email or unauthorized framing of or linking to the Mormon Hub Website is prohibited. Commercial advertisements, affiliate links, and other forms of solicitation may be removed from Member profiles without notice and may result in termination of Membership privileges. Appropriate legal action will be taken for any illegal or unauthorized use of the Mormon Hub Services. 5. Proprietary Rights in Content on Mormon Hub. Mormon Hub does not claim any ownership rights in the text, files, images, photos, video, sounds, musical works, works of authorship, or any other materials (collectively, "Content") that you post to the Mormon Hub Services. After posting your Content to the Mormon Hub Services, you continue to retain all ownership rights in such Content, and you continue to have the right to use your Content in any way you choose. By displaying or publishing ("posting") any Content on or through the Mormon Hub Services, you hereby grant to Mormon Hub a limited license to use, modify, publicly perform, publicly display, reproduce, and distribute such Content solely on and through the Mormon Hub Services.
      Without this license, Mormon Hub would be unable to provide the Mormon Hub Services. For example, without the right to modify Member Content, Mormon Hub would not be able to digitally compress music files that Members submit or otherwise format Content to satisfy technical requirements, and without the right to publicly perform Member Content, Mormon Hub could not allow Users to listen to music posted by Members. The license you grant to Mormon Hub is non-exclusive (meaning you are free to license your Content to anyone else in addition to Mormon Hub), fully-paid and royalty-free (meaning that Mormon Hub is not required to pay you for the use on the Mormon Hub Services of the Content that you post), sublicensable (so that Mormon Hub is able to use its affiliates and subcontractors such as Internet content delivery networks to provide the Mormon Hub Services), and worldwide (because the Internet and the Mormon Hub Services are global in reach). This license will terminate at the time you remove your Content from the Mormon Hub Services. The license does not grant Mormon Hub the right to sell your Content, nor does the license grant Mormon Hub the right to distribute your Content outside of the Mormon Hub Services. You represent and warrant that: (i) you own the Content posted by you on or through the Mormon Hub Services or otherwise have the right to grant the license set forth in this section, and (ii) the posting of your Content on or through the Mormon Hub Services does not violate the privacy rights, publicity rights, copyrights, contract rights or any other rights of any person. You agree to pay for all royalties, fees, and any other monies owing any person by reason of any Content posted by you to or through the LDS.Mormon Hub Services. The Mormon Hub Services contain Content of Mormon Hub ("Mormon Hub Content"). Mormon Hub Content is protected by copyright, trademark, patent, trade secret and other laws, and Mormon Hub owns and retains all rights in the Mormon Hub Content and the Mormon Hub Services. Mormon Hub hereby grants you a limited, revocable, nonsublicensable license to reproduce and display the Mormon Hub Content (excluding any software code) solely for your personal use in connection with viewing the Mormon Hub Website and using the Mormon Hub Services. The Mormon Hub Services contain Content of Users and other Mormon Hub licensors. Except for Content posted by you, you may not copy, modify, translate, publish, broadcast, transmit, distribute, perform, display, or sell any Content appearing on or through the Mormon Hub Services.   6. Content Posted. Mormon Hub may delete any Content that in the sole judgment of Mormon Hub violates this Agreement or which may be offensive, illegal or violate the rights, harm, or threaten the safety of any person. Mormon Hub assumes no responsibility for monitoring the Mormon Hub Services for inappropriate Content or conduct. If at any time Mormon Hub chooses, in its sole discretion, to monitor the Mormon Hub Services, Mormon Hub nonetheless assumes no responsibility for the Content, no obligation to modify or remove any inappropriate Content, and no responsibility for the conduct of the User submitting any such Content. You are solely responsible for the Content that you post on or through any of the Mormon Hub Services, and any material or information that you transmit to other Members and for your interactions with other Users. Mormon Hub does not endorse and has no control over the Content. Content is not necessarily reviewed by Mormon Hub prior to posting and does not necessarily reflect the opinions or policies of Mormon Hub. Mormon Hub makes no warranties, express or implied, as to the Content or to the accuracy and reliability of the Content or any material or information that you transmit to other Members.   7. Content/Activity Prohibited. The following is a partial list of the kind of Content that is illegal or prohibited to post on or through the Mormon Hub Services.Mormon Hub reserves the right to investigate and take appropriate legal action against anyone who, in Mormon Hub's sole discretion, violates this provision, including without limitation, removing the offending communication from the Mormon Hub Services and terminating the Membership of such violators. Prohibited Content includes, but is not limited to Content that, in the sole discretion of Mormon Hub: is patently offensive and promotes racism, bigotry, hatred or physical harm of any kind against any group or individual; harasses or advocates harassment of another person; exploits people in a sexual or violent manner; contains nudity, violence, or offensive subject matter or contains a link to an adult website; solicits personal information from anyone; provides any telephone numbers, street addresses, last names, URLs or email addresses; promotes information that you know is false or misleading or promotes illegal activities or conduct that is abusive, threatening, obscene, defamatory or libelous; promotes an illegal or unauthorized copy of another person's copyrighted work, such as providing pirated computer programs or links to them, providing information to circumvent manufacture-installed copy-protect devices, or providing pirated music or links to pirated music files; involves the transmission of "junk mail," "chain letters," or unsolicited mass mailing, instant messaging, "spimming," or "spamming"; contains restricted or password only access pages or hidden pages or images (those not linked to or from another accessible page); furthers or promotes any criminal activity or enterprise or provides instructional information about illegal activities including, but not limited to making or buying illegal weapons, violating someone's privacy, or providing or creating computer viruses; solicits passwords or personal identifying information for commercial or unlawful purposes from other Users; involves commercial activities and/or sales without our prior written consent such as contests, sweepstakes, barter, advertising, or pyramid schemes; includes a photograph of another person that you have posted without that person's consent; or uses sexually suggestive imagery or any other unfair, misleading or deceptive Content intended to draw traffic to the profile.
      The following is a partial list of the kind of activity that is illegal or prohibited on the Mormon Hub Website and through your use of the Mormon Hub Services. Mormon Hub reserves the right to investigate and take appropriate legal action against anyone who, in Mormon Hub's sole discretion, violates this provision, including without limitation, reporting you to law enforcement authorities. Prohibited activity includes, but is not limited to: criminal or tortuous activity, including child pornography, fraud, trafficking in obscene material, drug dealing, gambling, harassment, stalking, spamming, spimming, sending of viruses or other harmful files, copyright infringement, patent infringement, or theft of trade secrets; advertising to, or solicitation of, any Member to buy or sell any products or services through the Mormon Hub Services. You may not transmit any chain letters or junk email to other Members. It is also a violation of these rules to use any information obtained from the Mormon Hub Services in order to contact, advertise to, solicit, or sell to any Member without their prior explicit consent. In order to protect our Members from such advertising or solicitation, Mormon Hub reserves the right to restrict the number of emails which a Member may send to other Members in any 24-hour period to a number which Mormon Hub deems appropriate in its sole discretion. If you breach this Agreement and send unsolicited bulk email, instant messages or other unsolicited communications of any kind through the Mormon Hub Services, you acknowledge that you will have caused substantial harm to Mormon Hub, but that the amount of such harm would be extremely difficult to ascertain. As a reasonable estimation of such harm, you agree to pay Mormon Hub $50 for each such unsolicited email or other unsolicited communication you send through the Mormon Hub Services; covering or obscuring the banner advertisements on your personal profile page, or any Mormon Hub page via HTML/CSS or any other means; any automated use of the system, such as using scripts to add friends or send comments or messages; interfering with, disrupting, or creating an undue burden on the Mormon Hub Services or the networks or services connected to the Mormon Hub Services; attempting to impersonate another Member or person; copying the code for your Mormon Hub Player and embedding it into other profiles or asking other Members to embed it into their profiles; using the account, username, or password of another Member at any time or disclosing your password to any third party or permitting any third party to access your account; selling or otherwise transferring your profile; using any information obtained from the Mormon Hub Services in order to harass, abuse, or harm another person; displaying an advertisement on your profile, or accepting payment or anything of value from a third person in exchange for your performing any commercial activity on or through the Mormon Hub Services on behalf of that person, such as placing commercial content on your profile, posting blogs or bulletins with a commercial purpose, selecting a profile with a commercial purpose as one of your "Top" friends, or sending private messages with a commercial purpose; or using the Mormon Hub Services in a manner inconsistent with any and all applicable laws and regulations.   8. Copyright Policy. You may not post, modify, distribute, or reproduce in any way any copyrighted material, trademarks, or other proprietary information belonging to others without obtaining the prior written consent of the owner of such proprietary rights. It is the policy of Mormon Hub to terminate Membership privileges of any Member who repeatedly infringes the copyright rights of others upon receipt of proper notification to Mormon Hub by the copyright owner or the copyright owner's legal agent. Without limiting the foregoing, if you believe that your work has been copied and posted on the Mormon Hub Services in a way that constitutes copyright infringement, please provide our Copyright Agent with the following information: (i) an electronic or physical signature of the person authorized to act on behalf of the owner of the copyright interest; (ii) a description of the copyrighted work that you claim has been infringed; (iii) a description of where the material that you claim is infringing is located on the Mormon Hub Services; (iv) your address, telephone number, and email address; (v) a written statement by you that you have a good faith belief that the disputed use is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law; (vi) a statement by you, made under penalty of perjury, that the above information in your notice is accurate and that you are the copyright owner or authorized to act on the copyright owner's behalf. 9. Member Disputes. You are solely responsible for your interactions with other Mormon Hub Members. Mormon Hub reserves the right, but has no obligation, to monitor disputes between you and other Members. 10. Privacy. Use of the Mormon Hub Services is also governed by our Privacy Policy, which is incorporated into this Agreement by this reference. 11. Disclaimers. Mormon Hub is not responsible for any incorrect or inaccurate Content posted on the Mormon Hub Website or in connection with the Mormon Hub Services, whether caused by Users of the Mormon Hub Services or by any of the equipment or programming associated with or utilized in the Mormon Hub Services. Profiles created and posted by Members on the Mormon Hub Website may contain links to other websites. Mormon Hub is not responsible for the Content, accuracy or opinions expressed on such websites, and such websites are in no way investigated, monitored or checked for accuracy or completeness by Mormon Hub. Inclusion of any linked website on the Mormon Hub Services does not imply approval or endorsement of the linked website by Mormon Hub. When you access these third-party sites, you do so at your own risk. Mormon Hub takes no responsibility for third party advertisements which are posted on this Mormon Hub Website or through the Mormon Hub Services, nor does it take any responsibility for the goods or services provided by its advertisers. Mormon Hub is not responsible for the conduct, whether online or offline, of any User of the Mormon Hub Services.Mormon Hub assumes no responsibility for any error, omission, interruption, deletion, defect, delay in operation or transmission, communications line failure, theft or destruction or unauthorized access to, or alteration of, any User or Member communication. Mormon Hub is not responsible for any problems or technical malfunction of any telephone network or lines, computer online systems, servers or providers, computer equipment, software, failure of any email or players due to technical problems or traffic congestion on the Internet or on any of the Mormon Hub Services or combination thereof, including any injury or damage to Users or to any person's computer related to or resulting from participation or downloading materials in connection with the Mormon Hub Services. Under no circumstances shall Mormon Hub be responsible for any loss or damage, including personal injury or death, resulting from use of the Mormon Hub Services, attendance at a Mormon Hub event, from any Content posted on or through the Mormon Hub Services, or from the conduct of any Users of the Mormon Hub Services, whether online or offline. The Mormon Hub Services are provided "AS-IS" and as available and Mormon Hub expressly disclaims any warranty of fitness for a particular purpose or non-infringement. Mormon Hub cannot guarantee and does not promise any specific results from use of the Mormon Hub Services. 12. Limitation on Liability. IN NO EVENT SHALL MORMON HUB BE LIABLE TO YOU OR ANY THIRD PARTY FOR ANY INDIRECT, CONSEQUENTIAL, EXEMPLARY, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL OR PUNITIVE DAMAGES, INCLUDING LOST PROFIT DAMAGES ARISING FROM YOUR USE OF THE SERVICES, EVEN IF MORMON HUB HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. NOTWITHSTANDING ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY CONTAINED HEREIN, MORMON HUB'S LIABILITY TO YOU FOR ANY CAUSE WHATSOEVER AND REGARDLESS OF THE FORM OF THE ACTION, WILL AT ALL TIMES BE LIMITED TO THE AMOUNT PAID, IF ANY, BY YOU TO MORMON HUB FOR THE MORMON HUB SERVICES DURING THE TERM OF MEMBERSHIP. 13. U.S. Export Controls. Software available in connection with the Mormon Hub Services (the "Software") is further subject to United States export controls. No Software may be downloaded from the Mormon Hub Services or otherwise exported or re-exported in violation of U.S. export laws. Downloading or using the Software is at your sole risk. 14. Disputes. If there is any dispute about or involving the Mormon Hub Services, you agree that the dispute shall be governed by the laws of the State of Utah, USA, without regard to conflict of law provisions and you agree to exclusive personal jurisdiction and venue in the state and federal courts of the United States located in the State of Utah, City of Orem. Either Mormon Hub or you may demand that any dispute between Mormon Hub and you about or involving the Mormon Hub Services must be settled by arbitration utilizing the dispute resolution procedures of the American Arbitration Association (AAA) in Orem, Utah, USA, provided that the foregoing shall not prevent Mormon Hub from seeking injunctive relief in a court of competent jurisdiction. 15. Indemnity. You agree to indemnify and hold Mormon Hub, its subsidiaries, and affiliates, and their respective officers, agents, partners and employees, harmless from any loss, liability, claim, or demand, including reasonable attorneys' fees, made by any third party due to or arising out of your use of the Mormon Hub Services in violation of this Agreement and/or arising from a breach of this Agreement and/or any breach of your representations and warranties set forth above and/or if any Content that you post on theMormon Hub Website or through the Mormon Hub Services causes Mormon Hub to be liable to another. 16. Other. This Agreement is accepted upon your use of the Mormon Hub Website or any of the Mormon Hub Services and is further affirmed by you becoming a Member. This Agreement constitutes the entire agreement between you and Mormon Hub regarding the use of the Mormon Hub Services. The failure of Mormon Hub to exercise or enforce any right or provision of this Agreement shall not operate as a waiver of such right or provision. The section titles in this Agreement are for convenience only and have no legal or contractual effect. Mormon Hub is a trademark of Mormon Hub, Inc. This Agreement operates to the fullest extent permissible by law. If any provision of this Agreement is unlawful, void or unenforceable, that provision is deemed severable from this Agreement and does not affect the validity and enforceability of any remaining provisions. Please contact us at: Contact Mormon Hub with any questions regarding this Agreement.   Use the online HTML tidy to compose similar articles in your web browser.
    • rpframe

      IMPORTANT!! -- Login Issues   09/12/17

      TL;DR; In order to fix login issues, a lot of people will have to reset their password. As of now, if you are unable to login, please attempt a "Forgot Password"/"Password Reset" (check your spam folder) and if that doesn't work then feel free to Contact Us, for help and please check back on this post for any status updates and FAQs as we go through this process. FAQ:
      [Reserved Space]
      Firstly, I'd like to apologize on behalf of MormonHub for the frustration of the login system. There is a lot of cool things we could do with the login system, and having the logins synced up between our forum system and our front end system has been nice, but for multiple reasons (not just the current login issues), we have decided to move back to the earlier login system. While I would love to be able to migrate everyone's current passwords back, but the systems are just not compatible that way. So a large number of users will need to do a password reset. We realize that we forced everyone to do this on the move to the new system, and we sincerely apologize to everyone that will have to do it again. The Login System has now been swapped over. Give us a little bit of time to work out kinks in the system (will post updates here). If you are unable to login anymore, then please perform a password reset (check spam folder) and if that fails and we don't have any acknowledgement of problems on this post (No known problems at this time), then feel free to contact us (keeping in mind that there are a lot of you and very few of us).
Seeker of truth

Forgiveness and degrees of glory

Recommended Posts

Growing up in the church, graduating from seminary, serving a mission and remaining active all of my life even to this day (I’m 47) it has always been my understanding and belief that if you repent of your sins you'll be forgiven, made clean AND more importantly if you do repent you will inherit the celestial kingdom.

Recently re-reading the miracle of forgiveness and coming across the following teachings found in the gospel doctrine manual that I’ll share I am confused now if my understanding has been wrong all of this time.

From the following statements they seem to be saying that every person that inherits any degree of glory, telestial, terrestrial, or celestial are forgiven for their sins. 

After reading the following excerpts I would like to know your thoughts on the following question. The D&C dilineates which sins go to which kingdom of glory. It was always my impression those were people who didn’t repent of those sins. And that those who repented went to the celestial kingdom. My new understanding is that all people that go to any degree of glory, including telestial and terrestrial are forgiven of their sins, made clean, but still consigned to those lesser kingdoms based upon the seriousness of the sins they committed. Is this so?

Please read the following excerpts from the Gospel doctrine manual regarding King David and Joseph Smith’s statement found in Miracle of Forgiveness and give me your thoughts.

Gospel Doctrine manual excerpts:

Matt 12
31 ¶ Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

———my original understanding over the years of this scripture is that they all CAN be forgiven...new understanding after following teachings is all WILL be forgiven———

(26-21) 2 Samuel 12:13. David Is Still Paying in Hell for His Sins
The Joseph Smith Translation says, “The Lord also hath not put away thy sin” (JST, 2 Samuel 12:13).
Elder Joseph Fielding Smith, commenting on David’s sin, said: “David committed a dreadful crime, and all his life afterwards sought for forgiveness. Some of the Psalms portray the anguish of his soul; yet David is still paying for his sin. He did not receive the resurrection at the time of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Peter declared that his body was still in the tomb, and the Prophet Joseph Smith has said, ‘David sought repentance at the hand of God carefully with tears, for the murder of Uriah; but !!!!he could only get it!!!! through hell: (my comment: does this indicate he repented and was forgiven?) he got a promise that his soul should not be left in hell.’ Again we ask: Who wishes to spend a term in hell with the devil before being cleansed from sin?” (Answers to Gospel Questions, 1:74.)

His repentant feelings were no doubt sincere, but he could not repent enough to restore the life of his friend, Uriah, nor the virtue of his wife. Though he later hoped and prayed that his soul would not be left forever in hell (the spirit prison), yet the eternal destiny of doers of such twin sins does not look good. (See Psalms 16 and 51; then see Hebrews 6:4–6; Revelation 22:14–15; D&C 132:27; 76:31–37; 29:41 and 42:18, 79.)” (Rasmussen, Introduction to the Old Testament, 1:185.)

Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained the limits of David’s eternal inheritance:
“Murderers are forgiven eventually but only in the sense that all sins are forgiven except the sin against the Holy Ghost; they are not forgiven in the sense that celestial salvation is made available to them. (Matt. 12:31–32; Teachings, pp. 356–357.) After they have paid the full penalty for their crime, they shall go on to a telestial inheritance. (Rev. 22:15.)” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 520.)


“From celestial to telestial—that is tragedy.”


“Murder is so treacherous and so far-reaching! Those who lose their possessions may be able to recover their wealth. Those defamed may still be able to prove themselves above reproach. Even the loss of chastity leaves the soul in mortality with opportunity to recover and repent and to make amends to some degree. But to take a life, whether someone else’s or one’s own, cuts off the victim’s experiences of mortality and thus his opportunity to repent, to keep God’s commandments in this earth life. It interferes with his potential of having ‘glory added upon [his head] for ever and ever.’ (Abraham 3:26.)” (Miracle of Forgiveness, pp. 195–96.)

END of excerpts found in the Gospel Doctrine manual.

From Miracle of Forgiveness excerpt:

“If a man commit adultery, he cannot receive the celestial kingdom of God. Even if he is saved in any kingdom, it cannot be the celestial kingdom.” Joseph Smith

Kimball goes on to explain that forgiveness can be had for adultery. Which I whole heartedly believe. However, my problem in my understanding now is...are they forgiven and consigned to telestial glory? I always believed if you repented and were forgiven you inherited celestial glory. But those preceding excerpts have me confused whether or not that is true. Those statements appear to me to show that King David repented and received forgiveness for his crimes but ultimately consigned a telestial glory. What am I missing? Or is that just how it is. 

So to summarize:

Am I to understand that King David “received repentance” was forgiven and still consigned to telestial kingdom. If so does that apply to all sins dilineateed in D&C for each kingdom, that those people in those kingdoms are forgiven of those sins but still consigned to that kingdom?

Or is my original belief that if you repent you will be forgiven (all but blasphemy against the Holy Ghost) and go to the celestial kingdom? If this is the case how do I rectify the apparent discrepancy between that belief and the excerpts shared above?

Edited by Seeker of truth
Misspelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Seeker of truth said:

Growing up in the church, graduating from seminary, serving a mission and remaining active all of my life even to this day (I’m 47) it has always been my understanding and belief that if you repent of your sins you'll be forgiven, made clean AND more importantly if you do repent you will inherit the celestial kingdom.

Recently re-reading the miracle of forgiveness and coming across the following teachings found in the gospel doctrine manual that I’ll share I am confused now if my understanding has been wrong all of this time.

From the following statements they seem to be saying that every person that inherits any degree of glory, telestial, terrestrial, or celestial are forgiven for their sins. 

After reading the following excerpts I would like to know your thoughts on the following question. The D&C dilineates which sins go to which kingdom of glory. It was always my impression those were people who didn’t repent of those sins. And that those who repented went to the celestial kingdom. My new understanding is that all people that go to any degree of glory, including telestial and terrestrial are forgiven of their sins, made clean, but still consigned to those lesser kingdoms based upon the seriousness of the sins they committed. Is this so?

Please read the following excerpts from the Gospel doctrine manual regarding King David and Joseph Smith’s statement found in Miracle of Forgiveness and give me your thoughts.

Gospel Doctrine manual excerpts:

Matt 12
31 ¶ Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

———my original understanding over the years of this scripture is that they all CAN be forgiven...new understanding after following teachings is all WILL be forgiven———

(26-21) 2 Samuel 12:13. David Is Still Paying in Hell for His Sins
The Joseph Smith Translation says, “The Lord also hath not put away thy sin” (JST, 2 Samuel 12:13).
Elder Joseph Fielding Smith, commenting on David’s sin, said: “David committed a dreadful crime, and all his life afterwards sought for forgiveness. Some of the Psalms portray the anguish of his soul; yet David is still paying for his sin. He did not receive the resurrection at the time of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Peter declared that his body was still in the tomb, and the Prophet Joseph Smith has said, ‘David sought repentance at the hand of God carefully with tears, for the murder of Uriah; but !!!!he could only get it!!!! through hell: (my comment: does this indicate he repented and was forgiven?) he got a promise that his soul should not be left in hell.’ Again we ask: Who wishes to spend a term in hell with the devil before being cleansed from sin?” (Answers to Gospel Questions, 1:74.)

His repentant feelings were no doubt sincere, but he could not repent enough to restore the life of his friend, Uriah, nor the virtue of his wife. Though he later hoped and prayed that his soul would not be left forever in hell (the spirit prison), yet the eternal destiny of doers of such twin sins does not look good. (See Psalms 16 and 51; then see Hebrews 6:4–6; Revelation 22:14–15; D&C 132:27; 76:31–37; 29:41 and 42:18, 79.)” (Rasmussen, Introduction to the Old Testament, 1:185.)

Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained the limits of David’s eternal inheritance:
“Murderers are forgiven eventually but only in the sense that all sins are forgiven except the sin against the Holy Ghost; they are not forgiven in the sense that celestial salvation is made available to them. (Matt. 12:31–32; Teachings, pp. 356–357.) After they have paid the full penalty for their crime, they shall go on to a telestial inheritance. (Rev. 22:15.)” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 520.)


“From celestial to telestial—that is tragedy.”


“Murder is so treacherous and so far-reaching! Those who lose their possessions may be able to recover their wealth. Those defamed may still be able to prove themselves above reproach. Even the loss of chastity leaves the soul in mortality with opportunity to recover and repent and to make amends to some degree. But to take a life, whether someone else’s or one’s own, cuts off the victim’s experiences of mortality and thus his opportunity to repent, to keep God’s commandments in this earth life. It interferes with his potential of having ‘glory added upon [his head] for ever and ever.’ (Abraham 3:26.)” (Miracle of Forgiveness, pp. 195–96.)

END of excerpts found in the Gospel Doctrine manual.

From Miracle of Forgiveness excerpt:

“If a man commit adultery, he cannot receive the celestial kingdom of God. Even if he is saved in any kingdom, it cannot be the celestial kingdom.” Joseph Smith

Kimball goes on to explain that forgiveness can be had for adultery. Which I whole heartedly believe. However, my problem in my understanding now is...are they forgiven and consigned to telestial glory? I always believed if you repented and were forgiven you inherited celestial glory. But those preceding excerpts have me confused whether or not that is true. Those statements appear to me to show that King David repented and received forgiveness for his crimes but ultimately consigned a telestial glory. What am I missing? Or is that just how it is. 

So to summarize:

Am I to understand that King David “received repentance” was forgiven and still consigned to telestial kingdom. If so does that apply to all sins dilineateed in D&C for each kingdom, that those people in those kingdoms are forgiven of those sins but still consigned to that kingdom?

Or is my original belief that if you repent you will be forgiven (all but blasphemy against the Holy Ghost) and go to the celestial kingdom? If this is the case how do I rectify the apparent discrepancy between that belief and the excerpts shared above?

My understanding:

It is ultimately God who judges where everyone goes based off of His perfect knowledge of circumstance, intent, and acts.

Generally, if you repent of your major sins IN THIS LIFE, and are constantly striving to repent of your minor sins, and are working towards perfection, you will go to the Celestial Kingdom, assuming you have accepted the saving ordinances offered by the Church.

If you do not repent of your major sins in this life, and wait until the next life to repent, they may prevent you from going to the Celestial Kingdom.  That is why you don't want to procrastinate the day of your repentance - waiting until the next life to repent of major sins (e.g., adultery) may result in you winding up in the Telestial kingdom.  Refusing to constantly improve and refusing to put in efforts to repent of minor sins may result in you going to the Terrestrial Kingdom due to becoming lukewarm.

There are some sins, such as murder, for which there is often no complete forgiveness, though.  Murderers can repent in the sense that they can be saved from outer darkness, but they may find that exaltation is impossible afterwards.  David found himself in this position.  Fortunately, there aren't many sins like this (only murder and denying the Holy Ghost come to mind).  So David is kind of a special case.

To answer your question about adultery, I think the general understanding in the Church is you can absolutely repent of adultery and be saved in the Celestial Kingdom.  Joseph Smith appears to be talking about unrepentant adulterers.  I don't have any references on me to back this up, but as far as I can tell, this is the widespread interpretation.

A more interesting question is the case of repeat adulterers - someone who commits adultery, repents fully, and then does it again.  I believe in the Miracle of Forgiveness (and I am remembering this book after reading it 20 years ago), it says that such repeat offenders may run into difficulties gaining exaltation having committed such a big sin, repented fully, and having then done it again, though debates on the subject in this forum say this may not be the case.  Hopefully a very rare situation!

Edited by DoctorLemon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Seeker of truth said:

Growing up in the church, graduating from seminary, serving a mission and remaining active all of my life even to this day (I’m 47) it has always been my understanding and belief that if you repent of your sins you'll be forgiven, made clean AND more importantly if you do repent you will inherit the celestial kingdom.

Recently re-reading the miracle of forgiveness and coming across the following teachings found in the gospel doctrine manual that I’ll share I am confused now if my understanding has been wrong all of this time.

From the following statements they seem to be saying that every person that inherits any degree of glory, telestial, terrestrial, or celestial are forgiven for their sins. 

After reading the following excerpts I would like to know your thoughts on the following question. The D&C dilineates which sins go to which kingdom of glory. It was always my impression those were people who didn’t repent of those sins. And that those who repented went to the celestial kingdom. My new understanding is that all people that go to any degree of glory, including telestial and terrestrial are forgiven of their sins, made clean, but still consigned to those lesser kingdoms based upon the seriousness of the sins they committed. Is this so?

Please read the following excerpts from the Gospel doctrine manual regarding King David and Joseph Smith’s statement found in Miracle of Forgiveness and give me your thoughts.

Gospel Doctrine manual excerpts:

Matt 12
31 ¶ Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

———my original understanding over the years of this scripture is that they all CAN be forgiven...new understanding after following teachings is all WILL be forgiven———

(26-21) 2 Samuel 12:13. David Is Still Paying in Hell for His Sins
The Joseph Smith Translation says, “The Lord also hath not put away thy sin” (JST, 2 Samuel 12:13).
Elder Joseph Fielding Smith, commenting on David’s sin, said: “David committed a dreadful crime, and all his life afterwards sought for forgiveness. Some of the Psalms portray the anguish of his soul; yet David is still paying for his sin. He did not receive the resurrection at the time of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Peter declared that his body was still in the tomb, and the Prophet Joseph Smith has said, ‘David sought repentance at the hand of God carefully with tears, for the murder of Uriah; but !!!!he could only get it!!!! through hell: (my comment: does this indicate he repented and was forgiven?) he got a promise that his soul should not be left in hell.’ Again we ask: Who wishes to spend a term in hell with the devil before being cleansed from sin?” (Answers to Gospel Questions, 1:74.)

His repentant feelings were no doubt sincere, but he could not repent enough to restore the life of his friend, Uriah, nor the virtue of his wife. Though he later hoped and prayed that his soul would not be left forever in hell (the spirit prison), yet the eternal destiny of doers of such twin sins does not look good. (See Psalms 16 and 51; then see Hebrews 6:4–6; Revelation 22:14–15; D&C 132:27; 76:31–37; 29:41 and 42:18, 79.)” (Rasmussen, Introduction to the Old Testament, 1:185.)

Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained the limits of David’s eternal inheritance:
“Murderers are forgiven eventually but only in the sense that all sins are forgiven except the sin against the Holy Ghost; they are not forgiven in the sense that celestial salvation is made available to them. (Matt. 12:31–32; Teachings, pp. 356–357.) After they have paid the full penalty for their crime, they shall go on to a telestial inheritance. (Rev. 22:15.)” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 520.)


“From celestial to telestial—that is tragedy.”


“Murder is so treacherous and so far-reaching! Those who lose their possessions may be able to recover their wealth. Those defamed may still be able to prove themselves above reproach. Even the loss of chastity leaves the soul in mortality with opportunity to recover and repent and to make amends to some degree. But to take a life, whether someone else’s or one’s own, cuts off the victim’s experiences of mortality and thus his opportunity to repent, to keep God’s commandments in this earth life. It interferes with his potential of having ‘glory added upon [his head] for ever and ever.’ (Abraham 3:26.)” (Miracle of Forgiveness, pp. 195–96.)

END of excerpts found in the Gospel Doctrine manual.

From Miracle of Forgiveness excerpt:

“If a man commit adultery, he cannot receive the celestial kingdom of God. Even if he is saved in any kingdom, it cannot be the celestial kingdom.” Joseph Smith

Kimball goes on to explain that forgiveness can be had for adultery. Which I whole heartedly believe. However, my problem in my understanding now is...are they forgiven and consigned to telestial glory? I always believed if you repented and were forgiven you inherited celestial glory. But those preceding excerpts have me confused whether or not that is true. Those statements appear to me to show that King David repented and received forgiveness for his crimes but ultimately consigned a telestial glory. What am I missing? Or is that just how it is. 

So to summarize:

Am I to understand that King David “received repentance” was forgiven and still consigned to telestial kingdom. If so does that apply to all sins dilineateed in D&C for each kingdom, that those people in those kingdoms are forgiven of those sins but still consigned to that kingdom?

Or is my original belief that if you repent you will be forgiven (all but blasphemy against the Holy Ghost) and go to the celestial kingdom? If this is the case how do I rectify the apparent discrepancy between that belief and the excerpts shared above?

Ah, now you are seeing the same contradictions that I too saw some twenty years ago and brought me to a different belief system to where I am at today, and yet still being an active supporting LDS.

It is a fact (in my opinion) that our doctrine we teach concerning the plan of salvation is flawed, and in a grand paramount way. The Book of Mormon is the cornerstone of our religion. In it we learn of the plan of salvation. It teaches that to avoid the eternal hell one must repent of all their sins and be baptized into the Kingdom of heaven. There are only two outcomes in this plan- heaven, or, hell. This is also the same plan as taught in the New Testament, Pearl of Great Price, and portions of the D&C.

Then Joseph Smith brought along the kingdoms of glory and with it a myriad of problems, paradoxes and contradictions. I believe he really did have a vision only his deciphering of that vision is in error. Yes, these are all my opinions which do indeed run contrary to official doctrine. Nevertheless I know our doctrine has a major flaw that needs addressing. 

Our doctrine teaches that one can be saved in a lower kingdom without baptism. We also teach that they are cleansed by their own suffering. These are false teachings though. One cannot ever be saved eternally from hell without repentance and baptism. So, all the saved must repent of all their sins and must be baptized. There is no way around that principle and law. What does repentance and baptism do? It has the power to cleanse, through the atonement of Christ and make one perfect (spotless). In fact, all those saved eternally from hell will be perfectly spotless and no sin they ever committed can be used in judgement against them as Christ will remember them no more. So, what then prevents them from returning to Gods literal presence? Nothing. Thats the gospel in a nutshell. 

Now, as to the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms. These are temporary stages of our earth before the celestial kingdom begins. Right now we are in the telestial kingdom. At the beginning of the millennium all qualified will enter into the terrestrial kingdom and continue towards perfection. Then, after Christ has perfected all of this singular kingdom he will present it to the Father spotless in its entirety for all the saved to enjoy eternal life. Then the celestial glory begins and all of those saved from hell will dwell with the Father and Son in celestial glory.

Now, as to your questions. King David committed the unpardonable sin because he had already entered into the covenant of priesthood and then murdered in cold blood. He will not be forgiven his sin and will go into perdition in the lake of fire and brimstone with the devil and his angels.

Any other sin can be pardoned if a person repents and are baptized. Even murder can be forgiven as long as they did not previously enter into the new and everlasting covenant of the priesthood. Adultery, theft, etc can be completely forgiven, even in the spirit world. Those repent and are baptized are made members of the Church of the Firstborn and heirs to the celestial kingdom.

These are all my opinions but nevertheless I believe them to be true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is forgiveness... and there is being able to endure a Weight of Glory... They are not the same thing but we often conflate them.

All but those that commit the unpardonable sin will be forgiven, by Christ through the power of his atonement, and be cleaned from sin. And thus be able to enter Heaven.  However in Heaven there are three degrees of Glory.  Which Glory we get depends on what kind of person we became. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

There is forgiveness... and there is being able to endure a Weight of Glory... They are not the same thing but we often conflate them.

All but those that commit the unpardonable sin will be forgiven, by Christ through the power of his atonement, and be cleaned from sin. And thus be able to enter Heaven.  However in Heaven there are three degrees of Glory.  Which Glory we get depends on what kind of person we became. 

 

Well said, sir.  Well said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Seeker of truth said:

After reading the following excerpts I would like to know your thoughts on the following question. The D&C dilineates which sins go to which kingdom of glory. It was always my impression those were people who didn’t repent of those sins. And that those who repented went to the celestial kingdom. My new understanding is that all people that go to any degree of glory, including telestial and terrestrial are forgiven of their sins, made clean, but still consigned to those lesser kingdoms based upon the seriousness of the sins they committed. Is this so?

...

So to summarize:

Am I to understand that King David “received repentance” was forgiven and still consigned to telestial kingdom. If so does that apply to all sins dilineateed in D&C for each kingdom, that those people in those kingdoms are forgiven of those sins but still consigned to that kingdom?

Or is my original belief that if you repent you will be forgiven (all but blasphemy against the Holy Ghost) and go to the celestial kingdom? If this is the case how do I rectify the apparent discrepancy between that belief and the excerpts shared above?

I saw no mention of D&C 76 in your entire post.  What do you read in D&C 76 regarding your question?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I saw no mention of D&C 76 in your entire post.  What do you read in D&C 76 regarding your question?

I have always thought that sins 1-10, if you repent fully of you will be granted celestial glory. 

In light of the Gospel Doctrine excerpts I quoted it would seem that eventually all mankind will be forgiven for all their misdeeds- even if it is after this life by going through hell first. It would make it seem that even though forgiveness was obtained one still might not inherit the celestial kingdom.

Those excerpts I shared and am trying to understand in light of Section 76 would make it seem like sins 1-3 committed (least serious sins) repented and forgiven of will obtain celestial glory, sins 4-7 committed (moderately serious sins) repented and forgiven of will obtain terrestrial glory and sins 8-10 committed (most serious sins) repented and forgiven of will obtain telestial glory.

What is your take on section 76?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

There is forgiveness... and there is being able to endure a Weight of Glory... They are not the same thing but we often conflate them.

All but those that commit the unpardonable sin will be forgiven, by Christ through the power of his atonement, and be cleaned from sin. And thus be able to enter Heaven.  However in Heaven there are three degrees of Glory.  Which Glory we get depends on what kind of person we became. 

 

I always understood that only those that obtained celestial glory had repented and were made clean through the atonement which is what allowed them to enter that kingdom. Everyone else failed to repent, thus remained unclean and could not enter  the celestial kingdom, they were consigned to terrestrial or telestial glories because of their uncleanliness, they didn’t repent, didn’t receive forgiveness, and thus not worthy to enter Celestial glory- no unclean thing can enter.

If everyone but those unpardonable are forgiven and cleansed what would keep them from the celestial kingdom? Why are they consigned to terrestrial and telestial if they are forgiven and cleansed (without spot)?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Seeker of truth said:

I have always thought that sins 1-10, if you repent fully of you will be granted celestial glory. 

In light of the Gospel Doctrine excerpts I quoted it would seem that eventually all mankind will be forgiven for all their misdeeds- even if it is after this life by going through hell first. It would make it seem that even though forgiveness was obtained one still might not inherit the celestial kingdom.

Those excerpts I shared and am trying to understand in light of Section 76 would make it seem like sins 1-3 committed (least serious sins) repented and forgiven of will obtain celestial glory, sins 4-7 committed (moderately serious sins) repented and forgiven of will obtain terrestrial glory and sins 8-10 committed (most serious sins) repented and forgiven of will obtain telestial glory.

What is your take on section 76?

If one repents, is he forgiven 100%, 50%, or 25%?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Seeker of truth said:

If everyone but those unpardonable are forgiven and cleansed what would keep them from the celestial kingdom? Why are they consigned to terrestrial and telestial if they are forgiven and cleansed (without spot)?

Nothing will keep them from the celestial kingdom. Heaven is not what we think it is and thus why the confusion and contradictions exist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Seeker of truth said:

I always understood that only those that obtained celestial glory had repented and were made clean through the atonement which is what allowed them to enter that kingdom. Everyone else failed to repent, thus remained unclean and could not enter  the celestial kingdom, they were consigned to terrestrial or telestial glories because of their uncleanliness, they didn’t repent, didn’t receive forgiveness, and thus not worthy to enter Celestial glory- no unclean thing can enter.

If everyone but those unpardonable are forgiven and cleansed what would keep them from the celestial kingdom? Why are they consigned to terrestrial and telestial if they are forgiven and cleansed (without spot)?

 

You understood wrong.

Forgiveness is in the hands of Christ, and he will forgive all but the unpardonable.

The judgement is also in the hands of Christ and it will flow from what we have become.

A Celestial Glory holder will find happiness and joy in eternal sacrifice, and service (Like Christ and the Father do)

A Telestial Glory holder would be in eternal torment under the conditions of Celestial Glory and therefore are rewarded with a lesser state and enjoy the maxim happiness and joy that state brings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The unrepentant will have to suffer for those sins before the atonement plays a part in their glory and will be part of the 2nd resurrection.  Those who are part of the first resurrection will be those who inherit celestial glory and those of the 2nd resurrection will receive the lessor kingdoms/damnation. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Seeker of truth said:

If everyone but those unpardonable are forgiven and cleansed what would keep them from the celestial kingdom? Why are they consigned to terrestrial and telestial if they are forgiven and cleansed (without spot)?

In the Church, we tend to default to thinking of the kingdoms of glory as places. 

But what if the key issue isn’t where people go, but what they become?  

And what if what they become is less a matter of divine fiat, and more a natural product of the choices and priorities and testimonies that people produced during their lifetimes?

Could it be that—at a certain point in our progression—God can fully forgive us while still not having the power to change us beyond a certain point?

Edited by Just_A_Guy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's review different possibilities pertaining to forgiveness, law, and kingdoms of glory:

1) Children who die before the age of accountability
2) Those without the law in this life, but would have accepted it if it had been preached to them (these accept ordinances beyond the veil)
3) Those without the law in this life, and would have chosen not to accept it if it had been preached to them (these reject the ordinances beyond the veil)
4) Those who die in their sins and enter the spirit world (the law is preached unto them, or they are somehow made aware of the law)
5) Those who repent, and are saved from their sins in this life (the law is preached unto them)

The atonement of Jesus Christ will cover children before the age of accountability, those without law but would have received it, and those who repent and are saved from their sins (pertaining to Celestial light and truth). These will come forth in the first resurrection (which has already happened for some) and will inherit all the Father hath. These are those who are forgiven.

There are Terrestrial Laws, Telestial Laws, and Celestial Laws. In one of our general conferences, I remember hearing a talk regarding "divorce" and the scriptures that highlight couples who divorce and if the woman remarries she is committing adultery. Here is the verse, "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."  This is scripture, and do we practice this principle? No. It was mentioned that this is a Celestial Law. To whom much is forgiven, much is required, and he who sins against the greater light shall receive greater condemnation. If we are living Celestial Laws, and have covenanted to do so (we have received greater light and knowledge) then we can expect the consequence to be greater pertaining to forgiveness and repentance.

Joseph Smith's quote regarding forgiveness with adultery, is probably better understood in correlation with other scriptures within Doctrine and Covenants regarding adultery and forgiveness.

We can also receive forgiveness while suffering the consequences of our decisions. Those who merit Telestial glory are those who have received forgiveness, and will experience their eternal consequence of Telestial glory. This is the choice they made and who they became. The same for Terrestrial and the same for Celestial. These are all predicated laws that are received through predicated obedience. These are all predicated laws that are received through predicated disobedience.

We are no different as earthly parents. We forgive our children all the time, and our forgiveness doesn't remove consequences if we are apply proper parenting principles. Our children will say "I'm sorry" and we will still apply punishment while we already have forgiven them. Forgiveness doesn't remove consequences, nor eternal consequences regarding who we chose to receive and who we chose to become.

I honestly don't see any contradiction with what you are sharing and the manuals provided. The discrepancy is believing that "all" will go to the Celestial kingdom (meaning receiving all the Father hath); however, this former thought pattern creates the following question: Can we progress from Telestial bodies, to Terrestrial, and on to Celestial? Which appears what you are drawing attention to with your statement of if we repent all go to Celestial kingdom (which doesn't specify if we repent in this life or die in our sins, which are important distinctions).

King David according to scripture fell from his exaltation. That appears pretty clear to me. Similar to parents God can forgive, doesn't mean consequences are removed from us -- eternal consequences.

 

 

Edited by Anddenex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Seeker of truth said:

What is your take on section 76?

I was waiting to hear yours.  I find it interesting that you're not placing focus on the scriptures.  Even when I asked how you thought it addressed your question, you still didn't really refer to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jesus paid for our sins. That's already done.

However, if we don't repent, we must also pay for those sins.

D&C 19

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

 

So, repent now, or your forgiveness will not be easy and you WILL pay the price yourself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are as many different opinions here as there are posters. I have always been interested in this. We teach the three kingdoms yet opinions vary from one end to the other. I tend to think we dont have very good correlation in manuals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Seeker of truth said:

I always understood that only those that obtained celestial glory had repented and were made clean through the atonement which is what allowed them to enter that kingdom. Everyone else failed to repent, thus remained unclean and could not enter  the celestial kingdom, they were consigned to terrestrial or telestial glories because of their uncleanliness, they didn’t repent, didn’t receive forgiveness, and thus not worthy to enter Celestial glory- no unclean thing can enter.

If everyone but those unpardonable are forgiven and cleansed what would keep them from the celestial kingdom? Why are they consigned to terrestrial and telestial if they are forgiven and cleansed (without spot)

All will repent who obtain a kingdom of glory, "And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation - that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe; and they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not." (D&C 29:43-44). As it says, those not redeemed repent not, all others will repent and obtain a kingdom. 

Just as others have said, the kingdom we receive is according to the glory by which we are quickened, "They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened" (D&C 88:28). That quickening has to do with who we have become. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, bytebear said:

Jesus paid for our sins. That's already done.

However, if we don't repent, we must also pay for those sins.

D&C 19

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

So, repent now, or your forgiveness will not be easy and you WILL pay the price yourself.

While we may indeed suffer for our sins, I don't believe there is any such thing as paying for our sins by suffering. When a person sins he must repent, period. Suffering does not pay for sin, it never did, it never will. Repentance, or in other words turning to God and changing, is the only way to extricate ourselves from sin. When the Lord says, "repent or suffer" (D&C 19:4) he means that we will suffer until we repent. However, he is not saying that if we suffer we do not need to repent. That simply is not true.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, james12 said:

While we may indeed suffer for our sins, I don't believe there is any such thing as paying for our sins by suffering. When a person sins he must repent, period. Suffering does not pay for sin, it never did, it never will. Repentance, or in other words turning to God and changing, is the only way to extricate ourselves from sin. When the Lord says, "repent or suffer" (D&C 19:4) he means that we will suffer until we repent. However, he is not saying that if we suffer we do not need to repent. That simply is not true.   

Do you believe repentance means anything without baptism?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Seeker of truth said:

Or is my original belief that if you repent you will be forgiven (all but blasphemy against the Holy Ghost) and go to the celestial kingdom? If this is the case how do I rectify the apparent discrepancy between that belief and the excerpts shared above?

i recommend reading CS Lewis' book "The Great Divorce".  That's more or less the viewpoint i ascribe to - but it is just my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Do you believe repentance means anything without baptism?

If one is to be saved with the just I believe both will be required. But any person, at any time, may change and turn to God and it will be well with them.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The scriptures declare that God teaches us line upon line, precept upon precept.

On of the most basic and fundamental set of lines are.

No unclean thing can enter the Kingdom of God.

Sin makes us unclean.

We all sin. So we all fall Short and need help.

Christ paid for our sins and his forgiveness will make us clean.

These ideas can be found all over in the scriptures and they are so fundamental that every Christian faith that I know of accepts it (they might reword it but they accept it)

Now the LDS faith believes that there is More (Greater Light and Knowledge).  This Greater Light and Knowledge does not make the prior Light and Knowledge false, but sometimes we "assume" stuff based on the Lesser Light and Knowledge and those assumptions can be (and often are) false.

For example from the Lesser Light as described many people assume that all those that accept Christ and gain his forgiveness will gain the same reward, and all those that deny Christ will have the same punishment.

Thus we gain the assumption of a very Binary Heaven/Hell afterlife setup.  Based on the Limited Light this assumption makes a lot of sense.

But if we believe that God teaches line upon line, and will reveal Greater Light and Knowledge then we need to be prepared and ready to check and modify our assumptions when we receive it.

In D&C 76 we received Greater Light and Knowledge.  Nothing there contradicts the prior truths, but it does blow away some of the things we "Assumed" including a binary Heaven/Hell after life.

For example in the subset of people that Accept Christ and his atonement there are two divisions (That we know of) those that were "Valiant in their testimonies" will gain a Celestial Glory, and those that were not Valiant will gain a Terrestrial Glory.

For the subset of people that did not Accept Christ and his atonement they are in Prison/Hell but that is not the end.  After Christ finish his work with those that accepted him he will once again extend his help to those that suffered in Hell.  For those that accept he will break the bands of hell and end their suffering and they will get the Telestial Glory.  Those that continue to reject him remain as they are without Glory (Aka Sons of Perdition)  The greater light and knowledge crushes the Binary Heaven and Hell model into four different states.

We also need to be careful when we read the scriptures that as we are reading descriptions of the Lesser Light that we do not try to cram the Greater Light into it... It will not fit.  We need to accept that the bulk of the scripture talk about the Lesser Light. And not discount or minimize the Greater Light by claiming the Prophets did not understand what they revealed

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

The scriptures declare that God teaches us line upon line, precept upon precept.

On of the most basic and fundamental set of lines are.

No unclean thing can enter the Kingdom of God.

Sin makes us unclean.

We all sin. So we all fall Short and need help.

Christ paid for our sins and his forgiveness will make us clean.

These ideas can be found all over in the scriptures and they are so fundamental that every Christian faith that I know of accepts it (they might reword it but they accept it)

Now the LDS faith believes that there is More (Greater Light and Knowledge).  This Greater Light and Knowledge does not make the prior Light and Knowledge false, but sometimes we "assume" stuff based on the Lesser Light and Knowledge and those assumptions can be (and often are) false.

For example from the Lesser Light as described many people assume that all those that accept Christ and gain his forgiveness will gain the same reward, and all those that deny Christ will have the same punishment.

Thus we gain the assumption of a very Binary Heaven/Hell afterlife setup.  Based on the Limited Light this assumption makes a lot of sense.

But if we believe that God teaches line upon line, and will reveal Greater Light and Knowledge then we need to be prepared and ready to check and modify our assumptions when we receive it.

In D&C 76 we received Greater Light and Knowledge.  Nothing there contradicts the prior truths, but it does blow away some of the things we "Assumed" including a binary Heaven/Hell after life.

For example in the subset of people that Accept Christ and his atonement there are two divisions (That we know of) those that were "Valiant in their testimonies" will gain a Celestial Glory, and those that were not Valiant will gain a Terrestrial Glory.

For the subset of people that did not Accept Christ and his atonement they are in Prison/Hell but that is not the end.  After Christ finish his work with those that accepted him he will once again extend his help to those that suffered in Hell.  For those that accept he will break the bands of hell and end their suffering and they will get the Telestial Glory.  Those that continue to reject him remain as they are without Glory (Aka Sons of Perdition)  The greater light and knowledge crushes the Binary Heaven and Hell model into four different states.

We also need to be careful when we read the scriptures that as we are reading descriptions of the Lesser Light that we do not try to cram the Greater Light into it... It will not fit.  We need to accept that the bulk of the scripture talk about the Lesser Light. And not discount or minimize the Greater Light by claiming the Prophets did not understand what they revealed

 

I would like to discuss a few points you make here. Several points you bring up are important. Breaking it down we have the valiant and not valiant. I understand that obviously the valiant go on into celestial glory. But those that arent valiant Im a little bit in the fog on this one. For instance, we read-

72 Behold, these are they who died without law; (D&C 76:72)

Now, we know that they accept the gospel on the other side. For whatever reason in mortality this particular group werent under the law. So, they cant really be judged by not being valiant in mortality as they never had the law. So, we know they accept the gospel in the spirit world and that during the millennium they are resurrected and reign with Christ. If we are thus judged by what we become, do you think that during the millennium they lack being valiant during that period? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I would like to discuss a few points you make here. Several points you bring up are important. Breaking it down we have the valiant and not valiant. I understand that obviously the valiant go on into celestial glory. But those that arent valiant Im a little bit in the fog on this one. For instance, we read-

72 Behold, these are they who died without law; (D&C 76:72)

Now, we know that they accept the gospel on the other side. For whatever reason in mortality this particular group werent under the law. So, they cant really be judged by not being valiant in mortality as they never had the law. So, we know they accept the gospel in the spirit world and that during the millennium they are resurrected and reign with Christ. If we are thus judged by what we become, do you think that during the millennium they lack being valiant during that period? 

When we talk about those without Law the official answer is Christ is the Judge and he make the call.

My opinion (Which I think pretty solid but it is worth exactly what you pay for)  Is that no one is completely without Law,  (All have the Light of Christ for example)  We might not have a lot but what we choose to do with what we have is how the judgment is made.

As for those that die young (aka little children) again as my opinion there is either more Light and Knowledge to have on the subject and/or they proved themselves in the preexistence.  I do not think anyone dies in a manner that thwarts God's plan or judgment.  We just don't alway have the information needed to understand how it works in all individual cases

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now