Forgiveness and degrees of glory

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

When we talk about those without Law the official answer is Christ is the Judge and he make the call.

My opinion (Which I think pretty solid but it is worth exactly what you pay for)  Is that no one is completely without Law,  (All have the Light of Christ for example)  We might not have a lot but what we choose to do with what we have is how the judgment is made.

As for those that die young (aka little children) again as my opinion there is either more Light and Knowledge to have on the subject and/or they proved themselves in the preexistence.  I do not think anyone dies in a manner that thwarts God's plan or judgment.  We just don't alway have the information needed to understand how it works in all individual cases

I find this quote both interesting and yet puzzling-

"(Joseph Fielding Smith)

This other class, which will also have right to the first resurrection, are those who are not members of the Church of the Firstborn, but who have led honorable lives, although they refused to accept the fulness of the gospel.

Also in this class will be numbered those who died without law and hence are not under condemnation for a violation of the commandments of the Lord. The promise is made to them of redemption from death in the following words: "And then shall the heathen nations be redeemed, and they that knew no law shall have part in the first resurrection; and it shall be tolerable for them." [D. & C. 45:54] These, too, shall partake of the mercies of the Lord and shall receive the reuniting of spirit and body inseparably, thus becoming immortal, but not with the fulness of the glory of God. (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.297)"

So, if you were one of those countless souls in one of those heathen nations, who knew no law, the best you can hope for is terrestrial glory?

I find this doctrine puzzling. Our default is to say "Christ is the judge" but in reality havent the prophets already passed judgement on them? Is this statement by the prophet false?

[estradling75]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I find this quote both interesting and yet puzzling-

"(Joseph Fielding Smith)

This other class, which will also have right to the first resurrection, are those who are not members of the Church of the Firstborn, but who have led honorable lives, although they refused to accept the fulness of the gospel.

Also in this class will be numbered those who died without law and hence are not under condemnation for a violation of the commandments of the Lord. The promise is made to them of redemption from death in the following words: "And then shall the heathen nations be redeemed, and they that knew no law shall have part in the first resurrection; and it shall be tolerable for them." [D. & C. 45:54] These, too, shall partake of the mercies of the Lord and shall receive the reuniting of spirit and body inseparably, thus becoming immortal, but not with the fulness of the glory of God. (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.297)"

So, if you were one of those countless souls in one of those heathen nations, who knew no law, the best you can hope for is terrestrial glory?

I find this doctrine puzzling. Our default is to say "Christ is the judge" but in reality havent the prophets already passed judgement on them? Is this statement by the prophet false?

Per the process outlined by the Lord in the Doctrine and Covenants and again reiterated by the Church.

Only those teaching that follow the process are binding.  This quote you gave (and many like it) fall in to the category of opinion.  We should not take such opinions lightly... but they are not the reveled Word of God on the matter.

[Rob Osborn]

4 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Per the process outlined by the Lord in the Doctrine and Covenants and again reiterated by the Church.

Only those teaching that follow the process are binding.  This quote you gave (and many like it) fall in to the category of opinion.  We should not take such opinions lightly... but they are not the reveled Word of God on the matter.

So, you admit that prophets have opinions too and not everything they say is truth.

[Anddenex]

11 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I find this quote both interesting and yet puzzling-

"(Joseph Fielding Smith)

This other class, which will also have right to the first resurrection, are those who are not members of the Church of the Firstborn, but who have led honorable lives, although they refused to accept the fulness of the gospel.

Also in this class will be numbered those who died without law and hence are not under condemnation for a violation of the commandments of the Lord. The promise is made to them of redemption from death in the following words: "And then shall the heathen nations be redeemed, and they that knew no law shall have part in the first resurrection; and it shall be tolerable for them." [D. & C. 45:54] These, too, shall partake of the mercies of the Lord and shall receive the reuniting of spirit and body inseparably, thus becoming immortal, but not with the fulness of the glory of God. (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.297)"

So, if you were one of those countless souls in one of those heathen nations, who knew no law, the best you can hope for is terrestrial glory?

I find this doctrine puzzling. Our default is to say "Christ is the judge" but in reality havent the prophets already passed judgement on them? Is this statement by the prophet false?

The key to this quote, and as I am not Joseph Fielding Smith I can only go by what is said:

1) This other class
2) Also in this class

These two paragraphs appear to be highlighting the same principle as has been described in doctrine already. If people die without law, but would have accepted the gospel if they were living (as God knows) they will be exalted.

In this scenario, if I am reading correct the two classes mentioned are in the same group who, "refused to accept the fulness of the gospel." If they refuse to accept the gospel, by their own volition they chose a Terrestrial glory. Which is different than the "best you can hope for" as if God assigned them their fate of choice. They by their choice of refusing the gospel have assigned themselves to this glory, this is what they have chosen to become.

In light of these thoughts, I don't find it puzzling.

Is this statement by the prophet false? We must remember that prophets are men and can share their own thoughts and opinions on any subject. I would have loved to be able to speak with Brigham Young further on his "Adam-God Theory"; unfortunately I am not able to. There are aspects that have clearly been identified as personal opinion. All prophets have their personal opinion. What is most important is what is actually accepted as doctrine, not opinion, although opinion of a prophet can at one point be placed in scripture. We have the Book of Mormon for evidence for this.

[estradling75]

12 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, you admit that prophets have opinions too and not everything they say is truth.

When have I not?

The Lord revealed how we are to know what is truth.  Through his ordained Leaders acting in unison.  The scriptures are true.  The correct understanding of what they say for the church as a whole comes from their unified teachings on the matter.

(The spirit gives individual, and personal insights but only the united leadership authoritatively speaks to the public.  Every other public statement done by individuals is opinion)

[NeuroTypical]

What better way to determine whether Joseph Fielding Smith is infallible or not, than to ask him!  

Quote

It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teaching of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear.

You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works.

Every man who writes is responsible, not the Church, for what he writes. If Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member of the Church is duty bound to reject it. If he writes that which is in perfect harmony with the revealed word of the Lord, then it should be accepted.

 - Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1956, 3:203-4

This is like one of those logic games with two identical robots, where one always lies and one always tells the truth. 

Case 1: Prophets are infallible, which means JFS is telling the truth, which means he's not infallible.  Result = paradox, earth falling into the sun, babies makin' babies, talking axe heads, etc.
Case 2: Prophets are fallible, which means JFS may be either right or wrong. 
 - Option a: If he's wrong, then he's infallible, see result to case 1. 
 - Option b: If he's right, then prophets are fallible, and the world makes sense. 

 

[Rob Osborn]

8 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

The key to this quote, and as I am not Joseph Fielding Smith I can only go by what is said:

1) This other class
2) Also in this class

These two paragraphs appear to be highlighting the same principle as has been described in doctrine already. If people die without law, but would have accepted the gospel if they were living (as God knows) they will be exalted.

In this scenario, if I am reading correct the two classes mentioned are in the same group who, "refused to accept the fulness of the gospel." If they refuse to accept the gospel, by their own volition they chose a Terrestrial glory. Which is different than the "best you can hope for" as if God assigned them their fate of choice. They by their choice of refusing the gospel have assigned themselves to this glory, this is what they have chosen to become.

In light of these thoughts, I don't find it puzzling.

Is this statement by the prophet false? We must remember that prophets are men and can share their own thoughts and opinions on any subject. I would have loved to be able to speak with Brigham Young further on his "Adam-God Theory"; unfortunately I am not able to. There are aspects that have clearly been identified as personal opinion. All prophets have their personal opinion. What is most important is what is actually accepted as doctrine, not opinion, although opinion of a prophet can at one point be placed in scripture. We have the Book of Mormon for evidence for this.

My quest isnt to refute the prophets, its honestly in finding the truth. I know, through study and research, that several of the prophets, including Joseph Smith, had their strong opinions on their interpretation of the vision now recorded as section 76. In light of that I wonder if these opinions helped to establish a type of doctrinal dogma that even filtered down into official manuals that still persists today in the church.

[estradling75]

7 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

My quest isnt to refute the prophets, its honestly in finding the truth. I know, through study and research, that several of the prophets, including Joseph Smith, had their strong opinions on their interpretation of the vision now recorded as section 76. In light of that I wonder if these opinions helped to establish a type of doctrinal dogma that even filtered down into official manuals that still persists today in the church.

While understandable you have to be sure you do not swing to the other extreme...  One extreme is to take everything they say as the "Word of God" but the other is to say that the prophets only teach their opinion.

Both extremes make the Lord's pattern a waste of time and space and will lead to false hoods.

We need to listen for the united voice and it does exist and they are using it... so listen for it.

 

[Anddenex]

13 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

My quest isnt to refute the prophets, its honestly in finding the truth. I know, through study and research, that several of the prophets, including Joseph Smith, had their strong opinions on their interpretation of the vision now recorded as section 76. In light of that I wonder if these opinions helped to establish a type of doctrinal dogma that even filtered down into official manuals that still persists today in the church.

To be clear, from your posts, I believe you are seeking to "honestly" discover and find truth. I think the discrepancy though is how often you use the word "flawed" in correlation with prophets and the Church manual, which at times may appear as though you are trying to "refute" the prophets.

Here is a question I ponder, "How does Article of Faith #9 apply to manuals and learning in the Church"? For example, if we are given greater light and knowledge, and then someone refers back to a manual that professed the knowledge of that time, would people see the previous time as "flawed"? I think honestly they could, but they would be wrong in their assessment. What I also find remarkable is how when we learn line-upon-line and then look back we often think, "How did I not see this earlier. It was so simple and always before me."

The Church, at least in my opinion, already has a proper form of checks and balances regarding "opinions filtered down that could establish a type of doctrinal dogma that isn't correct." I believe the quote from Joseph Fielding Smith answers this thought perfectly. So perfectly, I will share the quote again:

Quote

It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teaching of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear.

You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works.

Every man who writes is responsible, not the Church, for what he writes. If Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member of the Church is duty bound to reject it. If he writes that which is in perfect harmony with the revealed word of the Lord, then it should be accepted.

 - Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1956, 3:203-4

So even in Church manuals there maybe opinions and thoughts provided to get us thinking in the right direction, or to give example to scripture which highlights this point:

Quote

Teach ye diligently and my grace shall attend you, that you may be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand;

One thing I find intriguing is the concept of being instructed more perfectly "in theory." And when that theory is revealed to be in conflict with revealed doctrinal truths, those established by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, then as Joseph Fielding Smith stated, "every member of the Church is duty bound to reject it."

 

[JohnsonJones]

3 hours ago, estradling75 said:

The scriptures declare that God teaches us line upon line, precept upon precept.

On of the most basic and fundamental set of lines are.

No unclean thing can enter the Kingdom of God.

Sin makes us unclean.

We all sin. So we all fall Short and need help.

Christ paid for our sins and his forgiveness will make us clean.

These ideas can be found all over in the scriptures and they are so fundamental that every Christian faith that I know of accepts it (they might reword it but they accept it)

Now the LDS faith believes that there is More (Greater Light and Knowledge).  This Greater Light and Knowledge does not make the prior Light and Knowledge false, but sometimes we "assume" stuff based on the Lesser Light and Knowledge and those assumptions can be (and often are) false.

For example from the Lesser Light as described many people assume that all those that accept Christ and gain his forgiveness will gain the same reward, and all those that deny Christ will have the same punishment.

Thus we gain the assumption of a very Binary Heaven/Hell afterlife setup.  Based on the Limited Light this assumption makes a lot of sense.

But if we believe that God teaches line upon line, and will reveal Greater Light and Knowledge then we need to be prepared and ready to check and modify our assumptions when we receive it.

In D&C 76 we received Greater Light and Knowledge.  Nothing there contradicts the prior truths, but it does blow away some of the things we "Assumed" including a binary Heaven/Hell after life.

I view it slightly differently in regards to some of the other Protestant religions.  Think about our own thoughts on the afterlife.  Upon death we actually gain a reward of sorts depending on whether we have been righteous or wicked.  Those who are righteous (and thus we would assume those who believe in the Lord most likely) go to one place, while those who were wicked or directly rejected the Lord or his gospel may go to another.  We call these places spirit prison and spirit paradise. 

Many religions stop at this point.  They believe that we die and continue on as spirits.  They do not go on into a physical resurrection where the physical body and the spirit are reunited as one.  In this light, one could say they are pretty similar to our own belief.  They believe that once you die and are a spirit, you go to heaven (or what we  may say is spirit paradise) or hell (or what we call spirit prison).  In fact, many of the biblical verses (such as the Lord going and teaching the spirits in prison) are utilized in their theology of heaven and hell.

I also agree with your idea, though, that as we gain greater light and knowledge, our interpretations change.  In this, I would say that those Protestants who believe in a heaven and hell like that are not wrong, but we have expanded upon what they believe.

We believe that beyond this heaven (spirit paradise) or paradise or Hell (spirit prison) is a judgment where the we gain a resurrected physical body and go onto another reward...either greater or lesser.

Even here, in some ways, the Protestant Christian belief still has elements that we believe.  They do not believe in the Celestial glory as we do, but instead believe that those who go to heaven will be able to be where the Lord is.  This is a pretty apt description of the Terrestrial Kingdom, for we know that the Lord will be able to visit there and they will be able to be in his physical presence.

in that, I'd say that many of the beliefs of Protestants are actually what we believe, the difference is that with that greater light and knowledge we expand upon it (to a point and into areas which they do NOT believe and most probably reject outright).  This is, as you say, most probably due to the assumptions we make when we have less light and knowledge.

[Rob Osborn]

24 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

While understandable you have to be sure you do not swing to the other extreme...  One extreme is to take everything they say as the "Word of God" but the other is to say that the prophets only teach their opinion.

Both extremes make the Lord's pattern a waste of time and space and will lead to false hoods.

We need to listen for the united voice and it does exist and they are using it... so listen for it.

 

So, I have this truth buzzer in my brain and it works pretty darn good, its one of my gifts. I can accept church teachings and follow the prophets. But in some areas its more on faith and fortitude knowing that some things, at times, dont ding my truth buzzer even a little bit. I know the Holy Ghost testifies of truth and so when I ask about certain specifics of church doctrine my feeling I get is that not all truth has been revealed but nevertheless perservere and still follow the prophets, in time all doctrine will come into the pathway of truth. So, it creates a type of paradox where we are commanded to teach the truth on the one hand and yet on the other only teach official church doctrine. Sometimes, such as with heaven and hell, our church doxtrine isnt truth. Its unsettling I guess.

[mordorbund]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

I would like to discuss a few points you make here. Several points you bring up are important. Breaking it down we have the valiant and not valiant. I understand that obviously the valiant go on into celestial glory. But those that arent valiant Im a little bit in the fog on this one. For instance, we read-

72 Behold, these are they who died without law; (D&C 76:72)

Now, we know that they accept the gospel on the other side. For whatever reason in mortality this particular group werent under the law. So, they cant really be judged by not being valiant in mortality as they never had the law. So, we know they accept the gospel in the spirit world and that during the millennium they are resurrected and reign with Christ. If we are thus judged by what we become, do you think that during the millennium they lack being valiant during that period? 

Now we know that they accept the gospel on the other side. In 1832 Joseph learned that "they who died without law" "are they who are of the terrestrial" and that's that. That means Alvin get Terrestrial. 4 years later Joseph receives a revelation that tells him something different about Alvin. "All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God". Apparently, Alvin is in a different class from "they who died without law", because not only is he without law, but he "would have received it if [he] had been permitted to tarry." This then leaves the Terrestrial group as they who died without law but who would not have received it anyway. Now this introduces some philosophical problems, but it does not require discarding the plain revelations.

I would add that Joseph wasn't taught the mechanism of vicarious ordinances for another 6 years. The doctrine we have on salvation and the fate of the dead has largely been additive.

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

Now we know that they accept the gospel on the other side. In 1832 Joseph learned that "they who died without law" "are they who are of the terrestrial" and that's that. That means Alvin get Terrestrial. 4 years later Joseph receives a revelation that tells him something different about Alvin. "All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God". Apparently, Alvin is in a different class from "they who died without law", because not only is he without law, but he "would have received it if [he] had been permitted to tarry." This then leaves the Terrestrial group as they who died without law but who would not have received it anyway. Now this introduces some philosophical problems, but it does not require discarding the plain revelations.

I would add that Joseph wasn't taught the mechanism of vicarious ordinances for another 6 years. The doctrine we have on salvation and the fate of the dead has largely been additive.

So, we know we are judged by what really happens, not what-ifs. Theres an obvious conflict there. Then, you have the temple endowment that was a later line upon line where we learn about the kingdoms in more light and what we learn there doesnt really conform to what we wete believing up to that point.

[estradling75]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, I have this truth buzzer in my brain and it works pretty darn good, its one of my gifts. I can accept church teachings and follow the prophets. But in some areas its more on faith and fortitude knowing that some things, at times, dont ding my truth buzzer even a little bit. I know the Holy Ghost testifies of truth and so when I ask about certain specifics of church doctrine my feeling I get is that not all truth has been revealed but nevertheless perservere and still follow the prophets, in time all doctrine will come into the pathway of truth. So, it creates a type of paradox where we are commanded to teach the truth on the one hand and yet on the other only teach official church doctrine. Sometimes, such as with heaven and hell, our church doxtrine isnt truth. Its unsettling I guess.

Everyone is in that same boat... we all have a truth buzzer in our heads and quite a few of us have found insights and understandings that we can't share.  God knows everything but he only shares a small portion of what he knows.  Many times in scriptures the prophets are stopped and commanded to not share what the Lord just gave them.  We should expect no less of ourselves as we progress in knowledge and understanding.

Sadly many fail to hold sacred these things.  We think because we know we know "A Truth" we know better then the leaders God had chosen (and therefore God himself) what should be shared with others.  And is so doing we become Ark Steaders, and possibly even apostate because we confuse trusting that God will handle things in his own way and time with a "rejection of truth" that we are so sure of.

[mordorbund]

6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, we know we are judged by what really happens, not what-ifs.

Yes, like I said, 6 years later Joseph learned about the mechanism of vicarious ordinances, so there was no what-if. Did they accept the ordinance or not? As @estradling75 and others have mentioned, these revelations were additive.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Everyone is in that same boat... we all have a truth buzzer in our heads and quite a few of us have found insights and understandings that we can't share.  God knows everything but he only shares a small portion of what he knows.  Many times in scriptures the prophets are stopped and commanded to not share what the Lord just gave them.  We should expect no less of ourselves as we progress in knowledge and understanding.

Sadly many fail to hold sacred these things.  We think because we know we know "A Truth" we know better then the leaders God had chosen (and therefore God himself) what should be shared with others.  And is so doing we become Ark Steaders, and possibly even apostate because we confuse trusting that God will handle things in his own way and time with a "rejection of truth" that we are so sure of.

Not to mention, many people who think they have special knowledge not revealed to the prophets wind up being flat out wrong, and their "knowledge" is not inspired by the Spirit at all, but instead their own hubris.

A very good example of this is Kate Kelly, whose honest belief that the prophets were wrong about women and the priesthood led her to eventually leave the Church and take hundreds with her.  From the outside, it is very clear what happened there - she was blinded by hubris and mistook a prompting from Satan from a prompting from the Spirit.  Yet, she was completely blind to this.

I think the temperament of a person is very telling as to whether their "special knowledge" is from God or not . . . in the case of Kate Kelly, who used her special knowledge to undermine faith and satisfy her own hubris, I seriously doubt God gave her special knowledge about women and the priesthood.  I believe God would reserve such special knowledge for more useful channels, such as the Prophet and the Quorum of the Twelve.

I don't believe prophets are fallible when  pronouncing actual Church doctrine.  However, if by some off chance they somehow are and I am wrong, if I follow said prophets the promise of the Celestial Kingdom is true.  If I don't follow said prophets but follow my own hubris, at some point I may find myself an apostate and find I have lost my exaltation while pursuing a harebrained theory, similar to Kate Kelly (assuming she doesn't repent).  

Edited February 1, 2018 by DoctorLemon

[CV75]

On 1/31/2018 at 12:47 PM, Seeker of truth said:

So to summarize:

Am I to understand that King David “received repentance” was forgiven and still consigned to telestial kingdom. If so does that apply to all sins dilineateed in D&C for each kingdom, that those people in those kingdoms are forgiven of those sins but still consigned to that kingdom?

Or is my original belief that if you repent you will be forgiven (all but blasphemy against the Holy Ghost) and go to the celestial kingdom? If this is the case how do I rectify the apparent discrepancy between that belief and the excerpts shared above?

I think the spirit world extends our opportunity for repentance and forgiveness beyond that which have in the flesh (1 Peter 4:6). Those who remain without law, heathen, adulterers, sorcerers, etc. after they have spent their allocated time in the spirit world are resurrected and receive their reward accordingly (D&C 138:59). They are washed clean of their debt (penalty), for one way or another it has been paid, whether through Christ or through their refusal of a fulness of glory, the full price of which only Christ could have paid. If paid through Christ, exaltation; if paid by refusing to progress, some lesser glory.

As far as David goes, my read is that all has been taken away from him, but who knows what can be achieved through a protracted tenure in the spirit world? The Lord knows how much time and what opportunities each of us needs, He provides it, and we choose whether to receive it. The outcome of that arrangement is entirely up to us.

Edited February 1, 2018 by CV75

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, estradling75 said:

While understandable you have to be sure you do not swing to the other extreme...  One extreme is to take everything they say as the "Word of God" but the other is to say that the prophets only teach their opinion.

Both extremes make the Lord's pattern a waste of time and space and will lead to false hoods.

We need to listen for the united voice and it does exist and they are using it... so listen for it.

 

Its apparent that our doctrine regarding the plan of salvation is anything but settled. Almost all LDS have a certain belief that differs from the next. Even manuals differ slightly from one to the next. Its one reason we discuss these things because we have unanswered questions. For instance, its quite confusing on things such as- is baptism required for the celestial kingdom, or celestial and terrestrial, or all three? And- is marriage only allowed in the celestial kingdom or also allowed in the terrestrial or telestial? What about those terrestrial heirs who have finally repented and are baptized and thus want the other temple blessings such as marriage? Are they screwed at that point?  Then when you start breaking down the principles of laws and covenants it gets even more confusing. For instance- the baptismal covenant is interesting in that it requires us to do all that the Lord commands us to do. It literally encompasses all future commandments and covenants made. Thus, by partaking of tge sacrament we renew our baptismal covenant which includes all other covenants we have thus entered into. For this reason we dont have to have a different ordinance that allows us to renew our temple covenants. The baptismal covenant and ordinance of that renewal- the sacrament, allows us to renew all covenants through that one covenant and ordinance. But, this isnt all. When we enter into the baptismal covenant we promise to do all that tge Lord has already commanded which include the commandment to be ye therefor perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. This is largely misunderstood. Many do not realize the baptismal covenant requires us to enter the path that leads to exaltation- the path of absolute perfection. Now, talk about throwing a monkey wrench into things! If the terrestrial heirs repent and are baptized they have thus covenanted to do "all" that the Lord has commanded them which includes becoming perfect like our Heavenly Father. How then can they be perfected if they cannot marry or cannot progress to that perfection because they are stuck eternally in a kingdom that doesnt allow exaltation? But, even this isnt all. For instance- we know about telestial, terrestrial, and celestial law. We learn of these laws in the temple. We learn there that one of the first laws we abide by is the law of chastity and sexual relations to our spouse only. This is a telestial law as it is a requirement of the telestial kingdom because we make that covenant in that kingdom. But wait, some say telestial heirs do not enter into marriage. So how then is this covenant and law a telestial law if it cannot be achieved? If we but remember this one simple principle all truth can be discerned. And what is that principle? That God has never given a law or covenant to his children other than to advance them to become perfect just as his is. No law that God has ever made, or will ever decree, will do something less than advance them into perfection. Therefore, one cannot be saved from hell unless he enters the road with its destination of perfection and exaltation in all things. That gate by which one enters that path is repentance and baptism. Once one enters he has covenanted with God to be obedient to all that the Lord has commanded and that, in time, they will receive exaltation. To believe one can enter this covenant path and then find some plateu short of full obedience is to deny the very principle, law, and covenant of the baptismal covenant itself.

[warnerfranklin]

I don’t think there is a contradiction, just different ways people look at what the next life will be like. 

Concerning other matters:

No eye has seen, no ear has heard, nor heart has conceived what God has in store for those who love Him.  1 Corinthians 2:9

The central doctrine of heaven is if we are faithful and obedient will be rewarded and in ways we cannot imagine.

If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  1 John 1:9

If we confess, if we repent, if we continually try to do better that will be enough.  “You haven’t failed until you stop trying.” Elder Uchtdorf 

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angles nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depths, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus.

If we desire to be with our Father he will remove all obstacles between us and Him. 

I can’t change the past (which like all of us is checkered), I am told not to worry about the future (Matthew 6:34). I think we will be rewarded according to our faithfulness. Hopefully, I’m getting better at that. 

1 John 3:2

 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by warnerfranklin
Thought came to mind

[brlenox]

4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, you admit that prophets have opinions too and not everything they say is truth.

This is not your real position on the matter as best as I can tell from past interaction. This may be your justification to yourself but the real approach that you take is that if they do not agree with your perceptions of truth then they do not understand the truth as you do.  You are the top of the food chain for knowing truth in your paradigm and you do not even care if the prophets have spoken under the direction of the spirit or not.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, warnerfranklin said:

I don’t think there is a contradiction, just different ways people look at what the next life will be like. 

Concerning other matters:

No eye has seen, no ear has heard, nor heart has conceived what God has in store for those who love Him.  1 Corinthians 2:9

The central doctrine of heaven is if we are faithful and obedient will be rewarded and in ways we cannot imagine.

If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  1 John 1:9

If we confess, if we repent, if we continually try to do better that will be enough.  “You haven’t failed until you stop trying.” Elder Uchtdorf 

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angles nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depths, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus.

If we desire to be with our Father he will remove all obstacles between us and Him. 

I can’t change the past (which like all of us is checkered), I am told not to worry about the future (Matthew 6:34). I think we will be rewarded according to our faithfulness. Hopefully, I’m getting better at that. 

1 John 3:2

 

 

 

I enjoy reading your comments!

As a side note, has anyone told you you (or at least your avatar) look just like John Shea (Lex Luthor on Lois and Clark, the New Adventures of Superman)?

[brlenox]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Its apparent that our doctrine regarding the plan of salvation is anything but settled. Almost all LDS have a certain belief that differs from the next. Even manuals differ slightly from one to the next. Its one reason we discuss these things because we have unanswered questions. 1.) For instance, its quite confusing on things such as- is baptism required for the celestial kingdom, or celestial and terrestrial, or all three? 2.) And- is marriage only allowed in the celestial kingdom or also allowed in the terrestrial or telestial? 3.) What about those terrestrial heirs who have finally repented and are baptized and thus want the other temple blessings such as marriage? Are they screwed at that point?  Then when you start breaking down the principles of laws and covenants it gets even more confusing. For instance- the baptismal covenant is interesting in that it requires us to do all that the Lord commands us to do. It literally encompasses all future commandments and covenants made. Thus, by partaking of tge sacrament we renew our baptismal covenant which includes all other covenants we have thus entered into. For this reason we dont have to have a different ordinance that allows us to renew our temple covenants. The baptismal covenant and ordinance of that renewal- the sacrament, allows us to renew all covenants through that one covenant and ordinance. But, this isnt all. When we enter into the baptismal covenant we promise to do all that tge Lord has already commanded which include the commandment to be ye therefor perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. This is largely misunderstood. Many do not realize the baptismal covenant requires us to enter the path that leads to exaltation- the path of absolute perfection. Now, talk about throwing a monkey wrench into things! If the terrestrial heirs repent and are baptized they have thus covenanted to do "all" that the Lord has commanded them which includes becoming perfect like our Heavenly Father. 4.) How then can they be perfected if they cannot marry or cannot progress to that perfection because they are stuck eternally in a kingdom that doesnt allow exaltation? But, even this isnt all. For instance- we know about telestial, terrestrial, and celestial law. We learn of these laws in the temple. We learn there that one of the first laws we abide by is the law of chastity and sexual relations to our spouse only. This is a telestial law as it is a requirement of the telestial kingdom because we make that covenant in that kingdom. But wait, some say telestial heirs do not enter into marriage. So how then is this covenant and law a telestial law if it cannot be achieved? If we but remember this one simple principle all truth can be discerned. And what is that principle? That God has never given a law or covenant to his children other than to advance them to become perfect just as his is. No law that God has ever made, or will ever decree, will do something less than advance them into perfection. Therefore, one cannot be saved from hell unless he enters the road with its destination of perfection and exaltation in all things. That gate by which one enters that path is repentance and baptism. Once one enters he has covenanted with God to be obedient to all that the Lord has commanded and that, in time, they will receive exaltation. To believe one can enter this covenant path and then find some plateu short of full obedience is to deny the very principle, law, and covenant of the baptismal covenant itself.

1.)  is baptism required for the celestial kingdom, or celestial and terrestrial, or all three?

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Joseph Fielding Smith

Baptism is the door into the celestial kingdom. All the ordinances of the gospel pertain to the celestial kingdom, and any person who is faithful to the covenant of baptism will be entitled to enter there, but no person can receive an exaltation in the celestial kingdom without the ordinances of the temple. The endowments are for advancement in that kingdom, and the sealings for our perfection, provided we keep our covenants and obligations.

People baptized, and who are not endowed in the temple of the Lord, may enter the celestial kingdom. But that does not mean that a baptized person is going to get the exaltation in that kingdom. He is not going to pass on to the fulness just by being baptized. He will not pass on to the fulness even after he has been baptized and received an endowment in the temple. He has also to receive the other ordinances so that he can become through his faithfulness and obedience a son of God. . . .

The first principles of the gospel are principles that save. By obedience to them we enter the celestial kingdom of God. Then, when we get into that kingdom, if we have received the other covenants, have been true and faithful to other obligations, we will advance until we shall become like God -- his sons, his daughters, receiving a fulness of his kingdom. That is the promise. (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:45-46)

Quote

Bruce R. McConkie

Baptism serves four purposes: 1. It is for the remission of sins. (D. & C. 13; 19:31; 20:37; 33:11; 49:13; 68:27; 84:27, 64, 74; 107:20.) 2. It admits the repentant person to membership in the Church and kingdom of God on earth. (D. & C. 20:37, 71-74.) 3. It is the gate to the celestial kingdom of heaven, that is, it starts a person out on the straight and narrow path which leads to eternal life. (2 Ne. 9:23-24; 31:13-21.) 4. It is the means whereby the door to personal sanctification is opened. "Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name," the resurrected Lord proclaimed to the Nephites, "that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day." (3 Ne. 27:20.) [Mormon Doctrine, p. 70]

 

Quote

Lorenzo Snow

There is but one way in which men can receive salvation, exaltation, and glory, and that is through the order of baptism and the ordinances connected therewith. No mortal man or woman will ever receive celestial glory unless he or she has been baptized, receiving this ordinance personally or by proxy. That is the order that God has established. (Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, p.96)

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Spencer W. Kimball

The celestial world can only be entered by unlocking the doors with the proper keys -- the first key being baptism by immersion for the remission of sins and then the reception of the Holy Ghost follows, by those in authority to give it. Then we must continue with our church and temple work, serving others, loving the Lord with all our heart, might, mind, and strength, and loving our fellowmen more than ourselves. (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.28)

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Spencer W. Kimball

One young man said that he expected to reach exaltation in the celestial kingdom as one of the Lord's messengers, without having to marry. He does not understand. No one who rejects the covenant of celestial marriage can reach exaltation in the  eternal kingdom of God.

[Quotes D&C 131:1-4.]

He cannot have an increase! He cannot have exaltation! The Lord says further in the 132nd section of the Doctrine and Covenants:

"No one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory" (D&C 132:4).

No one! It matters not how righteous they may have been, how intelligent or how well trained they are. No one will enter this highest glory unless he enters into the covenant, and this means the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. These are the words of the Lord. They were said directly to us.

"And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law. …

"Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants [they may be worthy and righteous, but they are ministering servants], to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

"For these angels did not abide by law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever." (D&C 132:6, 16-17.)

Some might say, "Well, I'd be satisfied to just become an angel," but you would not. One never would be satisfied just to be a ministering angel to wait upon other people when he could be the king himself. ("The Importance of Celestial Marriage," Ensign, Oct. 1979, pp. 5-6)

Quote

Joseph Fielding Smith

To enter the celestial and obtain exaltation it is necessary that the whole law be kept. The word of the Lord is that they of the celestial world are those sanctified from all unrighteousness. (D.C. 88:21, cf. verse 18.) To become sanctified there are certain definite covenants we must keep in faithfulness, living by "every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God." "They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, * * * That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto the power." These are they "who overcome by faith and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true." (D.C. 76:51-53. See also verses 54-60.) And they who are not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise and who are not just and true, need not expect their great blessings. (The Way to Perfection, p.206)

 

Quote

John Taylor

God is interested in the whole of the human family. He cannot take them all into the celestial kingdom, for they are not all prepared to go there, and you cannot prepare them and He cannot, because they have to be governed by certain laws and certain principles and certain feelings, and if they are not governed by these and will not be governed by a celestial law, they are not prepared for a celestial glory. There are some that may be governed by a terrestrial law, and may be prepared for a terrestrial glory, but not for a celestial glory. Still, they are God's children, and He is doing the best by them He can. (Journal of Discourses, 24:194-195)

 

Quote

Neal A. Maxwell

Repentance requires both turning away from evil and turning to God. (See Deut. 4:30; see also Bible Dictionary, s.v. "Repentance.") When "a mighty change" is required, full repentance involves a 180-degree turn, and without looking back! (Alma 5:12-13.) Initially, this turning reflects progress from telestial to terrestrial behavior, and later on to celestial behavior. As the sins of the telestial world are left behind, the focus falls ever more steadily upon the sins of omission, which often keep us from full consecration. ("Repentance," Ensign, Nov. 1991, p. 30)

 

Quote

 

 

The terrestrial kingdom will not be enjoyed by the very wicked, for they shall obtain only the telestial. Neither will the terrestrial be given to the valiant, the faithful, the perfected, for they will go into the celestial kingdom prepared for those who live the celestial laws. But into the terrestrial will go those who do not measure up to the celestial. Speaking of one category of terrestrial people, the Lord says: "These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God." (D&C 76:79.) The "unvaliant" Latter-day Saint will find himself there. (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.48)

 

Quote

As I read the seventy-sixth section of the Doctrine and Covenants, the great vision given to the Prophet Joseph Smith, I remember that the Lord says to that terrestrial degree of glory may go those who are not valiant in the testimony, which means that many of us who have received baptism by proper authority, many who have received other ordinances, even temple blessings, will not reach the celestial kingdom of glory unless we live the commandments and are valiant. There are many people in this Church today who think they live, but they are dead to the spiritual things. And I believe even many who are making pretenses of being active are also spiritually dead. Their service is much of the letter and less of the spirit. (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.183)

 

Due to length I will only address in this post your first question.  I have provided a preponderance of witnesses who affirm that baptism is required only for entrance into the celestial kingdom.

[Anddenex]

18 minutes ago, brlenox said:

Due to length I will only address in this post your first question.  I have provided a preponderance of witnesses who affirm that baptism is required only for entrance into the celestial kingdom.

These are great quotes, particularly I am fond of these two:

 

Quote

 

John Taylor

God is interested in the whole of the human family. He cannot take them all into the celestial kingdom, for they are not all prepared to go there, and you cannot prepare them and He cannot, because they have to be governed by certain laws and certain principles and certain feelings, and if they are not governed by these and will not be governed by a celestial law, they are not prepared for a celestial glory. There are some that may be governed by a terrestrial law, and may be prepared for a terrestrial glory, but not for a celestial glory. Still, they are God's children, and He is doing the best by them He can. (Journal of Discourses, 24:194-195)

 

Quote

 

Spencer W. Kimball

Some might say, "Well, I'd be satisfied to just become an angel," but you would not. One never would be satisfied just to be a ministering angel to wait upon other people when he could be the king himself. ("The Importance of Celestial Marriage," Ensign, Oct. 1979, pp. 5-6)

 

In these quotes it is apparent that Celestial glory requires baptism (John 3: 5 is sufficient also); however, I don't see anything negating baptism being a requirement also to receive a kingdom of glory. Although not exaltation, telestial and terrestrial are glories of salvation or of being saved. Everyone except the sons of perdition are saved to a kingdom of glory.

We perform baptisms for people who do not accept the gospel in this life and in the next (for those who never had the opportunity to accept or reject in this life). Yet all the sons and daughters of God will be baptized through mortality or by proxy. It wouldn't shock me if baptism is in part a reason they can obtain a kingdom of glory (what they have become), all because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, his mercy, grace, and love.

Do you have any quotes that negate this idea?

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, brlenox said:

This is not your real position on the matter as best as I can tell from past interaction. This may be your justification to yourself but the real approach that you take is that if they do not agree with your perceptions of truth then they do not understand the truth as you do.  You are the top of the food chain for knowing truth in your paradigm and you do not even care if the prophets have spoken under the direction of the spirit or not.

I dont think thats a very accurate description at all. I am way dumber than the prophets when it comes to revelation, truth, etc. Just in this one area its kind of like an elephant in the room. Its a matter of finding and reconciling the truth. Too many contradictions in an area should raise flags in all of us. We all can be guided in truth. The spirit will not testify the truth of something unless its actually true. The witness of truth is an interesting thing and one not to take lightly. Now, we can teach official doctrine, but just because we teach something doesnt make it true. Therefore, if we question something we see that lacks that witness of truth there is no error. That is all I am doing.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, brlenox said:

1.)  is baptism required for the celestial kingdom, or celestial and terrestrial, or all three?

 

 

 

 

 

Due to length I will only address in this post your first question.  I have provided a preponderance of witnesses who affirm that baptism is required only for entrance into the celestial kingdom.

So, how then are the rest (besides the celestial) cleansed?