3rd hour meeting on fostering love with members of the LGBTQ community

[wenglund]

On 2/6/2018 at 1:39 PM, MrShorty said:

I don't know, Vort. This begins to feel to me like a fallacious use of a slipper slope argument. I'm not convinced that accepting homosexuality as good will certainly lead to acceptance of all of those other things. I can readily see how accepting gay marriage readily leads to accepting polygamous marriages, but I'm not sure the other concepts necessarily follow. As such, this feels more like fearmongering to me.

While Vort wasn't actually making a slippery slope argument (rather, he was testing principle consistency), a rational slippery slope argument could be made.

The difference between a rational and fallacious slippery slopes argument is the strength or weakness of the case, but better yet, the ability to demonstrate that the slip down the slope has, in fact, begun to happening.  

Regarding gay marriage, I demonstrate that the Floodgates Have Opened to other aberrant forms of "marriage" as well as a decline in morals. And, this wasn't by accident. It was planned.  The intent has been to give the impression that the movement is about marriage equality, convince enough low information people to usefully advocate for the cause, when in truth it was designed to destroy traditional marriage, and perhaps even the whole institution of marriage. (see Marriage in Crisis)

If you think about it in relation to incestuous marriages,  under the old law it was prohibited because of plausible birth defects in children. However, the birth defect issue isn't a problem with gay marriage since homosexuals cant conceive children between them.  In other words, two homosexual brothers, or father and son, could get married without fear of having children with birth defects. So, given that the  birth defect issue is no longer a problem, then the legal barrier to incestuous relationships, at least between homosexuals, no longer has merit. Thereby opening the door to legalization of incestuous gay marriages,  which is a slip down the slope towards legalization of hetrerosexual incestuous relationship.. If you think this unlikely, see HERE  and HERE.

But, this is all moot since marriage between homosexuals has been legalized. And, so, some of us will just have to sit back and watch our civilization continue to crumble while muttering, "I told you so."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

God commanded us to love one another.

He didn't command us to love one another's destructive, perverse, or sinful behaviors. (In fact, he commanded otherwise.)

Confusing the two is a gross abuse of scripture.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Blossom76]

If you love Me, you will obey what I command (John 14:15), who decides which parts of Gods word to obey and which parts to disregard

[Propegation Corporation!]

Utah has continued to have the highest suicide rates for teens and adults in the country according to the CDC for a long time. As a medical worker I APPLAUD the bishop for fostering compassion & the practice of manners toward the LGBTQIA community and it's allies.

[Grunt]

14 minutes ago, changed said:

27 ¶ But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.

30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

 

be determined in one mind and in one heart, united in all things...

 

That which unites and bring people together is of God.

That which excludes, condemns, isolates, rejects .... is not of g-d.

 

Doctrine and Covenants 95:1-2
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you whom I love, and whom I alove I also chasten that their sins may be bforgiven, for with the cchastisement I prepare a way for their ddeliverance in all things out of etemptation, and I have loved you

Luke 7:47-48
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are aforgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

You’re making fallacious innuendos.  Refusing to normalize sin isn’t exclusionary.  

[anatess2]

18 hours ago, changed said:

 

Do you know what happens to people who are put in solitary confinement for long time periods?  They go insane, and try to kill themselves....

For someone who cannot get "married", because they are physically different - are born without body parts, are not male, are not female - and they know who they are, what they are ...  they already feel alone, isolated - .... solitary confinement makes people go insane.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement#Effects_and_access_to_care

 

There's no such thing as forced solitary confinement.  Christ is always there for you ready with the grace of His atonement.  God's blessings are raining from the sky.  It's your choice if you put up an umbrella so you get isolated from it.  And indulging in the sin is opening that umbrella - it's what isolates people.

And it is disingenuous to say that not getting married is solitary confinement.  It's needlessly hurtful to say it to the gajillion single men and women out there making it through no fault of their own.  We say the same thing to these single people - do not engage in sexual pleasure.  Just because you are not sexually active doesn't make you feel alone, isolated, going insane.  That's a terrible thing to say just so you can excuse sin!  We have FAMILIES for a reason.

And the fallacy here is, of course, this New Age idea that you can only love people you are sexually attracted to.  What a lie that is - a lie coming straight from Satan's tongue.  A lie that has caused despair and death in the LGBT community.  Love IS A WHOLE LOT MORE than sex.  Sex does not lead to Love.  Rather, Love leads to physical expressions, sex just being one of them.  If you can only love those you are physically attracted to, then that's how people "fall out of love" with their 50-something menopausal wife and exchange her with a 20-something hottie.  DEFINE LOVE.  If your definition requires - sexually attracted to - you've failed the test.

Edited February 8, 2018 by anatess2

[Guest MormonGator]

5 hours ago, Propegation Corporation! said:

Utah has continued to have the highest suicide rates for teens and adults in the country according to the CDC for a long time. As a medical worker I APPLAUD the bishop for fostering compassion & the practice of manners toward the LGBTQIA community and it's allies.

That is heartbreaking, and it's a national shame that Utah has to deal with. 

In fairness, I can't imagine even the most orthodox, traditional marriage supporting LDS being okay with that statistic either. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by MormonGator

[Vort]

11 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

That is heartbreaking, and it's a national shame that Utah has to deal with. 

It's also false.

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, Vort said:

It's also false.

Having dealt with suicide in my own family, I can assure you that even one suicide is a tragedy that we all have to deal with. I don't care if Utah is 1st, 5th, or 50th. 

[anatess2]

10 minutes ago, Vort said:

It's also false.

I'm fairly certain Alaska is the highest, if not one of the highest suicide rates.  I always thought it was because they don't get enough sunlight half the year.

Utah is up there, though with high suicide rates too, even if it's not the highest.

[Guest MormonGator]

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/suicide-mortality/suicide.htm

And @Vort, I know that everyone likes to ignore or dance around uncomfortable statistics, but the truth is out there, and it's tragic. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by MormonGator

[Vort]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/suicide-mortality/suicide.htm

And @Vort, I know that everyone likes to ignore or dance around uncomfortable statistics, but the truth is out there, and it's tragic. 

As I pointed out, the anti-Mormon's statement is false.

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, Vort said:

As I pointed out, the anti-Mormon's statement is false.

Whatever helps you sleep at night, I guess. 

I can assure you that the leaders of the church know this, and are perhaps even more devastated by this than you or I can imagine. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by MormonGator

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Whatever helps you sleep at night. I can assure you that the leaders of the church know this, and are perhaps even more devastated by this than you or I can imagine. 

The leaders of the Church know the anti-Mormon's statement is false? Glad to hear it.

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

You’re making fallacious innuendos.  Refusing to normalize sin isn’t exclusionary.  

Yes, this is correct, and it is usually what you get when people seek to mingle the philosophies of the world with scripture. They are unable to see truth through the Spirit: things as they really are, as they really were, and as they are to come.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

17 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/suicide-mortality/suicide.htm

And @Vort, I know that everyone likes to ignore or dance around uncomfortable statistics, but the truth is out there, and it's tragic. 

Wow, I had not seen this before. That is really disturbing. 

[lostinwater]

13 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

And @Vort, I know that everyone likes to ignore or dance around uncomfortable statistics, but the truth is out there, and it's tragic. 

i think when you stress a specific ideal a *lot*, you almost inevitably create a sense that those who do not follow said ideal are less or bad or incorrect for doing so.  And i think the knowing that one is not the ideal that was pounded into their brain as being good from the day they were born is a huge contributing factor to Utah's comparatively high rate of suicide.  

Each of us has people our ideals cast shadows upon.  And it's perhaps a touch naive to justify all the pain those shadows create by merely telling people to be what our ideals says they should be.  i guess you can't stop having ideals in order to not cast shadows, but i think Utah's high suicide rate is a sign that the number and level of importance assigned to one's adherence to the church's ideals have a (unhealthy in my opinion) death grip on the sense of self worth of a lot of people.  

But, no doubt someone could say the same of my ideals - and correctly highlight my hypocritical nature in this regard.

[mordorbund]

14 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/suicide-mortality/suicide.htm

And @Vort, I know that everyone likes to ignore or dance around uncomfortable statistics, but the is out there, and it's tragic. 

I clicked your link and saw that suicide is up across states from 2005 to 2014. Utah was 10th in 2005 but jumped up to 5th in 2014 (why aren't there any years in between?). What happened in that decade to cause the jump? Was it the Church's stance on homosexuality, a stance publicly stated in '95's Proclamation on the Family, and legally defended in Hawaii and California? Nope, that was before 2005. What's happened since then? What has happened across the nation to increase suicides, but especially to exacerbate it in Utah? Maybe @Just_A_Guy has an idea?

[zil]

Trigger alert  - very, very few (fewer than I would have thought prior to this thread, but oh well) will like what I've written below.  Study the scriptures (all of them, start to end, not just your favorite cherry-picked verses) and the teachings of latter-day prophets and apostles.  (NOTE: If you do not believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Christ's true church restored to the earth, led by him and with his authority, then I don't expect for a minute that you'll like anything below.  But apparently some who believe that won't either.)

On 2/5/2018 at 6:27 PM, MormonGator said:

If the LDS church goes down the community of christ path and becomes more "liberal" on sexual matters what do you think will happen? Not a challenge/argument, just a question. 

Some people seem to think that the doctrine of eternal families, consisting of man + woman and their children is secondary or optional or policy or something other than foundational / divine / eternal / unchangeable.  I don't believe for a minute that God invented this idea - it predates his Godhood in the same way as time, space, matter, light, darkness, heat, cold predate it (such things are not invented, they simply are and always have been).  Everything hinges on such family being the fundamental unit of eternity - the point of all else, all the teachings, the Plan of Salvation, the Atonement of Jesus Christ, is to seal us into such eternal units (and to seal all those units to each other).  Such a unit is the start of everything and the end goal of everything.

Those who choose not to be part of said eternal units will remain separate / individual.  They will not be married to anyone / anything.  There will be no "alternate" family structure in eternity, no coupling without eternal marriage because perfection will not need it, because alternates cannot be perfect (cannot produce offspring), and the unexalted will not be allowed it (read the scriptures, they teach clearly that there will be no couples outside the celestial kingdom, and at least one D&C verse (and one of the JFSs (I forget which)) gives a clue as to the mechanism that will ensure this).  The notion of exaltation including sperm donation, surrogate mothers, test tube babies, artificial insemination, adoption, childlessness, abortion, or any other replacement for or avoidance of normal procreation is absurd.  It defies the definition of exalted / perfected / flawless / eternal.  Such things are a consequence of mortality (and often are only made necessary due to sin).  Regardless of the fact that the mechanism of creating spirit children is unrevealed to mortals, we know that a male and a female sealed as eternal husband and wife are required for procreation to happen, and the nature of perfection precludes any alternate / external mechanisms.

If spirit children can be created in some other way (e.g. with two men, or two women, or just one person), then God is a liar and nothing in any scripture attributed to God can be believed.  Our existence as spirits and then as mortals supposedly started with a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother creating us as literal offspring of both parents.  Our mortal reality is supposedly patterned after their eternal reality.  If this combination were flexible, there was no good reason for God not to reveal that fact the very first time homosexuality became an issue, instead of calling homosexuality a sin and insisting on male + female marriage.  If this combination were flexible in eternity, there's no good reason God couldn't have said any old combination - or no combination at all - is good enough in mortality, as long as folks are committed to each other (or to their offspring).  For that matter, there is no good reason not to have made mortal biology such that the combination is as flexible / optional as the eternal combination - surely we don't want to imply that if it is possible in the eternities, God could not pattern mortality in the same way - He's supposed to be omniscient and omnipotent.

Mortality began with this family unit.  It is one of the very few things consistently taught from the beginning.  At the moment, I can think of only three things which have been taught consistently from the beginning: Man + Woman forms a family and is meant to continue into eternity, the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and the need to obey God.  To pull the rug on one of these is to pull the rug on all of them.

I know, lots of people think this "rigidity" to be cruel and unusual punishment and therefore God wouldn't do it (meanwhile, there's this outer darkness / perdition thing you'll need to deny to support your "logic").  I expect God knows everything a lot better than we do and no one in any kingdom of glory will accuse him of being unjust (and if the folks in outer darkness do, they'll know they're lying).

So, to answer your question - it cannot happen (eternal impossibility).  If it did happen, it would mean that God is a liar from the beginning, at which point all religion that starts with Genesis is false and pointless.  But don't worry (or, sorry to burst your bubble), it's not going to happen.

[Guest]

20 hours ago, changed said:

  - seeing the entire person (who is much more than their sexual identity) 

I still wonder then, why gays and transgender always "come out" because "I have to be true to who I am".

It seems that this is one factor that outweighs all others for them.  You can't have it both ways.  Either this is their defining characteristic (or at least a major one) or they can decide to change it. How many men do you know of who are willing to cut off <> just so they can declare who they are?

Even if there are other factors that define them, it is a big factor in their definition or else they would not have chosen to claim it is a permanent part of them.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Guest

[Guest MormonGator]

18 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Wow, I had not seen this before. That is really disturbing. 

It is. We can stick our heads in the sand or go off on tangents about this or that, but eventually it'll cost us dearly in the long run if we ignore it.  

13 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

i think when you stress a specific ideal a *lot*, you almost inevitably create a sense that those who do not follow said ideal are less or bad or incorrect for doing so.  And i think the knowing that one is not the ideal that was pounded into their brain as being good from the day they were born is a huge contributing factor to Utah's comparatively high rate of suicide.  

Each of us has people our ideals cast shadows upon.  And it's perhaps a touch naive to justify all the pain those shadows create by merely telling people to be what our ideals says they should be.  i guess you can't stop having ideals in order to not cast shadows, but i think Utah's high suicide rate is a sign that the number and level of importance assigned to one's adherence to the church's ideals have a (unhealthy in my opinion) death grip on the sense of self worth of a lot of people.  

But, no doubt someone could say the same of my ideals - and correctly highlight my hypocritical nature in this regard.

Like all suicides, there are a multitude of reasons for it. It's not simple. However, the fundamental problems of why people kill themselves obviously need to be addressed, and we need to ask some tough questions. 

13 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

I clicked your link and saw that suicide is up across states from 2005 to 2014. Utah was 10th in 2005 but jumped up to 5th in 2014 (why aren't there any years in between?). What happened in that decade to cause the jump? Was it the Church's stance on homosexuality, a stance publicly stated in '95's Proclamation on the Family, and legally defended in Hawaii and California? Nope, that was before 2005. What's happened since then? What has happened across the nation to increase suicides, but especially to exacerbate it in Utah? Maybe @Just_A_Guy has an idea?

Just to be clear, I don't think it's strictly because of the church teachings on homosexuality. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

12 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Just to be clear, I don't think it's strictly because of the church teachings on homosexuality. 

I agree. The point is, it's alarming and needs to be addressed. 

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I agree. The point is, it's alarming and needs to be addressed. 

Bill goes to the doctors office because he has a growth on his neck. The doctor says, "Oh no! It's cancer. You need treatment right now." Bill says, "You fool! I don't believe it's cancer! It's a conspiracy!' The doctor says, "Bill, you need to address this." Bill goes on his merry way. Six months later, the growth is the size of a softball. Bill goes to the doctors again. This time, the doctor says, "Sorry Bill. We could have treated this six months ago, but you stuck your head in the sand. You have three weeks to live. Get your affairs in order." 

Sorry Bill. 

it's the same thing. You can problems if you'd like, but they don't ignore you. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by MormonGator

[wenglund]

7 hours ago, Propegation Corporation! said:

Utah has continued to have the highest suicide rates for teens and adults in the country according to the CDC for a long time. As a medical worker I APPLAUD the bishop for fostering compassion & the practice of manners toward the LGBTQIA community and it's allies.

The suicide rates have been climbing as acceptance of homosexuality also climbs. If we see the pattern, then we will rightly conclude that the problem isn't with the Church and its stance on morality, but with the culture.and its stance on permissiveness and encouragement of immorality.

Until people grasp this, the stated problem will get worse. We will continue to kill ourselves with a warped sense of kindness and love.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Guest]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

Having dealt with suicide in my own family, I can assure you that even one suicide is a tragedy that we all have to deal with. I don't care if Utah is 1st, 5th, or 50th. 

Then what does it matter about Utah?

The numbers are not as important as the why.  What are the explanations given? AK, NM, MT, & WY all have higher rates than UT.  Are they all due to gays being treated badly? Is it all about Mormons?

NY and NJ have the lowest.  What does that mean?  Why are they the lowest?

What is the why.  Until we can get enough information to discuss that, the statistics really don't tell us a whole lot. 

Mountain states tend to be higher -- it is theorized because the lower levels of oxygen and colder temperatures cause physiological stresses on one's mind.  Is that true?  I don't know.  But that's at least a why that is worth discussing.

AK has high rates because of so little light for 6 months that causes imbalances of hormones like serotonin and melatonin.  That's something worth discussing.

We also see similar statistics for Swedes in the US as those of the mountain states.  No idea why Swedes have such a high rate.

If you're saying that the high suicide rates are because of the treatment of gays by other people, why are the gay suicide rates so high in the Southern states where the overall suicide rates are lower?  But for some reason the northwest is still the lowest. Contrasted in some areas, consistent in other areas.  Well, that theory doesn't stand up to scrutiny... unless you have additional data to look at?

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

It is. We can stick our heads in the sand or go off on tangents about this or that, but eventually it'll cost us dearly in the long run if we ignore it.  

Like all suicides, there are a multitude of reasons for it. It's not simple. However, the fundamental problems of why people kill themselves obviously need to be addressed, and we need to ask some tough questions. 

Just to be clear, I don't think it's strictly because of the church teachings on homosexuality. 

Ok.  But the new gal seemed to think it was about gays being treated poorly.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Guest