3rd hour meeting on fostering love with members of the LGBTQ community

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Ok.  But the new gal seemed to think it was about gays being treated poorly.

For the second time-it's not just because of church teaching on homosexuality. People commit suicide for many reasons. That said, asking why someone committed suicide is, for obvious reasons, impossible. All you can do is guess. 

What I said, and what I stand by 100% is that any suicide, or whatever reason, gay or straight or whatever, is a tragedy that needs to be addressed. Even if that means we have to ask tough questions. 

[mordorbund]

38 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I agree. The point is, it's alarming and needs to be addressed. 

Good news! The Church is trying to address it.

https://www.lds.org/topics/suicide?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/get-help/suicide?lang=eng&cid=rda_v_suicide_eng_preventing

[Just_A_Guy]

6 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Even if that means we have to ask tough questions. 

Sure; but two of those tough questions are who benefits when gay Mormon kids choose suicide rather than a life of chastity? and who, in these sorts of discussions, have repeatedly exploited these tragedies to further their own social agenda?

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Just_A_Guy said:

Sure; but two of those tough questions are who benefits when gay Mormon kids choose suicide rather than a life of chastity? and who, in these sorts of discussions, have repeatedly exploited these tragedies to further their own social agenda?

Believe it or not, we don't disagree @Just_A_Guy. Tough questions on one side means the other has to answer them too. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

13 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

Good news! The Church is trying to address it.

https://www.lds.org/topics/suicide?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/get-help/suicide?lang=eng&cid=rda_v_suicide_eng_preventing

Right, and that is great.  They also addressed the suicides of LGBTQ youth here: 

 www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-statement-love-loud-festival

"We applaud the LoveLoud Festival for LGBT youth's aim to bring people together to address teen safety and to express respect and love for all of God’s children."

With this and the links you shared, it seems that our leaders are addressing the issue in different ways in order to meet different needs. I think thats great.

Edited February 8, 2018 by LiterateParakeet

[NeuroTypical]

Yeah, church critics were blaming Utah suicide rates on Mormons 20 years ago, which is long before same-sex marriage and gays were in the national consciousness.  Carb's take on things is absolutely relevant now, and it was relevant then too.

 

[askandanswer]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

It is. We can stick our heads in the sand or go off on tangents about this or that, but eventually it'll cost us dearly in the long run if we ignore it.  

 

Suicide is not a matter to jole about but I can't resist this one:

If we stick our heads in the sand, and leave them there long enough, no doubt that would increase the rate of suicide, through suffocation. 

[Just_A_Guy]

23 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Yeah, church critics were blaming Utah suicide rates on Mormons 20 years ago, which is long before same-sex marriage and gays were in the national consciousness.  Carb's take on things is absolutely relevant now, and it was relevant then too.

 

People blame what they want to blame.  It’s like people who cite the Mountain Meadows Masscre as “proof” that ecclesiastical hierarchies are intrinsically dangerous, while glossing over the fact that the massacre was perpetrated by a militia unit and engineered by ringleaders holding the military ranks of “colonel” and “major”.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Suicide is not a matter to jole about but I can't resist this one:

If we stick our heads in the sand, and leave them there long enough, no doubt that would increase the rate of suicide, through suffocation. 

You can joke around about any topic you'd like, as long as it's funny. That wasn't. It wasn't offensive, just not funny. Don't open with that one. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by MormonGator

[prisonchaplain]

9 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

If you love Me, you will obey what I command (John 14:15), who decides which parts of Gods word to obey and which parts to disregard

There are means of discerning which parts of the Old Testament commandments were ritual (connected to temple worship, animal sacrifices, etc), which were narrowly directed to the Jews in their community covenant with God, and which transcended the immediate community and rituals, and were directed toward all God's followers. One method is to see which OT commands received affirmation in New Testament scriptures. When asked about marriage and adultery, Jesus doubled-down on divorce being only for unfaithfulness, even citing Genesis 2:28-29, indicating that a man and woman would leave family (marry) and join one another and become one. Paul also specified that the OT prohibitions against same-sex intercourse were sustained in the early church.  IN CONTRAST, in Mark's gospel Jesus says that it's not what goes into a person but what comes out that makes him clean--thus declaring all foods clean (kosher). Thus the over 200 commands about avoiding certain foods or combinations were removed for non-Jews. BOTTOM LINE: the Law of Chastity, the sexual mores of the vast majority of Christian movements today are not held to out of triumphalism, or any sense of superiority, but it really is as simple as "Thus sayeth the LORD," or "The Bible tells me so." 

[Grunt]

3 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Wow, I had not seen this before. That is really disturbing. 

It is disturbing, but it doesn’t speak to causation.  

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

9 minutes ago, Grunt said:

It is disturbing, but it doesn’t speak to causation.  

I agree. It doesn't matter what the cause is, it is still disturbing. Idaho is also high on the list.  

Edited February 8, 2018 by LiterateParakeet

[anatess2]

22 hours ago, changed said:

 

everyone is going to have to learn to love everyone.  it's part of forgiveness - if you cannot forgive, then you have the larger sin.

 

 

This is starting to bother me.  You say this like we're not doing it because we don't allow gays to be married... is that it?  Because, I don't see in this thread, or anywhere in the Church where it is taught that we do not love nor forgive homosexuals, or rapists for that matter.

 

[anatess2]

On 2/6/2018 at 7:31 PM, changed said:

No anger or hatred towards anyone - it does not matter if it is LGBT, or cancer, or autism, or poverty or immigration or ______________ fill in the blank with anything a family can experience.  If the issue has not touched you personally - if you have not gone through it yourself, or have not had an immediate family member go through it (and stayed with them through it all) there will be a lack of understanding of what the issues really are.  

This is actually incorrect.  Just because you have not personally experienced something does not mean that you lack understanding of what the issues really are.  That would knock most professors out of college campuses or most politicians out of Congress or any doctor from getting an MD, etc.  The other incorrect statement is that you need to understand the issue to have compassion.

[prisonchaplain]

4 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Yeah, church critics were blaming Utah suicide rates on Mormons 20 years ago, which is long before same-sex marriage and gays were in the national consciousness. ...

 

I can remember hearing about the high rate of Utah suicide during my young days, when anti-LDS "watch" groups were all the rage. It seemed to me that they also threw out the high use of anti-depressants. We've discussed these matters here over the years. Before the LGBT issue, I believe primary blame was placed on perfectionist tendencies, which critics attributed to "works salvation" beliefs. If I were a bishop, I would discard the opposition's rhetoric, but perhaps give some thought to encouraging added teachings on grace.

Edited February 8, 2018 by prisonchaplain

[Guest]

3 hours ago, MormonGator said:

 Even if that means we have to ask tough questions. 

What tough questions are you referring to?

[anatess2]

21 hours ago, mordorbund said:

The fact that my post is interpreted as hate highlights my question I think.

This is THE ISSUE on the matter.  Because there are too many people like @changed who thinks we are HATEFUL because we declare homosexual intercourse as contrary to Godliness.  So, they leave the Church, attack the Church (and its members), or get depressed and kill themselves.  It doesn't even matter that we love them.  The only thing that is acceptable to the other side is that we declare homosexual intercourse as Good because it is hateful to declare otherwise.  This is not a matter to be resolved by the non-homosexual side.  Because LOVE IS BRINGING PEOPLE CLOSER TO CHRIST.  The opposite is not Love.  We don't declare we love somebody as we pave their way to hell.

So, my question to changed... why do you think mordorbund is hateful?  What do you propose mordorbund say so you wouldn't think he's hateful?  What do you propose we, as LDS do about homosexuality so we won't be thought of as hateful?  @Blossom76's proposal of doing what the RLDS-COC does is, of course, wrong.  Because, like I mentioned, Love is helping people get closer to Christ, not paving the path for hell.  Progressiveness doesn't get you closer to Christ.  You may gain a lot of people to join you but that's simply bringing more people to the great and spacious building instead of the tree of life.

[Guest MormonGator]

22 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

What tough questions are you referring to?

Well obviously the toughest question of all time is how come you can't feed a Mogwai after midnight? Isn't it always after midnight? How does that work? Seriously, that ruined Gremlins for me.  

Edited February 8, 2018 by MormonGator

[anatess2]

43 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I can remember hearing about the high rate of Utah suicide during my young days, when anti-LDS "watch" groups were all the rage. It seemed to me that they also threw out the high use of anti-depressants. We've discussed these matters here over the years. Before the LGBT issue, I believe primary blame was placed on perfectionist tendencies, which critics attributed to "works salvation" beliefs. If I were a bishop, and discard the opposition's rhetoric, but perhaps give some thought to encouraging added teachings on grace.

Here's my 2 cents.

There was a time when California sported Asian teen-aged girls as the highest suicide rate.  This was due to the high rate of immigration from Asian countries into California.  Asian girls experienced the greatest chasm between their family values and California values.  This chasm caused a lot of conflict between the strong fabric of discipline in Asian families and the teen-age girl's western disciplined peers.  It can be quite jarring to have to explain to your friends that you can't go to the party because there will be boys there and your friend's parents are out of town.  The conflict causes confusion, depression, desperation, and eventually suicide. 

This doesn't get resolved by making Asian families lose their family culture, especially as Asian family culture is more disciplined than California hedonistic values and I don't see any reason that would lead Asians to change that aspect of their culture within American diversity when that part of their culture leads to stronger societies.  So the teen-ager will need to learn better coping mechanisms for the chasm until she finds a way to resolve them (maturity usually gets you there as the support system of Asian families usually remain cohesive through adulthood) and the Asian family needs to find a way to make the teen know that they are home and they are there throughout the whole ordeal.  The easiest way I can explain this is through my mother.  My Catholic mother, of course, believes I am going to hell.  And she doesn't have any reservations about telling me so.  But even as she is telling me I'm going to hell, she is also telling me she loves me forever.  I never have any doubts that she loves me even as she's smacking me upside the head for becoming LDS - but this is also because I love my mother very much.

I see this as very similar to the situation in Utah when the State is experiencing a bigger and bigger chasm between traditional Utah values and the popularized culture. 

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2018 by anatess2

[prisonchaplain]

16 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

I hope this does happen (I know I won't be popular again ?).  I think the LDS Church could learn a lot from The Community of Christ (RLDS) and their stance on issues like this one.  I think the LDS church needs to change and become more progressive so it can survive long term.  Keep up with the times so to speak.  

To all my LDS friends, and any LDS leadership that cares to take counsel from a Pentecostal jail preacher, please, no, do not go the way of post-modern Christianity. It seems so easy, so popular, so relevant, so accepting/loving/neighborly to interpret scriptures in light of the culture--rather than interpreting our culture in light of God's word--but doing so is folly. The world will NOT love you back. It will use and abuse you, and then discard you. Easy religion and easy churches will die once persecution comes. People join them because they are non-offensive, yet spiritual-seeming. Once society and culture deem all religion offensive, members will flee the easy-going post-modern churches in droves. I'd much rather engage in conversations with those who live like me than with those who claim to believe like me, yet who've placed cultural acceptance above divine revelation (sadly, I have in mind some of the pastors and churches in my very own fellowship). Stay the course! Please.

Edited February 8, 2018 by prisonchaplain

[askandanswer]

7 hours ago, anatess2 said:

This is actually incorrect.  Just because you have not personally experienced something does not mean that you lack understanding of what the issues really are.  That would knock most professors out of college campuses or most politicians out of Congress or any doctor from getting an MD, etc.  The other incorrect statement is that you need to understand the issue to have compassion.

This also wouldn't work well for funeral directors 

(Hey  @MormonGator is this an improvement?) 

[Grunt]

5 hours ago, changed said:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_Mormon_suicides

 1 of 3 adolescent suicides in the US were by lesbian and gay teens

homosexual teens were 2.5 times more likely to attempt suicide than their heterosexual peers

http://rationalfaiths.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/LGBTQCrisis_web.pdf

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865646414/LDS-Church-leaders-mourn-reported-deaths-in-Mormon-LGBT-community.html?pg=all

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1446760/

https://sciencesources.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/1998-12/APA-APAR-141298.php

 

Again, doesn’t determine causation.  People use anecdotal evidence to confirm their bias, ignoring the fact that the push to normalize deviant behavior encourages it, leading these kids to unfulfilling and difficult lives.  

Edited February 9, 2018 by Grunt

[wenglund]

11 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I can remember hearing about the high rate of Utah suicide during my young days, when anti-LDS "watch" groups were all the rage. It seemed to me that they also threw out the high use of anti-depressants. We've discussed these matters here over the years. Before the LGBT issue, I believe primary blame was placed on perfectionist tendencies, which critics attributed to "works salvation" beliefs. If I were a bishop, I would discard the opposition's rhetoric, but perhaps give some thought to encouraging added teachings on grace.

That was a misplaced blame. High expectations is a fundamental strategy for success. On the other hand, risk factors for suicide include a number of health, environmental, and historical factors (see HERE), none of which include striving to become perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect (Mt. 5:48) 

The stress and anxiety factors that  put one at risk for suicide, aren't high achievement, but loss of loved ones (for which the church offers comfort and some relief ), divorce (which the church discourages), and loss of job (which the church helps alleviate through its employment services).

The church also discourages other risk factors for suicide, such as substance abuse--alcohol, drugs, etc..

The church also provides a sense of community and purpose and meaning, which helps lesson health risk factors like depression.

In other words, the church isn't part of the problem (to be  blamed), but part of the solution--even with its imperfections.

As for the high rate of suicides in the Inter-mountain West, it is largely attributable to genetics--i.e high percentage of Scandinavian descendants.  

Thanks, -Wade Engund-

[wenglund]

7 hours ago, changed said:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_Mormon_suicides

 1 of 3 adolescent suicides in the US were by lesbian and gay teens

homosexual teens were 2.5 times more likely to attempt suicide than their heterosexual peers

http://rationalfaiths.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/LGBTQCrisis_web.pdf

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865646414/LDS-Church-leaders-mourn-reported-deaths-in-Mormon-LGBT-community.html?pg=all

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1446760/

https://sciencesources.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/1998-12/APA-APAR-141298.php

 

Again, these rates have been climbing along with acceptance of homosexuality. Also increasing are STDs and domestic violence among homosexuals couples as well as divorce rates, etc. (see HERE), , 

Each of these upwards trends are not coincidental, but directly related. (ibid) They are the result of increased immorality within the broader culture , and not the discomfort from moral promptings voiced by a decreasing religious community, or even various levels of rejection therefrom.

Until we get this, the problem will continue to increase and the fatalities climb. We need to stop confusing the solution with the problem.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited February 9, 2018 by wenglund

[anatess2]

23 minutes ago, changed said:

Changed, you post this like we do these things.  This is called weaponized compassion.  Making us feel bad for things we don't do.

Here's a fact:  The suicide rate of transgendered people is ALSO high for the ones who has transitioned.

Here's another fact:  There are educators now who tell 6 year olds they are transgendered and should take hormone therapy.  6 YEAR OLDS.