3rd hour meeting on fostering love with members of the LGBTQ community

[Just_A_Guy]

@changed, Josh Alcorn committed suicide because, in spite of his Y-chromosome,  your side told him that he would never be happy until he cut off his boy parts; and because your side told him he shouldn’t have to wait two more years for adulthood before doing things to himself that his parents believed were inappropriate; and because he had a typical juvenile urge to hurt his parents as viscerally as possible.

If you’re going to start trying to make me feel guilty for the tragic, selfish actions of a misguided teenager I never met, I’m going to turn it right back at you.  Because your side benefits from this, not us.  You are the one exploiting this child’s death in the name of ssssssssexxxxxxxxxxx now!!!!  Your side dominated the Reddit echo chambers where this kid spent his time, and in which he planned his actions.  Our side would have told Josh to focus on the things that make life worth living as a teenager. Study.  Plan for college.  Get your driver’s license.  Get outdoors. Get involved in the community. Make good friends.  Serve the people around you.  Find your individual value, and make a contribution.   Your side told him that if he couldn’t get exactly what he wanted exactly when he wanted it, then his life had no effective value and he may as well roll over and die.  And so he did.  And now his death is being used to spread that same toxic message to even more kids in his situation.  Do you have any idea how sick that is?

Call it philosophical friendly fire, if you wish; Josh Alcorn was clearly killed by your side.  And when you make cynical attempts to profit from his death through posts like the above, I’m tempted to say that you guys aren’t really all that sorry he’s dead.

LGBTQ suicides will only abate when the advocates who claim to care about the issue concede that celibacy/chastity, while a difficult life path, is at least a legitimate and valid one. 

Edited February 9, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[prisonchaplain]

6 hours ago, wenglund said:

In other words, the church isn't part of the problem (to be  blamed), but part of the solution--even with its imperfections.

I've come to realize that we Evangelicals should have been and must be oh so careful in lobbing the secular accusations of the world against faith groups we may disagree with on doctrine. The same salvos can be tossed at any church that practices rigorous Christianity, and we would offer the same response. You're spot on.

Edited February 9, 2018 by prisonchaplain

[NeuroTypical]

It is true that folks struggling with gender identity and transitioning and surgeries and hormone therapy tend to have horribly high rates, not only of attempted suicide, but actually committing suicide.   It's absolutely horrible.

Grabbing that truth and using it to score points against the other side?  Did you at least wait until their bodies cooled down?

Hopefully you're not done changing, Changed, because that's a really crappy tactic. Kind of the opposite of helpful.

 

[lostinwater]

i thought this was a very interesting discussion.  Exceedingly rare you hear a conversation between two people who disagree on this topic showing this level of respect and forethought.

 

[mordorbund]

5 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

It is true that folks struggling with gender identity and transitioning and surgeries and hormone therapy tend to have horribly high rates, not only of attempted suicide, but actually committing suicide.   It's absolutely horrible.

Grabbing that truth and using it to score points against the other side?  Did you at least wait until their bodies cooled down?

The challenge with addressing the suicide problem is that the mere coverage of it can make it quickly turn viral. For example, shortly after Robin Williams took his own life the was a spike in suicides nationally.  Samaritans (an organization aiming to reduce suicide through 1:1 care) has issues some guidelines for public discussion on a particular suicide in an effort to curtail imitation.

[anatess2]

52 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

i thought this was a very interesting discussion.  Exceedingly rare you hear a conversation between two people who disagree on this topic showing this level of respect and forethought.

And here's a conversation between the same Jordan Peterson and transgendered people that did not go too well.  What's the difference between this video and your video?  JBP had the same positions, had the same level of respect, had the same academic way of addressing the conversation... the difference is the transgendered people are doing the exact same thing that @changed is doing... employing weaponized compassion.  That's a surefire way to kill dialogue between otherwise-reasonable people.

 

[Guest MormonGator]

Can a couple "living in sin" have their baby baptized, or do they have to get married first?

[lostinwater]

29 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

And here's a conversation between the same Jordan Peterson and transgendered people that did not go too well.  What's the difference between this video and your video?  JBP had the same positions, had the same level of respect, had the same academic way of addressing the conversation... the difference is the transgendered people are doing the exact same thing that @changed is doing... employing weaponized compassion.  That's a surefire way to kill dialogue between otherwise-reasonable people

Good point.  They certainly did attack him.  Seems like they were wanting a confrontation - someone to take their hurt and anger out on.  Wrong of them (my opinion).  

i hope more reasoned, less hate-filled conversations - like the first video - will occur.  

i think there are lot more people like in the first video - but they tend not to be as vocal.  Or perhaps also that less polarized conversations are not as promoted on YT.

Edited February 9, 2018 by lostinwater

[SilentOne]

11 minutes ago, changed said:

That suicide rates are higher in areas like Utah where there is a large Christian population indicates that many Christians are not helping  or understanding the transgender population as needed.

Suicide Mortality by State

Overall Religiosity by State

Most and Least Christian States in America

[anatess2]

52 minutes ago, changed said:

 

The healthiest thing for everyone is to not make this dualist - my side and your side - but to work together to see how everyone can understand, and be understood, in a more supportive and healthy light. 

 

If so, I'm hoping that you are also addressing the errors of the LGBTQ community and supporters, especially their rabid political wing and culture pushers that has fostered a lot of animosity between the LGBTQs and those who do not support that lifestyle.  I also hope you are self-reflecting on your contribution to such conflict.

Edited February 9, 2018 by anatess2

[wenglund]

53 minutes ago, changed said:

The healthiest thing for everyone is to not make this dualist - my side and your side - but to work together to see how everyone can understand, and be understood, in a more supportive and healthy light.  That suicide rates are higher in areas like Utah where there is a large Christian population indicates that many Christians are not helping  or understanding the transgender population as needed.  It does not matter if you agree with the lifestyle or not, the point is to have more compassion, and treat everyone with more respect.  

The fact that you advise against "dualist", while pointing the finger of blame at the other side, shows a remarkable lack of insight. 

And, your assumptions are incorrect. If you look at the suicide rates by country, the vast majority of the top 38 (the U.S. is ranked 38th) are not predominately Christian nations, let alone a "Mormon issue". In fact, most of them are secular. You will also notice that many of them are smaller and poorer countries.

While understanding and respect are always good things, they are not a significant factor affecting the rate of suicides, and certainly not in the upward trend of suicides which have escalated in spite of increased understanding and respect, particularly among the ALPHABET community. (see previous links)

Whether we agree with the lifestyle or not, is not the problem. Rather, it is the lifestyle, itself, and the inadvertent cultural promotion of toxic elements of the lifestyle, that is the problem. 

If people truly care about the health and welfare of others, they will stop with the vacuous virtue signalling, look seriously and scientifically at the results of cultural-Marxist experimentation and moral decline,  and advocate for what works. Please, stop killing our friends and family and neighbors with warped kindness.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

Edited February 9, 2018 by wenglund

[anatess2]

25 minutes ago, changed said:

I should not have said "Christian" - it seems to be specifically a Mormon issue.  

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Knoll4902.pdf 

Which makes you wonder what is so special about Utah when Catholics have the same message, Muslims have the same message (they even push gays out of buildings in the caliphates), Jews have the same message, etc. etc.

[Just_A_Guy]

2 hours ago, changed said:

[1]The healthiest thing for everyone is to not make this dualist - my side and your side - but to work together to see how everyone can understand, and be understood, in a more supportive and healthy light.  That suicide rates are higher in areas like Utah where there is a large Christian population indicates that many Christians are not helping  or understanding the transgender population as needed.  It does not matter if you agree with the lifestyle or not, the point is to have more compassion, and treat everyone with more respect.  

[2]Take other "sins" - from smoking cigarettes, to getting tattoos, or living in sin - single parents, people who are divorced - common things, but people in these situations are not judged and condemned - they are supported, and helped.  I am not sure why those in the transgender community are not similarly being supported and helped?  But the high suicide rates of transgender individuals among Christian communities is real, and needs to be addressed.  

[3]When you tell a child of transgender parents they are NOT allowed to be baptized, they are NOT allowed on temple trips, they are NOT allowed ____________ fill in the blank.  There is segregation, clicks, people not accepting them and not helping them... 

1.  Why?  Speaking from an institutional standpoint, we didn’t do anything.  There was a sort of equilibrium up through 2000 or so; you guys unilaterally changed the equilibrium by trying to encourage behaviors God has prohibited; gay/transgender kids (purportedly, as per your narrative) started killing themselves; and now fixing this mess is at least 50% our responsibility just because we spent the last twenty years continuing to say the exact same thing (only, maybe, a little more nicely) that we’d been saying for the 170 years before that?

Believe it or not, conservatives have better things to do with their time than to clean up the messes caused by progressive social engineering.

Christianity demands compassion, of course; and individual Mormons can stop being jerks in a variety of situations—but the Church is already preaching that.  It’s been doing that for nearly 190 years now.  An LDS doctrinal/practicional sea change didn’t cause this mess; and an LDS doctrinal/practicional sea change won’t fix it either.  The power to meaningfully address this issue lies with social leftists, who can give LGBTQ kids the freedom to pattern their lives according to the religious principles those kids were raised with.  That can happen by acknowledging that happiness and individual worth really is about much, much more than just sex.  

2.  Not really.  People who aren’t living LDS standards in any aspect frequently feel singled out (whether they actually are or not); and to the degree that the church is able to successfully minister to non-conforming Mormons it’s because those non-conformists don’t seek to have their poor life choices celebrated—they (we!  I’ve definitely got my own, very substantial baggage) commit to the gospel of repentance, come to grips with the errors of the past and move forward in faith trying to tailor our lives to the Gospel rather than vice-versa.

3.  It is the children of parties of gay marriages, not the children of transgender individuals, who are barred from baptism; and the reason is simple:  because repentance for gay couples involves separation and prospective chastity; and the Church doesn’t want to put kids in the position of going home from Primary and telling their parents that they have to get divorced.  LGBTQ activists may get their kicks and giggles out of introducing that kind of destructive drama into a family relationship and then throwing the whole sorry spectacle open for public scrutiny and favorable PR—but conservative Mormons, not so much.

(By the way, I spent most of 2015 helping a young cross-dressing/prospective transgender, former LDS dad prepare for trial in his divorce from his battle-ax of an ex-wife; so I do have some exposure to transgender issues.)

Edited February 10, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[mordorbund]

8 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

3.  It is the children of parties of gay marriages, not the children of transgender individuals, who are barred from baptism; and the reason is simple:  because repentance for gay couples involves separation and prospective chastity; and the Church doesn’t want to put kids in the position of going home from Primary and telling their parents that they have to get divorced.  LGBTQ activists may get their kicks and giggles out of introducing that kind of destructive drama into a family relationship—but conservative Mormons, not so much.

3a. It is not ONLY children in a same-sex marriage that are barred from baptism until maturity. The Church also has a similar prohibition on the children of polygamists.

[lostinwater]

8 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

(By the way, I spent most of 2015 helping a young cross-dressing/prospective transgender, former LDS dad prepare for trial in his divorce from his battle-ax of an ex-wife; so I do have some exposure to transgender issues.)

This is remarkably kind and compassionate of you.

[Just_A_Guy]

1 minute ago, mordorbund said:

3a. It is not ONLY children in a same-sex marriage that are barred from baptism until maturity. The Church also has a similar prohibition on the children of polygamists.

Ayup.  And at least in part, for the same reason—don’t want to have little kids going home and telling Daddy that he’s got to divorce Mommies # 1, 2, 4, 5, and 6.

[Just_A_Guy]

Just now, lostinwater said:

This is remarkably kind and compassionate of you.

Well, in all fairness—he was paying me . . . (most of the time!)

[Anddenex]

6 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

3a. It is not ONLY children in a same-sex marriage that are barred from baptism until maturity. The Church also has a similar prohibition on the children of polygamists.

So you are saying @changed, needed to become a little more informed then making a comment such as this, "↑↑ no other children are excluded like this," BUT then again, she isn't the only one. When a person is viewing life -- God -- through myopic lenses, it is easy to become persuaded and restate false arguments and pretend they mean something.

[NeuroTypical]

Here's two ways to lose with certain people:

1- Decline to preach the gospel to, or baptize, the children of same-sex households.  Because that would put them in an impossible situation of having to choose between God and their parents, following one and rejecting the other. 
Result: Get blamed for splitting up the family, luring children into brainwashing centers and teaching them their parents are horrible hell-bound sinners.  Guilt for the suicide of any kid in this situation is laid on the church's head.

2- Preach the gospel to, and baptize, the children of same-sex households.  Teach them the gospel, which includes God's plan of happiness, a traditional definition of marriage, goals of marrying someone of the opposite gender or nobody. 
Result: Get accused of "segregation, clicks, people not accepting them and not helping them."  Guilt for the suicide of any kid in this situation is laid on the church's head.

Keep in mind, people in these marriages are always telling is this ISN'T like smoking or drinking or sinning - this is a central issue that makes up the core of their being.  Not something that can just be set aside without harm.

So, if the church is what it is, then God is the one directing our actions here.  If it isn't what it claims to be, then I guess it's a whacked-out cultural club with quirky cliques and segregation.  Why would anyone want to be in that club?

Edited February 9, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[Vort]

34 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Here's two ways to lose with certain people:

1- Decline to preach the gospel to, or baptize, the children of same-sex households.  Because that would put them in an impossible situation of having to choose between God and their parents, following one and rejecting the other. 
Result: Get blamed for splitting up the family, luring children into brainwashing centers and teaching them their parents are horrible hell-bound sinners.  Guilt for the suicide of any kid in this situation is laid on the church's head.

2- Preach the gospel to, and baptize, the children of same-sex households.  Teach them the gospel, which includes God's plan of happiness, a traditional definition of marriage, goals of marrying someone of the opposite gender or nobody. 
Result: Get accused of "segregation, clicks, people not accepting them and not helping them."  Guilt for the suicide of any kid in this situation is laid on the church's head.

I think your "ways" and "results" are reversed.

[Vort]

2 hours ago, changed said:

The healthiest thing for everyone is to not make this dualist - my side and your side - but to work together to see how everyone can understand, and be understood, in a more supportive and healthy light.

Then why have you been acting in such an unhealthy manner?

[Vort]

2 hours ago, changed said:

All children - if their parents consent to it - can be baptized except the children of trangender parents.

You don't know what you're talking about, changed. When you are in that situation, you should keep quiet rather than broadcast your ignorance. Unless you're intentionally lying -- but I'm assuming you're just ignorant and too willing to talk rather than keep quiet and learn from those who know more than you.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

You don't know what you're talking about, changed. When you are in that situation, you should keep quiet rather than broadcast your ignorance. Unless you're intentionally lying -- but I'm assuming you're just ignorant and too willing to talk rather than keep quiet and learn from those who know more than you.

I sense the beginning of a beautiful friendship between you two! 

[JohnsonJones]

The Big reason I see that the LDS church changed it's policy in regards to the children of certain marriages actually had very little to do with doctrine, and directly related to what happened to the BSA.  The BSA, contrary to what some may think, changed it's policies because it did not have enough money to fight the lawsuits that were coming.  It was easier to change the policies than to spend the next decade or more fighting the same type of lawsuit time after time after time.

The courts have been weaponized (by both sides of the equation) and have been used as a wedge to force the issue by the LGBT organizations against various non-profits and even churches.  I see the reason the ban came about was in direct relation to these.  Instead of sticking to former policies which is a stance that other organization have taken and lost in the courts because, the LDS church decided to kill it to begin with.  They would kill the wedge that could be used against them and try to force certain policy changes.

I see it more as a legal reasoning, than an actual religious reason.

That said, there is something that bothers me in this thread.  People seem to think all LGBTIA are all the same, which is not accurate.  A Transgendered individual is NOT necessarily Homosexual, and a Homosexual individual is not necessarily Transgendered.  In fact, much of the time there is NO crossover between the two.  There are MANY homosexuals that actually do NOT agree with the Transgendered idea or thoughts.  This in fact has occasionally caused a great deal of friction when utilizing the idea of LGBT as a united group, when in truth, in many instances, they are not as united as people may think.

The Basic idea behind the LGBT movement is not that they are all part of the same group, but that many different types of minorities (not the racial kind, the emotional and sexuality type of minority) can unit together to forge better rights for all of them.  It's an alliance of sorts, but it does not actually mean they all feel the same way or are the same in the way they behave, act, or think.  The L, the G, the B, the T (and the I and the A) are all different groups of people, but people who have united in a political alliance to try to create a larger legal party of individuals to fight for their rights in helping each other...even though they recognize that they are all very different from each other as well.

A prime example is that I can much more easily understand someone who is a Lesbian, who is Gay, who is Bi, or who is Intersex or even Asexual...but I do not really get why a Transgendered individual says that they are Transgendered.  Normally it seems they are insulting the opposite gender when they say things like they like to do girl things (which, for daughters who loved to play football, wrestle, and things that these people call boy things...is INCREDIBLY insulting to her, indicating that girls don't like to do these types of things, or be mechanics and work on cars...etc) and say all the stereotypical things they've heard about the opposite sex...I can't understand that.  Just because they think a stereotype is something that tells them if they are a girl or a boy...doesn't mean it is so in my understanding.  It's a take that I don't agree with.  That is just my opinion though...and in the larger picture of rights...not something I should allow to interfere with treating them equally or fairly.  They think in a way that is different than how I perceive things.  In this, it is something about them that I do not understand.

BUT that does not mean I do not understand their struggle to be accepted and to have rights equal to others.  An individual who is Transgendered is more easily identified many times than other members of the LGBT alliance, and as such face a higher degree of discrimination in seeking jobs and other aspects of their life.  I think it is this joint understanding of discrimination which all the LGBT can relate to that helps them remain in the alliance, even while individual members may not agree with various aspects of each individual portion (for example, as I said, a Homosexual may not agree with the things that a Transgendered individual may think, or the Transgendered individual may find some of the things a Bi-Sexual says is offensive), but they recognize that they all have discrimination against them and can work together to make life better for all of them.

I agree that we should love them, and that the Lord probably loves them just as much as he loves any one of us.  We should not allow ourselves to participate in that type of behavior, but as this is a free nation, we should regulate ourselves, but that does not really give us the right to regulate anyone else in that manner...from what I understand currently.  Just as we are free to express ourselves and our religion, they also have those same rights.

 

[prisonchaplain]

7 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Well, in all fairness—he was paying me . . . (most of the time!)

You deserve your pay, and I'm guessing there might be some risk of other potential clients being off-put by a lawyer who sided with a transgender client over a sister-in-good-standing. So, take your props.