3rd hour meeting on fostering love with members of the LGBTQ community

[Dream Weaver]

On 2/2/2018 at 4:13 PM, NeuroTypical said:

Yep - me too.  One of the speakers was a lady "happily married" to her wife.  Talking in our church, to us, during services, with our microphone. 

I don't think gayness is contagious, you can't catch anything from the microphone.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Dream Weaver

[Dream Weaver]

5 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Changed, when was the last time you asked your ward council to hold a pedophilia outreach event?

You can't compare homosexuality to pedophilia, one is with consenting adults, the other isn't, pedophilia tries to trick/bribe kids into their life then pounce...not the same thing. 

[Jane_Doe]

19 minutes ago, Dream Weaver said:

You can't compare homosexuality to pedophilia, one is with consenting adults, the other isn't, pedophilia tries to trick/bribe kids into their life then pounce...not the same thing. 

I very much agree, though sin is sin, and God looks at both with no degree of allowance (same with all other sins).  

[Dream Weaver]

54 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

I very much agree, though sin is sin, and God looks at both with no degree of allowance (same with all other sins).  

I agree, though can't get my head around it, doesn't make sense, but I guess not everything has to make sense.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, changed said:

 

Those who are LGBT - they are commanded to both have a family/love/get married, and they are also commanded not to be gay... they are given something impossible.  .. so which law is better to obey?  

  

It's a huge, huge burden for homosexuals to carry. It just breaks my heart. I'm not sure how a heterosexual marriage could work if one or both partners are gay. It's not fair to anyone. 

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, changed said:

Eden was not fair either... do we condemn Eve?

?

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, changed said:

Some say the solution is celibacy - just wait until everyone is beyond the veil, and then everyone will be fixed, and everyone can be in perfect marriages etc. etc.  but then there are things we have to learn in this life - that transgression in Eden was necessary for our progression. 

Experiencing sin is necessary for our progression, or none of us would be going through this life, agree?

My solution is for the church to approve off gay marriage, which regardless of what anyone says I think is just a matter of time. I've been in favor of that since the early 2000's. I'm optimistic that things will change. However right now, I accept that I'm in the minority and I'm fine with that. 

I don't think you really understand my perspective. You seem to be arguing with me over something that I don't agree with in the first place. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by MormonGator

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, changed said:

I think part of the test is seeing how we handle contradictions - do we follow imperfect leaders, or do we follow what is good?  

Personally, I do not worship a church, my loyalties lie with what is good and uplifting and loving and kind.  

My loyalties rely on Christ. If the leaders of His church say marriage is between a man and woman at this time, fine. But I can still hope and pray for a change. 

[Grunt]

9 minutes ago, changed said:

Some say the solution is celibacy - just wait until everyone is beyond the veil, and then everyone will be fixed, and everyone can be in perfect marriages etc. etc.  but then there are things we have to learn in this life - that transgression in Eden was necessary for our progression. 

Experiencing sin is necessary for our progression, or none of us would be going through this life, agree?

Everyone sins... if someone has tattoos, if they smoke, or drink, or ________ do we tell them not to come to church? that their kids cannot be baptized?  

I don't believe experiencing sin is at ALL necessary for progression.  I think it is just the opposite.  I believe resisting sin is necessary for our progression.  Otherwise, we'd be looking at the commandments as a 'to do' list.

[Grunt]

3 minutes ago, changed said:

I think part of the test is seeing how we handle contradictions - do we follow imperfect leaders, or do we follow what is good?  

Personally, I do not worship a church, my loyalties lie with what is good and uplifting and loving and kind.  

God chose these imperfect leaders.  He would not let them lead the church astray.  I think praying for the reversal of what is sin and thinking sin is the right thing to support is walking in dangerous territory.

[Grunt]

4 minutes ago, changed said:

My loyalties rely on Christ too .... not so sure about g-d or the church, but Jesus - he is merciful, understands our pain, eats with sinners - helps everyone to be better without making them feel bad, by just loving them.  If that is who Jesus is, then that is someone I can follow.

Your comments ring blasphemous to me.

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Dream Weaver said:

You can't compare homosexuality to pedophilia, one is with consenting adults, the other isn't, pedophilia tries to trick/bribe kids into their life then pounce...not the same thing. 

Pedophilia is merely sexual attraction to children. There is no sin in this. It is only the sexual activity that is offensive.

Isn't that the homosexual line? Why would it not apply equally to pedophiles?

[mirkwood]

49 minutes ago, changed said:

A  

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

  

 

If you have been through the temple you understand the difference between this specific act (transgression) and sin.  It is clearly delineated.  He did not command the impossible.

[Just_A_Guy]

2 hours ago, Dream Weaver said:

You can't compare homosexuality to pedophilia, one is with consenting adults, the other isn't, pedophilia tries to trick/bribe kids into their life then pounce...not the same thing. 

Why do you assume that *all* pedophiles are in perpetual groom-my-next-victim mode?

I have met many who are resisting their urges; and yes—its a hard, lonely road.  Why must we, as Mormons, embrace one subset of strugglers while shunning another—especially when it has been suggested here that our shunning any set of sinners is tantamount to pride and may well make us worse than the people we are shunning?

1 hour ago, changed said:

Some say the solution is celibacy - just wait until everyone is beyond the veil, and then everyone will be fixed, and everyone can be in perfect marriages etc. etc.  but then there are things we have to learn in this life - that transgression in Eden was necessary for our progression. 

Experiencing sin is necessary for our progression, or none of us would be going through this life, agree?

Everyone sins... if someone has tattoos, if they smoke, or drink, or ________ do we tell them not to come to church? that their kids cannot be baptized?  

@changed, THIS is why dialogue—especially in a worship setting— is problematic:  because many gay rights advocates aren’t forthright about the purpose of such dialogue.  

Earlier in this thread you were taking pains to stress that we, as orthodox Mormons, didn’t need to “condone” such behavior.  Now, you’re hinting that gay sex may not just be OK, but (at least, for homosexuals) necessary for eternal progression.

Why should we indulge your plea to let the camel’s nose—and just the nose, honest!—into the tent; when it’s patently obvious that your long term game plan is to bring in the whole camel? 

@Dream Weaver, at least, understands that dialogue is a preliminary to acceptance; which is why (s)he recoiled at my proposition of LDS congregations dialoguing with those who suffer from pedophilia in spite of having earlier pontificated about how there's no harm in giving anyone a microphone.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[lostinwater]

32 minutes ago, Grunt said:

37 minutes ago, changed said:

My loyalties rely on Christ too .... not so sure about g-d or the church, but Jesus - he is merciful, understands our pain, eats with sinners - helps everyone to be better without making them feel bad, by just loving them.  If that is who Jesus is, then that is someone I can follow.

 

i understand where @changed is coming from.  i'm pretty much there myself.  God, as so many people portray Him, is not someone i'd enjoy going on a drive through the mountains with.  i don't ever want to become so unknowable and immense and full of justice as many people say God is.  

Jesus thought He was a pretty stand up Guy though, so i ask for forgiveness for being afraid of Him, and hope He understands.  i tend to think most people mold God into an emblem of indignation and fear to get others to do what they feel is necessary - with good intentions, but generally disastrous results (my opinion).

[anatess2]

52 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

i understand where @changed is coming from.  i'm pretty much there myself.  God, as so many people portray Him, is not someone i'd enjoy going on a drive through the mountains with.  i don't ever want to become so unknowable and immense and full of justice as many people say God is.  

Jesus thought He was a pretty stand up Guy though, so i ask for forgiveness for being afraid of Him, and hope He understands.  i tend to think most people mold God into an emblem of indignation and fear to get others to do what they feel is necessary - with good intentions, but generally disastrous results (my opinion).

 

I'm confused.  This is the impression you got of Heavenly Father from scriptures and Church teachings?  Are you and @changed not LDS?

Edited February 5, 2018 by anatess2

[Dream Weaver]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Why do you assume that *all* pedophiles are in perpetual groom-my-next-victim mode?

I have met many who are resisting their urges; and yes—its a hard, lonely road.  Why must we, as Mormons, embrace one subset of strugglers while shunning another—especially when it has been suggested here that our shunning any set of sinners is tantamount to pride and may well make us worse than the people we are shunning?

 

True I am assuming that, because how else can they get to them, children (let's say 14 and under) aren't really thinking about sex or "relationships", it is just not in their head yet, yes there may be infatuations, maybe crushes, but even then they are to young to handle any kind of romantic relationship, and if not romantic, then just a sexual relationship.....no way, way to young, immature, and even if they think they can handle it, they can't, and an older person should know this, and know better, thus crossing the line.  Can't be consensual.

I think this is why pedophiles are very dangerous, and in a completely different category than homosexuality.  Great if they are not acting on it, but still scary, gotta protect the kids, because lines can become blurry then who knows if they can't resist temptation, if we don't protect the children??

Now I believe gays can be consensual and on the same page mentally and make informed decisions based on honesty and real attraction between 2 adults, I don't think they are predators, but I suppose there is always exceptions.  I am completely taking my own orientation and religion out of these comments.

 

[NightSG]

1 hour ago, lostinwater said:

God, as so many people portray Him, is not someone i'd enjoy going on a drive through the mountains with.

Hmmm...well, His car wouldn't break down, and if He ran off the road, He'd just move the road to where He's going.

So, better than some of my relatives, at least.

[Anddenex]

7 hours ago, NightSG said:

Are you sure?   I know Texas has the "declaration of informal marriage" that's filed the same way as a marriage license would be, (and effectively meaningless; the marriage is presumed effective, and therefore legal, from whatever time you represent yourself to others as married, so the declaration just gets it on file with the state) but I've dealt with folks from other states where the common law marriage was recognized, and couldn't actually be formalized without dissolving it first.  That's a bit of a problem since the process usually involves separating for some period and/or a formal divorce process: if the couple has kids, that's a big mess for everybody just to satisfy the Church's paperwork requirements.

I can speak for the areas of Texas I served my mission in. Legal papers had to be received from the state specifying that couples relationship did in fact honor a common law marriage. Without papers, legal docs, there is nothing to separate a cohabitating common law in contrast to cohabitating.

[Jane_Doe]

3 hours ago, Dream Weaver said:

I agree, though can't get my head around it, doesn't make sense, but I guess not everything has to make sense.

? Care to elaborate?

[Anddenex]

3 hours ago, changed said:

Those who are LGBT - they are commanded to both have a family/love/get married, and they are also commanded not to be gay... they are given something impossible.  .. so which law is better to obey?

This is easily seen as a false statement. They are not given anything impossible, so both commandments are important to obey. There isn't a "better to obey" in this scenario, and is deception to believe otherwise. They are commanded to have a family -- which they can. They are commanded to be like God -- who is not gay -- which is possible also. Nothing here is impossible, but a true deception from the adversary.

As you have been quoting scripture I would suggest feasting on this scripture, "For with God nothing shall be impossible," (emphasis added) even homosexual feelings and tendencies. God has not given any commandment save it be that the weakest among us can keep, if we LOVE God more than we LOVE ourselves and our neighbors.

[Anddenex]

3 hours ago, changed said:

Experiencing sin is necessary for our progression, or none of us would be going through this life, agree?

How you are defining "experiencing" is important here. If you are describing "experiencing" as "choosing" to sin is necessary for our progression this is false. The "knowledge" of good and evil is necessary for our progression. We do not have to "experience" -- choose to -- sin ourselves to progress. If so, how in the world did Christ survive without sinning -- he was perfect -- without sin -- without blemish.

We are able to learn through personal experience and observation. We only need the knowledge of sin and its opposite to progress. If we choose to sin, fortunately God provided a Savior.

3 hours ago, changed said:

Helps everyone to be better without making them feel bad, by just loving them.  If that is who Jesus is, then that is someone I can follow.

It is truly amazing to me the "conditions" -- stipulations -- God's children put upon Him. I wonder if the Pharisees felt bad when Christ called them hypocrites (you know because he only makes people feel good by just loving them)? I wonder how Satan feels when Jesus states he is a liar and murderer from the beginning? I assume then you must feel Nephi wasn't a very good person either when he likened his brothers (Laman and Lemuel) unto the murderers in Jerusalem who also tried to kill his father.

The notion of making someone "feel bad" when they are not in the right doesn't negate who God is. Making up conditions and stipulations as to who God is isn't going to allow you to know who God really is (light and truth). My only care is to know who God really is, and when I find out more, I continue to worship and grow to become more like him. If I put a stipulation on who God is, and if he doesn't conform to my limited knowledge, I have already begun to damn myself.

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Dream Weaver said:

children (let's say 14 and under) aren't really thinking about sex or "relationships", it is just not in their head yet

I was under 14 once, and I can tell you from personal experience that prepubescent children most certainly do think about sex, and from very young ages (far younger than 14, or 10, or 8, or 6). They may not understand it well, but yes, they think about it. Maybe you didn't, but don't generalize your own experiences onto everyone else.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Vort

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Dream Weaver said:

I think this is why pedophiles are very dangerous, and in a completely different category than homosexuality.  Great if they are not acting on it, but still scary, gotta protect the kids, because lines can become blurry then who knows if they can't resist temptation, if we don't protect the children??

So then, all the posturing about "acceptance" and "urges aren't sinful" are simply earwash to get homosexuality accepted. You're okay with homosexuality, so you think people should not be judgmental toward those with same-sex attraction. But you are not okay with pedophilia, so you think people should be judgmental toward those with sexual attraction to children.

In the vernacular, this is known as "shameless hypocrisy".

[Just_A_Guy]

2 hours ago, Dream Weaver said:

I think this is why pedophiles are very dangerous, and in a completely different category than homosexuality.  Great if they are not acting on it, but still scary, gotta protect the kids, because lines can become blurry then who knows if they can't resist temptation, if we don't protect the children??

Now I believe gays can be consensual and on the same page mentally and make informed decisions based on honesty and real attraction between 2 adults, I don't think they are predators, but I suppose there is always exceptions.  I am completely taking my own orientation and religion out of these comments.

 

Fair points, but none of which really explains why LDS adults shouldn’t make an especially effort to minister to/understand these folks in a third-hour, adults-only meeting. 

And, going back to the homosexuality issue:  what if I told you that Mormonism’s gay-youth-suicide problem was statistically insignificant until about ten years ago, which coincides with the time that gay rights advocates became bold enough to start telling gay LDS kids that their lives would never be worth living if they weren’t getting “sexually fulfilled”?

Edited February 5, 2018 by Just_A_Guy