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7 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

I myself have had what I believe to be an answer from the Holy Ghost about the BoM, but as powerful as I found that experience, that is all it is - my private belief - not proof the LDS church is the only true and living church on the face of the earth.

Forgive me in advance if someone has already brought this up, however, when I read this, the following is how I interpret it:  "God gave me a personalized answer that the Book of Mormon is true, but I want/need proof."  It's going to be extremely difficult to not sound snarky here, so once again, please forgive me in advance if that's how this comes across, but:

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"A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it. . ."  (Matt 16:4)

"And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign?"  (Mark 8:12)

From what you wrote, it sounds to me like you have received a witness from God.  Now what?

Quote

Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

(Alma 32: 28-29) emphasis added

If you know the book of Mormon is true by the power of the Holy Ghost, that is already more than about 99.8% of the population of the entire world.  How cool is that!  If you don't know by His power, then get crackin' on them prayers!

Ultimately, we all want proof, none of us have any, and somehow we are still here convinced we don't have to have it.  Likewise, most of the Christian world, with at least the commonality that we put our faith in Christ.

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6 minutes ago, person0 said:

Forgive me in advance if someone has already brought this up, however, when I read this, the following is how I interpret it:  "God gave me a personalized answer that the Book of Mormon is true, but I want/need proof."  It's going to be extremely difficult to not sound snarky here, so once again, please forgive me in advance if that's how this comes across, but:

From what you wrote, it sounds to me like you have received a witness from God.  Now what?

If you know the book of Mormon is true by the power of the Holy Ghost, that is already more than about 99.8% of the population of the entire world.  How cool is that!  If you don't know by His power, then get crackin' on them prayers!

Ultimately, we all want proof, none of us have any, and somehow we are still here convinced we don't have to have it.  Likewise, most of the Christian world, with at least the commonality that we put our faith in Christ.

You don't sound snarky, and thank you you're right, and I am praying like a mad woman to know the LDS church holds the authority of God and Jesus on earth, hopefully the spirit comes through for me again

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13 minutes ago, person0 said:

Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

(Alma 32: 28-29) emphasis added

Thanks for that scripture, it jumped off the computer screen at me (literal tears)! And it instantly changed my perspective, so honestly thank you.

I'm going to live as if I already know its all true, the Book of Abraham, todays prophet, the LDS church, the Word of Wisdom, all of it.  If I do that with a sincere heart and pray every day about it then hopefully the holy spirit will answer me again (and hopefully within a year and 6 months witness to my husband too!).

But I think I'm always going to be a church history buff, hopefully it will help me to help investigators with hard questions. 

Thanks @person0 God must have given you that scripture for me to read, it was perfect

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2 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

hopefully the spirit comes through for me again

2 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

If I do that with a sincere heart and pray every day about it then hopefully the holy spirit will answer me again

In regard to the sincere desire you have to know if the Church is true, and to receive a witness that it is true by the power of the Holy Ghost, I would like to share about how I received my witness, with hope that it may perhaps be of some additional benefit to you.

Throughout my life I have always believed the Church to be true, and have had many spiritual experiences that have confirmed this.  However, nearly half-way through my mission I realized that I was asking people to read the Book of Mormon and pray to ask if it was true, and I was promising them they would receive and answer, although I had actually never received such an answer while specifically in the act of praying to know that the Book of Mormon was true.

Many times I had felt the spirit while reading.  I had powerful experiences at various youth conferences, and other Church and religious activities.  However strong all these may have been, I remained bewildered that I still hadn't received an answer specifically while praying.  Was I doing it wrong?  I mean, I was on my knees sincerely and at times literally saying, "Heavenly Father, is the Book of Mormon true?" . . . Nothing.  I kept going to teach people the gospel, still believing in my heart it is true, but not receiving what I think I need; that specific answer, during that specific prayer.

One Saturday evening, I was out on the couch reading scriptures and winding down.  The following day was Fast Sunday, so before going to bed I started my fast with a prayer.  There was nothing noteworthy about the prayer itself. I can't even remember what I said, or what I was fasting for, but I remember that I felt the Spirit that evening, and could recognize it while kneeling there at the conclusion of my prayer.

As I knelt over the couch, resting on my elbows and about to get up, I felt a very distinct impression.  The impression was to pray.  "Pray?"  I thought, "Why?  I just finished praying."  Then the impression came again, and with more.  It said, "Pray, and ask if the Book of Mormon is true!"  I was immediately struck with a knowledge of what the Lord wanted me to do in that moment, and why.  I already had the Spirit with me, and I knew it, and could clearly recognize it.  If I were to do something that would make the Spirit leave, I could recognize that as well.  So, If I were to speak to Heavenly Father in prayer and ask Him if the Book of Mormon is true, and to share with Him that I believed it to be true, and if the Spirit were to remain with me, and not leave, then I would have my answer that I sought from prayer, because the Spirit would be there testifying and allowing me to proceed forward with the witness in my heart that it is true!  So, that's what I did!

I was already kneeling, so I just started praying again.  I told Heavenly Father that I had read the Book of Mormon and believed it to be true.  I asked Him to continue to bless me with the peace of the Spirit to remain with me as a witness that it is true.  And I testify to you that the Holy Spirit remained with me at that time and I knew and know that the Book of Mormon is true.  In the Lord's wisdom, I did not stop there.  I continued praying and asked in like manner if Thomas S. Monson was a true prophet.  The Spirit remained.  I asked if Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and if the things he claimed to do and to be true were actually true.  The Spirit remained.  I asked if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the Lord's only true and living Church on the earth.  The Spirit remained.  I asked if the Bible is true as far as it is translated correctly.  I asked if the message of the Restored Gospel was true as I was taught and was teaching it.  I just kept asking things that I needed and wanted at that time to know to be true, and each and every time I continued to feel the comforting influence of the Spirit, the peace that comes only from the Lord, remain with me and confirm to me that it is all true.

This is how I know and will testify that the Church is true.

That experience has since changed my life, understanding, and ability to teach the gospel and how to recognize and receive answers from the Spirit.   In my personal studies following this spiritual witness, I was able to pinpoint a few key factors relating to how I was able to be prepared to receive it.

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3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

(Moroni 10:3-5) emphasis added

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

(John 14:26-27)

In the first passage, Moroni encourages us to read, to ponder, and to remember the mercies of the Lord.  From John we learn that the Spirit is the one who can enable us to remember the things of the Lord.  Hence, as we sincerely read and ponder, the Spirit aids us in the task of remembering.  The Spirit is also the teacher.  He helps us remember, but also gives us new knowledge from God.  When we experience His comfort we can choose to receive Him into our hearts, and then at that moment we are ready to ask in faith.  When we ask God in faith seeking the kind of answers we must attain through faith, He does not respond with statistics, artifacts, historical data, or any other form of physical or worldly evidence, because he does not give as the world gives.  Instead, he leaves us with peace.

That night, when I sought to confirm the truth of the restored gospel, I had prepared myself to receive an answer in a way I had not previously known.  When we invite the Spirit to be with us before we pray, we will be more capable to receive and recognize answers while we are praying.

Edited by person0
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1 hour ago, person0 said:

In regard to the sincere desire you have to know if the Church is true, and to receive a witness that it is true by the power of the Holy Ghost, I would like to share about how I received my witness, with hope that it may perhaps be of some additional benefit to you.

Throughout my life I have always believed the Church to be true, and have had many spiritual experiences that have confirmed this.  However, nearly half-way through my mission I realized that I was asking people to read the Book of Mormon and pray to ask if it was true, and I was promising them they would receive and answer, although I had actually never received such an answer while specifically in the act of praying to know that the Book of Mormon was true.

Many times I had felt the spirit while reading.  I had powerful experiences at various youth conferences, and other Church and religious activities.  However strong all these may have been, I remained bewildered that I still hadn't received an answer specifically while praying.  Was I doing it wrong?  I mean, I was on my knees sincerely and at times literally saying, "Heavenly Father, is the Book of Mormon true?" . . . Nothing.  I kept going to teach people the gospel, still believing in my heart it is true, but not receiving what I think I need; that specific answer, during that specific prayer.

One Saturday evening, I was out on the couch reading scriptures and winding down.  The following day was Fast Sunday, so before going to bed I started my fast with a prayer.  There was nothing noteworthy about the prayer itself. I can't even remember what I said, or what I was fasting for, but I remember that I felt the Spirit that evening, and could recognize it while kneeling there at the conclusion of my prayer.

As I knelt over the couch, resting on my elbows and about to get up, I felt a very distinct impression.  The impression was to pray.  "Pray?"  I thought, "Why?  I just finished praying."  Then the impression came again, and with more.  It said, "Pray, and ask if the Book of Mormon is true!"  I was immediately struck with a knowledge of what the Lord wanted me to do in that moment, and why.  I already had the Spirit with me, and I knew it, and could clearly recognize it.  If I were to do something that would make the Spirit leave, I could recognize that as well.  So, If I were to speak to Heavenly Father in prayer and ask Him if the Book of Mormon is true, and to share with Him that I believed it to be true, and if the Spirit were to remain with me, and not leave, then I would have my answer that I sought from prayer, because the Spirit would be there testifying and allowing me to proceed forward with the witness in my heart that it is true!  So, that's what I did!

I was already kneeling, so I just started praying again.  I told Heavenly Father that I had read the Book of Mormon and believed it to be true.  I asked Him to continue to bless me with the peace of the Spirit to remain with me as a witness that it is true.  And I testify to you that the Holy Spirit remained with me at that time and I knew and know that the Book of Mormon is true.  In the Lord's wisdom, I did not stop there.  I continued praying and asked in like manner if Thomas S. Monson was a true prophet.  The Spirit remained.  I asked if Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and if the things he claimed to do and to be true were actually true.  The Spirit remained.  I asked if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the Lord's only true and living Church on the earth.  The Spirit remained.  I asked if the Bible is true as far as it is translated correctly.  I asked if the message of the Restored Gospel was true as I was taught and was teaching it.  I just kept asking things that I needed and wanted at that time to know to be true, and each and every time I continued to feel the comforting influence of the Spirit, the peace that comes only from the Lord, remain with me and confirm to me that it is all true.

This is how I know and will testify that the Church is true.

That experience has since changed my life, understanding, and ability to teach the gospel and how to recognize and receive answers from the Spirit.   In my personal studies following this spiritual witness, I was able to pinpoint a few key factors relating to how I was able to be prepared to receive it.

In the first passage, Moroni encourages us to read, to ponder, and to remember the mercies of the Lord.  From John we learn that the Spirit is the one who can enable us to remember the things of the Lord.  Hence, as we sincerely read and ponder, the Spirit aids us in the task of remembering.  The Spirit is also the teacher.  He helps us remember, but also gives us new knowledge from God.  When we experience His comfort we can choose to receive Him into our hearts, and then at that moment we are ready to ask in faith.  When we ask God in faith seeking the kind of answers we must attain through faith, He does not respond with statistics, artifacts, historical data, or any other form of physical or worldly evidence, because he does not give as the world gives.  Instead, he leaves us with peace.

That night, when I sought to confirm the truth of the restored gospel, I had prepared myself to receive an answer in a way I had not previously known.  When we invite the Spirit to be with us before we pray, we will be more capable to receive and recognize answers while we are praying.

This is so beautiful and so personal, thank you for sharing.

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On 2/9/2018 at 6:01 PM, Blossom76 said:

if you think about it from the investigators point of view - highly insulting claims

13 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

when they are baptised, then they are told that doesn't count as a valid baptism, it is insulting.

12 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

its like being told 'you don't know jesus' when we've been following his teachings our whole lives

@Blossom76, as cool as a cucumber and without any desire of contention, at all, let me respond.

I regret that you have felt this way since the very beginning of your studies. No one I know enjoys feeling like they have been insulted. Rather than focus on any issues/concerns that either of us have, I will say that I'm sorry you started your investigative path from a position of feeling insulted. I hope that at no point, a missionary or member has actually verbalized anything remotely like "you don't know Jesus". If they have, that is painfully regretful. If they have not, I hope you may be able to remove that mental hurdle, and perhaps acknowledge that it was a feeling you chose, rather allowed yourself to construct versus what was actually being taught or said. Sound fair enough??

I would suggest, that if we can peel away any layer of resentment that stemmed from being insulted, perhaps a more harmonious voyage lay ahead. A voyage free from the wall of insult, will in fact allow the Spirit to more freely touch you. As the Spirit touches your heart more frequently, I promise you that those concerns which feel like insurmountable doctrinal hurdles now, will simply become less and less important to you. While the points may still exist, the difference is they will no longer be obstacles to you. The Spirit will confirm to you that you are on the correct path despite any hesitations.

As a Church, we should never be of the position that investigators, "don't know Jesus". I have enjoyed this talk by our prior prophet, President Gordon B. Hinkley, for many years. (video)

Quote

God be thanked for His marvelous bestowal of testimony, authority, and doctrine associated with this, the restored Church of Jesus Christ.

This must be our great and singular message to the world. We do not offer it with boasting. We testify in humility but with gravity and absolute sincerity. We invite all, the whole earth, to listen to this account and take measure of its truth. God bless us as those who believe in His divine manifestations and help us to extend knowledge of these great and marvelous occurrences to all who will listen. To @Blossom76 we say in a spirit of love, bring with you all that you have of good and truth which you have received from whatever source, and come and let us see if we may add to it.

I would like to apologize for any of my comments that came off insulting. Often insult begets insult. I will admit that I have been insulted by some of your posts too, a feeling that I allowed myself to feel, and shouldn't have. I will take a clean slate approach moving forward, I hope you will do the same. Regards - Needle

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Guest LiterateParakeet
On 2/9/2018 at 4:36 PM, Blossom76 said:

Not just here, at church as well, plus not everyone on this site says what they think in the forums, I have had a lot of private messages from many many many members on this site (yes faithful LDS members) agreeing that they see the same things as I do and have the same concerns but are too afraid to say it to anyone because they fear the consequences, some members have even told me that they are too afraid to even tell their wife/husband how they really feel.

Sadly, I have to agree.  I have questions I don't share here for just these reasons.   Fortunately, I can talk to my husband, but I have friends who can't.  

Maybe this happens in other churches too, I don't have enough experience with them to say.  @prisonchaplain  What do you think?  Is this a problem other faiths struggle with as well?  

@Suzie Great to see you again! 

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Guest LiterateParakeet
7 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

Thanks for that scripture, it jumped off the computer screen at me (literal tears)! And it instantly changed my perspective, so honestly thank you.

I'm going to live as if I already know its all true, the Book of Abraham, todays prophet, the LDS church, the Word of Wisdom, all of it.  If I do that with a sincere heart and pray every day about it then hopefully the holy spirit will answer me again (and hopefully within a year and 6 months witness to my husband too!).

But I think I'm always going to be a church history buff, hopefully it will help me to help investigators with hard questions. 

Thanks @person0 God must have given you that scripture for me to read, it was perfect

I think that is a wonderful idea.  When I went through my trial of faith, I did much the same and it was very helpful.   I had to go all the way back to the Savior.  I said to myself, "Wouldn't it be wonderful if it is true, that there is a God, and He sent His son to die for us. That's really beautiful and I want it to be true.  Nothing bad will happen if I act as if it is true for awhile and see if that seed will grow."  

Mine wasn't actually a seed, but a plant that was dying, but the point is, I was able to revive it....my plant/testimony is not thriving.  So, I highly recommend this strategy. 

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7 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

I'm going to live as if I already know its all true, the Book of Abraham, todays prophet, the LDS church, the Word of Wisdom, all of it.  If I do that with a sincere heart and pray every day about it then hopefully the holy spirit will answer me again (and hopefully within a year and 6 months witness to my husband too!).

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John 7:17  If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

:)

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1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Sadly, I have to agree.  I have questions I don't share here for just these reasons.   Fortunately, I can talk to my husband, but I have friends who can't.  

Maybe this happens in other churches too, I don't have enough experience with them to say.  @prisonchaplain  What do you think?  Is this a problem other faiths struggle with as well?  

@Suzie Great to see you again! 

There may be those who do not share their inner doubts. However, in traditional Christian churches, including Catholic, I would guess that the majority are young people, who just as uncertain about themselves as they are the church. Adults seem quite willing to approach even pastors, and say that they do not agree with certain things--even matters that are core doctrine. Sometimes the statements are not even questions, not even the, "Help me understand." In Protestantism, if the doubts become too much, and the matters of concern are church or denomination-specific, there's always the next church down the road. Even in Catholicism the troubled soul may find that a different parish will have a priest and an approach that works better for them.

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It seems to me that there’s a difference between “doubt” and “disbelief”.  As Mormons a lot of us could probably improve on distinguishing between the two; both in the way we identify and express our own doubts, and in the way we analyze the concerns of other Mormons.  Because while doubt is certainly fine, there is a threat to a faith community when outright disbelief is allowed to spread uncountered.  Mormonism seems especially attenuated to that threat; which is why to some degree as a Mormon *what* you say is often less important than *how* you say it.  “I can’t believe that . . .” or “I refuse to accept that . . .” something very different than “I’m having trouble with the idea that . . .” or “I’m struggling to accept this . . .”

@prisonchaplain, are you familiar with Peter Enns’ “The Sin of Certainty”?

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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Guest LiterateParakeet
7 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

It seems to me that there’s a difference between “doubt” and “disbelief”.  As Mormons a lot of us could probably improve on distinguishing between the two; both in the way we identify and express our own doubts, and in the way we analyze the concerns of other Mormons.  Because while doubt is certainly fine, there is a threat to a faith community when outright disbelief is allowed to spread uncountered.  Mormonism seems especially attenuated to that threat; which is why to some degree as a Mormon *what* you say is often less important than *how*’you say it.

I would agree with that based on my experiences. I think there is another category we could add though. My current questions are not about doubt or disbelief, they're simply things I would like to explore. Unfortunately though, those kinds of questions are also misinterpreted. 

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52 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

@prisonchaplain. Thanks, thats helpful.  There was a time I thought about the church down the road.  :)

if you were in Utah, the church down the road is more likely than not to be another LDS chapel :)

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7 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

@Blossom76, as cool as a cucumber and without any desire of contention, at all, let me respond.

I regret that you have felt this way since the very beginning of your studies. No one I know enjoys feeling like they have been insulted. Rather than focus on any issues/concerns that either of us have, I will say that I'm sorry you started your investigative path from a position of feeling insulted. I hope that at no point, a missionary or member has actually verbalized anything remotely like "you don't know Jesus". If they have, that is painfully regretful. If they have not, I hope you may be able to remove that mental hurdle, and perhaps acknowledge that it was a feeling you chose, rather allowed yourself to construct versus what was actually being taught or said. Sound fair enough??

I would suggest, that if we can peel away any layer of resentment that stemmed from being insulted, perhaps a more harmonious voyage lay ahead. A voyage free from the wall of insult, will in fact allow the Spirit to more freely touch you. As the Spirit touches your heart more frequently, I promise you that those concerns which feel like insurmountable doctrinal hurdles now, will simply become less and less important to you. While the points may still exist, the difference is they will no longer be obstacles to you. The Spirit will confirm to you that you are on the correct path despite any hesitations.

As a Church, we should never be of the position that investigators, "don't know Jesus". I have enjoyed this talk by our prior prophet, President Gordon B. Hinkley, for many years. (video)

I would like to apologize for any of my comments that came off insulting. Often insult begets insult. I will admit that I have been insulted by some of your posts too, a feeling that I allowed myself to feel, and shouldn't have. I will take a clean slate approach moving forward, I hope you will do the same. Regards - Needle

Accepted and I apologise for any comments I made to you that offended you, clean slate it is!

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9 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

It seems to me that there’s a difference between “doubt” and “disbelief”.  As Mormons a lot of us could probably improve on distinguishing between the two; both in the way we identify and express our own doubts, and in the way we analyze the concerns of other Mormons.  Because while doubt is certainly fine, there is a threat to a faith community when outright disbelief is allowed to spread uncountered.  Mormonism seems especially attenuated to that threat; which is why to some degree as a Mormon *what* you say is often less important than *how* you say it.  “I can’t believe that . . .” or “I refuse to accept that . . .” something very different than “I’m having trouble with the idea that . . .” or “I’m struggling to accept this . . .”

@prisonchaplain, are you familiar with Peter Enns’ “The Sin of Certainty”?

On the first paragraph, I wonder if it would help if listeners would adopt filters. When someone in church says, "I can't believe" or "That's all but impossible," I should ask myself if s/he is doubting or disbelieving. Without context, the latter seems obvious. However, some people just talk that way--especially if they are frustrated, or perhaps nerve-wracked by their own struggling. So, they sound obstinate and quite certain of their doubts. In reality, they may simply be struggling. So, if we know the person speaking, it might do us well to give lots of latitude to voice their concerns/doubts/seeming-disbeliefs. I wonder how often, if we just let them talk, they might come right back to faith talk all on their own. The "all but impossible," becomes, "Well, really, only God knows, and I have to trust Him."

On the question about Peter Enns, the name sounded familiar, but I had not heard of the book. I did a quick search, and found that Enns is controversial on other matters. He seems to believe that evolution is all but certain, and argues that neither creation nor Adam are meant to be taken literally and historically. My own view is that the Bible is mostly literal and historical, and saying a passages is allegorical generally requires a strong argument.

Nevertheless, his belief that we should move beyond stating doctrine as fact, and really cultivate our and correlate our intellectual and spiritual/emotional understandings, has merit.

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12 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

I would suggest, that if we can peel away any layer of resentment that stemmed from being insulted, perhaps a more harmonious voyage lay ahead. A voyage free from the wall of insult, will in fact allow the Spirit to more freely touch you. As the Spirit touches your heart more frequently, I promise you that those concerns which feel like insurmountable doctrinal hurdles now, will simply become less and less important to you. While the points may still exist, the difference is they will no longer be obstacles to you. The Spirit will confirm to you that you are on the correct path despite any hesitations.
 

3

For what it's worth, I have a very strong testimony of this as I've written before.

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On 08/02/2018 at 9:39 PM, Blossom76 said:

As a few of you know I"m super into church history, I've been reading the Jospeh Smith Papers because a lot of members told me to trust them over the 'History of the Church Books' and I've already  found something interesting!

This is written in 1843 and it clearly says the church does condone polygamy

as pertaining to the Law of the priesthood if any man espouse a virgin, & desire to espouse another and the first give her [2 words illegible] if he [3 words illegible] & they are virgins, & have vowed to no other man, then is he justified, he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him for he Cannot Commit adultery with that, that belongeth unto him & to none else & if he have ten virgins given <unto> him by thee this Law, he Cannot Commit adultery for they belong to him, & they are given unto him therefore, <is he justified> 

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revelation-12-july-1843-dc-132/8

This was written in 1844, it clearly says the church is against polygamy 

4 All legal contracts of marriage made before a person is baptised into this church, should be held sacred and fulfiled. Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death when either is at liberty to marry again.

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/doctrine-and-covenants-1844/441 

But the church was practicing polygamy then, from 1831 until 1890ish, so that's not exactly honest.  This leads me back to my previous problem I had with "History of the Church' being I can't trust what the church writes about its own history.

Has anyone else looked at this before?

 

On 06/02/2018 at 2:04 PM, askandanswer said:

I don't think people should have too much of a problem if the Prophet announces next Thursday that gay marriages can be solemnized in the Temple, and then on Friday he says that they can't and then on Saturday he says that they can. We should continue to sustain him and act as if he is speaking for God. If he is not speaking for God then it's God's problem and He will deal with it. If he is speaking for God, we better get with the program rather than leave or resign.

@Blossom76 I don't think people should have too much of a problem if a counsellor to the Prophet says in 1831 that polygamy is bad, and then the Prophet announces in 1843 that polygamy is good. We should continue to sustain him and act as if he is speaking for God. If he is not speaking for God, then its God's problem and He will deal with it. If he is speaking for God, we better get with the program.

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On 2/10/2018 at 4:54 PM, Blossom76 said:

Perhaps, but to get to that point one has to accept that the LDS church does in fact speak for God on earth and no other church does. LDS represent 1.6% of the 70% of christians just in the USA.  Wether you like it or not, you are in a minority denomination of Christianity that tells all other denominations that they are wrong and have no authority.  If the LDS church is right, then that's great, but people are going to be naturally defensive over such a claim and some of them (like me) are going to really need to prove to themselves that this is in fact Gods rule.

It's a bit of a paradox. The church is a tiny minority, and yet the LDS Gospel is often described as one that preaches a universal salvation because we believe in degrees of heaven, and that you can find the gospel in the next life if the opportunity isn't available in this life.  The gate is strait and narrow, and few will find it (Matt 7:13) and yet, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ (Romans 14:11, Phil 2:10)

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Hi @Blossom76

Congratulations on having made a huge step towards what I think of as your second major breakthrough, the first being the gaining of a testimony of the Book of Mormon. I congratulate you on the great efforts you are making to find the truth and your strong and persistent desire in the face of difficulties, misunderstanding and frustration. Well done and please keep it up! I hope I’m not sounding condescending, I mean this sincerely, and with respect.

I think its great that you are continuing to study a lot and seeking to expand your testimony, but I don’t think you should be seeking for a testimony of the truthfulness of the History of the Church. (And by “testimony” I mean a spiritual confirmation of a truth. I think you already have a testimony of the Book of Mormon). I don’t think God has promised to give anyone a testimony of the History of the Church although I’m quite confident that He can confirm the truth, or otherwise, of the incidents and truths recorded in the History of the Church. (I think that @Jane_Doe can confirm this). A study of the history of the church (lower case) is primarily an intellectual exercise, and although hopefully a greater understanding of church history can help to improve our knowledge and faith, developing a good knowledge of church history in lieu of a testimony is similar to the difference between knowing about Christ and knowing Christ. One kind of knowledge is intellectual, developed through lots of study, and the other kind is personal/spiritual, something that is felt rather than proven. The value of the two different types of knowledge can perhaps be demonstrated by taking the analogy a little further. One can study about Christ for years and years, and based on all of this study, come to a conclusion that Christ had white hair and then live a happy life based on this carefully constructed belief. However, a more learned person comes along and proves conclusively that Christ had brown hair. What then happens to the structure of knowledge and belief that has been built around conclusion that Christ has white hair? The likely result will be confusion, doubt and uncertainty. But for the person who knows Christ, it matters not a bit what colour his hair is. The person who knows Christ can listen to conflicting evidence all day from dozens of scholars who have dedicated their lives to a study of Christ’s hair colour and all their conflicting arguments won’t have an impact on his testimony because he knows Christ

In one of your recent posts, (and I kind of sensed your confusion/frustration when you wrote it) you asked something like how much does this (“this” referring to inconsistencies in the History of the Church) really matter. I took that to mean you asking something like whether or not you had to agree with or believe all this other stuff in order to accept the rest of the church and its teachings and doctrines. Here is my attempt to set out the stuff that really does matter and that you really do need to accept and have faith in in order to become a member of the church. (I’ve gone a bit further than I intended by adding in brackets my guess as to where I think you are up to on each of these point. Perhaps that’s a bit cheeky or judgmental of me, apologies if it offends)

The reality and divinity of God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost ( I think you have this)

The Plan of Salvation (Currently under development)

The truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and the other Standard Works ( I think you have this in relation to the Book of Mormon, but perhaps not the Book of Abraham)

The restoration of the gospel (Currently under development

That Joseph Smith was a prophet called of God to restore the gospel and that Russell M Nelson is God’s living prophet on the earth today.  (Significant progress being made)

The restoration of the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthood and that these Priesthoods constitute the authority of God given to man (Being examined)

A willingness to live the various covenants and commitments that go along with all this, particularly tithing, fast offering, Word of Wisdom and Law of Chastity. (Almost certainly yes once the above is confirmed)

This list may well be viewed by others as incomplete or poorly worded. I’m reasonably confident that others can add to or improve this list.

Even if you don’t yet have this faith or understanding on all of these points, it looks like you have a strong willingness to obtain it and at this point, that’s a crucially important thing to have.

 

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On 2/10/2018 at 6:47 PM, Blossom76 said:

But you can understand how an investigator would view this as an insult though right?

Anybody looking for an insult will ALWAYS find it.  Anywhere.  It is not the job of the truth-bearer to make the truth easy to swallow.  It is the job of the truth-bearer to keep the light shining very bright so that when those whose eyes are hurt by the light of truth will continue to see the light when they are finally ready to accept it.

Proof of Priesthood Authority, Gospel Truth, etc., cannot be found in Church History or any other means.  How do you prove that Bishop Linus received Apostolic Authority to become the first Pope?  How do you prove that Joseph Smith received Apostolic Authority?  How did you prove to yourself that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?  Those can only be proven by the Holy Ghost.  The truth-bearer can only bear personal witness to these truths.  They can't prove those truths to anybody.   The truth-seeker will have to gain his own witness from the Holy Ghost... No amount of historical study, although a good and righteous endeavor, can make the truth manifest itself.   To be able to gain a testimony from the Holy Ghost, one must first humble himself before God.  Taking offense is a barrier to humility.  Taking offense is a product of pride.

Edited by anatess2
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6 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Anybody looking for an insult will ALWAYS find it.  Anywhere.  It is not the job of the truth-bearer to make the truth easy to swallow.  It is the job of the truth-bearer to keep the light shining very bright so that when those whose eyes are hurt by the light of truth will continue to see the light when they are finally ready to accept it.

Proof of Priesthood Authority, Gospel Truth, etc., cannot be found in Church History or any other means.  How do you prove that Bishop Linus received Apostolic Authority to become the first Pope?  How do you prove that Joseph Smith received Apostolic Authority?  How did you prove to yourself that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?  Those can only be proven by the Holy Ghost.  The truth-bearer can only bear personal witness to these truths.  They can't prove those truths to anybody.  The truth-seeker will have to gain his own witness from the Holy Ghost... but to be able to do so, he first has to humble himself before God.  Taking offense is a barrier to humility.  Taking offense is a product of pride.

It's funny.  If you look back on my missionary thread you'll see where an issue I had was when Mormons ALWAYS say "I know the Book of Mormon is true", etc.  It drove me nuts.  Now on the other side, I totally get it.  I catch myself saying it as a form of "trust me, I have a testimony of this.  I'm telling you it's true because there is no physical evidence, so take my word for it until you get your own".  I have to be very careful of this because I remember how much it bugged me.  I took it as people trying to convince themselves.

Edited by Grunt
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1 minute ago, Grunt said:

It's funny.  If you look back on my missionary thread you'll see where an issue I had was when Mormons ALWAYS say "I know the Book of Mormon is true, etc.  It drove me nuts.  Now on the other side, I totally get it.  I catch myself saying it as a form of "trust me, I have a testimony of this.  I'm telling you it's true because there is no physical evidence, so take my word for it until you get your own".  I have to be very careful of this because I remember how much it bugged me.  I took it as people trying to convince themselves.

This didn't bug me when I was trying to learn about the Church.  I would say the same thing for people asking about the Catholic Church so I understand where that comes from.  What bugged me was the missionaries often asking me... "Have you prayed about <...>?"  or "Are you ready to <....>?".  So, I had a hard and fast rule in my house for missionaries - don't ask me any questions.  I will ask the questions.  It became a funny thing because they would ask, "Where's the bathroom?" and my husband would say, "You're in trouble now... you asked a question.".  :)

 

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48 minutes ago, Grunt said:

It's funny.  If you look back on my missionary thread you'll see where an issue I had was when Mormons ALWAYS say "I know the Book of Mormon is true", etc.  It drove me nuts.  Now on the other side, I totally get it.  I catch myself saying it as a form of "trust me, I have a testimony of this.  I'm telling you it's true because there is no physical evidence, so take my word for it until you get your own".  I have to be very careful of this because I remember how much it bugged me.  I took it as people trying to convince themselves.

My reaction to people objecting to others saying "I know" probably stems from too many experiences at work1, but here's how I see it:

1) You are not in the speaker's head.  You have no idea what the speaker hopes, believes, trusts, knows.  You don't know whether that brain is Swiss cheese or next to exalted.  In short, you are utterly unqualified to determine what's in that brain.

2) Given #1, for all you know, the speaker knows.  For all you know, the speaker is one of the three Nephites (in drag - ok, probably not in drag, but it could be one of the three Nephites).

Sure, some people use "know" as an abbreviated expression of faith, trust, testimony, and/or certainty.  Others likely say it by rote without much thought.  Some of us think there's more than one way to come to knowledge, but that it is knowledge regardless of the way.  And some folks really do know (regardless of how you want to define that verb).  The important point is that only the "knower" knows what he or she knows.  The rest of us cannot correctly make claims about what other people's brains know (or don't know).

1I work in IT.  Non-IT people (NITs) think either that IT people (ITs) have magic wands, or that NITs (because they use a computer and once made a macro in Excel) are just as smart as ITs about IT things.  Therefore, it's pretty common for NITs to assert knowledge of what an IT does or does not know.  With some NITs, it requires great restraint to keep from beating sense into them with their own keyboard.  I try very hard (but probably fail sometimes) to avoid telling other people what they do or do not, can or cannot know.  And yeah, it's possible I'm determined to convince people to stop making claims about what's in other people's brains.2

2Yes, I see the irony there, with me saying that no one can know what's in another person's brain, thus claiming knowledge of what's (not) in everyone's brain.  I'm calling this the exception that proves the rule.  (God, and probably all celestial beings - doesn't that make you feel all warm and fuzzy - being the exception as He - and probably they - knows exactly what's in everyone else's brain.)

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On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 10:27 AM, zil said:

I just want to say, if I could build a neighborhood and pick my neighbors, these are the people I would want living in the houses closes to mine (in no particular order, except that I started my list with people who I feel like I understand well and appreciate, but who others are choosing to be offended at rather than getting to know them well enough to appreciate1 - something that is unfortunate for said offendees; and that's part of my point - these are good, solid people who could be a blessing in your life, if you'd let them, but who are no more likely that I am to tolerate getting walked on, or to coddle to one's drama / over-sensitivity to rational commentary):

  • @Traveler (though we'd probably annoy each other quite often)

Robotically Yours,

zil

The secret of my neighborhood success is Mrs. Traveler.  Like my neighbors now - that put up with me but it is worth it many fold because of her.  I doubt you could find anything about her that would annoy you and if I ever annoyed you in her presents - she would likely see it coming even befor you would and stop me from offending you.  Sorry but you have no idea what you are missing.

 

The Traveler

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