Utah school requires girls to say "Yes" to all boys who ask them to dance.

[JohnsonJones]

5 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I forget what is a snowball dance?  

If I remember, that's where you start with a partner, and then you separate and each of you get a new person to dance with...so two becomes four people on the dance floor, and then the separate and find new partners so you have eight on the floor...etc...etc...etc.

It's been a while, I think that's what I was.

I think the idea behind this that the principal was thinking of was one that my kids normally practiced (though this was many decades ago...the last left the house over a decade ago...so what was applicable then, probably is not applicable now) where if they were asked out on a date...unless something really was off about the person and the person seemed okay...they would agree to go on at least the first date (normally as long as it was with another couple or chaperoned though) with the individual.  They did not need to say yes to a second one though, the first one was a courtesy. 

I'm not sure how that would go over today though, times change.

Edit: Ah, MG beat me to it.  It looks like my memory was basically right though...

Edited February 13, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[NeuroTypical]

I remember my middle-school years as a grey smear of anxiety with occasional red streaks of terror.  I was bottom of all the social ladders as recognized by all the groups.  I was shy and gullible and cowardly and socially inept and afraid of rejection or ridicule.  Worst 4 years of my life.  Peer pressure almost killed me back then.  I absolutely did not go to any dances, or for that matter any other non-classroom event if I could avoid it. 

The school's intent with this practice of "say yes", was to reach out to such kids.  Help encourage an accepting and inclusive atmosphere.  Help the backwards ones like I was, have some opportunities to grow a little self-esteem based on the payoff of asking a girl to dance and having them say yes. 

Bit of practical reality: If I had caught wind of something similar back when I was that kid, you couldn't have dragged me to such a thing at gunpoint.  No matter what the grown-ups are thinking or saying or striving for here, the brutal jungle of teenager culture already has it figured out.  The "pity yes" kids, who can only dance with girls because the schools force them to say yes, already know who they are.  And so does every other kid in school, including the girls.

I'd bet ten bucks the kids in this school already have a name for these kids - and it's likely more horrible than "pity yes" kids. 

This well-intentioned effort not only sends the wrong message to girls by violating their agency, it doesn't even help the kids it's intended to help.

Edited February 13, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[Guest MormonGator]

20 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

 Worst 4 years of my life. 

Same here, but I'd add on high school as another four years that were horrible. Worst four years of my life by far. 

Kids reading this-the good news is that most people with horrible high schools/junior high schools usually have wonderful college experiences and life afterwards. Most of the people I know who talk about the "good old days" and say that "high school is the best time of your life" have really sad lives. (No offense please, just my observations)

Edited February 13, 2018 by MormonGator

[NeuroTypical]

Heh - well, I know many people who have just had good lives, from youth on up.  But yeah, it's always interesting to look at my high-school graduating class and see the people who sort of stopped maturing in their teen years, and now a quarter of a century later, there they still are.  

But yeah, college (and then real life) was infinitely better than being forced to sit in a room with a bunch of jerks who were also forced to sit there.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, pam said:

Why not just do a bunch of snowballflake dances during the course of the dance?  

Ftfy.

[Sunday21]

We had this rule in my junior high school. I can understand why parents do not like it but...I feel that this rule helped to teach us 1) manners and 2) that every member of society is important and that we need to treat each member of society with respect. I do recognize however that my world, then and now , is more homogenized than many others and much less threatening. I understand that this rule would be difficult to keep in different circumstances. In my much more protected, and let’s face it bland world, this rule helped me to grow up. 

[NeuroTypical]

There is value in a lot of ways, to help/encourage/force all kids to do/act/be/think/believe similarly.   Respect for the rule of just laws, how to read and write, teaching the realities of the universe, a shared understanding about history and the things humans have done, etc.  

That said, there are umpteen ways to waste time and accomplish nothing good in trying to help/encourage/force some kids to do some things.  

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

55 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

We had this rule in my junior high school. I can understand why parents do not like it but...I feel that this rule helped to teach us 1) manners and 2) that every member of society is important and that we need to treat each member of society with respect. I do recognize however that my world, then and now , is more homogenized than many others and much less threatening. I understand that this rule would be difficult to keep in different circumstances. In my much more protected, and let’s face it bland world, this rule helped me to grow up. 

Sunday, you know I love you, but no just no.  I understand what you are saying - kids can be cruel and this is just meant to teach them to be civil and respectful to everyone. The trouble is it goes farther than that. 

If this is supposed to teach respect then where is the respect for the girl being asked to dance?  The whole focus here appears to be on what the boys want...as if only their wants and needs matter.  That is a very dangerous message.  

 

[Guest MormonGator]

46 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Sunday, you know I love you, but no just no.  I understand what you are saying - kids can be cruel and this is just meant to teach them to be civil and respectful to everyone. The trouble is it goes farther than that. 

If this is supposed to teach respect then where is the respect for the girl being asked to dance?  The whole focus here appears to be on what the boys want...as if only their wants and needs matter.  That is a very dangerous message.  

 

This story is proof that what mommy and daddy told you is absolutely right. Intentions are not good enough. Their intent is to spare the feelings of kids who don't get dances. That's noble, and like I mentioned, I've been there. But @LiterateParakeet is exactly right @Sunday21. The message they are sending to young  girls is incredibly disturbing. 

 

[zil]

According to CNN, the school finally got the message...

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/13/health/utah-school-children-dance-trnd/index.html

[Guest]

4 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

You realize WHY there are participation ribbons and not keeping score in sports?  Right?

It was to encourage people to PLAY sports instead of stay inside, and to show that sports in and of themselves can be fun, that there was no need for competition.

Participation ribbons actually were regularly given out in my day and later with my kids...it's only been in the past 20 years that I've seen people start complaining about them and several organizations stop passing them out.

Not surprisingly, America's obesity rate has skyrocketed during that time period...

Might not be a cause and effect, but I don't think it's merely coincidence.  Stop making sports about simply being fun, and make it more about competition, and those who don't do well in sports or are not competitive suddenly are not going to enjoy or like sports anymore.

Hey!  Big surprise.  I was never very good at sports as a kid.  So, I regularly got participation ribbons.  Do you know what that did for my ego?  It made me feel worse than I already did for losing.  Every time I got the participation ribbon it was like announcing to everyone,"Hey!  This is the kid who wasn't good enough to compete, but thought he might actually be in the running. HAH!"

No, it would have been MUCH better if I had not recieved anything at all than face the public humiliation.

And it certainly didn't make me feel any better about sports.  To this day I don't know the difference between a half-back and a full-back.  I only learned what a ground-rule double was in College (when my body finally caught up to my brain and I was actually good at baseball).

This dance rule is even worse because it not only does this to boys.  But it also make girls complicit in this shaming activity.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Guest

[Just_A_Guy]

5 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Yeah.  My first thought was that they didn't realize (naiveté) but they know and stand by their choice.  That's scary to me.  I wouldn't want to live in that town.  That might sound extreme, but the prinicipal, the teachers, the school board...whomever made this decision and is foolishly standing by it....are mostly likely members of the church.  What if they are men?  What if they hold prominent positions in the church?  What if that principle was your Bishop?  Eiiiiieeeeeee!   

It’s interesting how differently we approach this; because I was thinking just the opposite.  IIRC the Church discourages (or, in my day, discouraged) kids under 14 participating in dances in the first place (certainly that was the minimum age for stake dances).  I figured that the fact an elementary school was holding a Valentine’s Day dance at all, was probably an indicator of growing non-LDS influence.  

I have a sixth-grader going to school in Utah County.  I’ve never heard of her school sponsoring such an event; and even if it did—I wouldn’t let her go.  

[zil]

17 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

To this day I don't know the difference between a half-back and a full-back.

Here ya go:

Hope that clarifies for you.

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

was probably an indicator of growing non-LDS influence. 

I heard somewhere that Utah is getting less and less LDS all around. Since I don't live there, I obviously don't know. Just what I've heard. 

[askandanswer]

3 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

In my much more protected, and let’s face it bland world, this rule helped me to grow up. 

Ahhhh, good, now I know who to blame - the rules at Sunday's high school  

[NightSG]

8 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Just speaking as a guy, this is a lesson we (men) must learn at an early age. No one wants to be turned down, but it happens to all of us. You deal with it and move on. When a girl says "no" in junior high it'll empower her and make it easier for her to say "no" later in life. This is one of the worst, worst rules I've ever seen for a school.

You're missing the other side of it; while the girls should be taught that it's one dance, not a marriage proposal, the boys also need to learn to ask properly, which they won't if the girls are required to say yes.

[askandanswer]

27 minutes ago, zil said:

Here ya go:

Hope that clarifies for you.

Only applicable if we're talking about human backs. In reality, there are many more different kinds of back and half backs than this

Edited February 14, 2018 by askandanswer

[zil]

Just now, askandanswer said:

Only applicable if we'er talking about human backs. In reality, there are many more different kinds of back and half backs than this

We were talking about sports played by humans, hence, human backs.

[askandanswer]

Time to get back to the main topic

[Vort]

6 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

There are many articles about teaching consent out there.  Here is one I liked:
http://www.parentmap.com/article/metoo-sexual-assault-how-teach-consent

What a horrible article. Seriously. It was embarrassing even to read, like something written by a clueless Seattle liberal. The author is obviously a woman who loathes human beings and the physical communication they use with their children. What a hideously ugly world she lives in,  and wants to impose on everyone else. If I didn't know better, I'd say she was some foul-mouthed, pink-haired uber-Leftist who writes for The Stranger.

Oh, wait...

 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Vort said:

What a horrible article. Seriously. It was embarrassing even to read, like something written by a clueless Seattle liberal. The author is obviously a woman who loathes human beings and the physical communication they use with their children. What a hideously ugly world she lives in,  and wants to impose on everyone else. If I didn't know better, I'd say she was some foul-mouthed, pink-haired uber-Leftist who writes for The Stranger.

Oh, wait...

You know that I just had to look up The Stranger.  I wish I hadn't.  It think I'll need a bath in gasoline to get the slime off of me.

[Prttynglttr]

I feel as though this is one sided. We are appeasing to the boy’s emotions (mostly) so they are not hurt or rejected while taking power away from the girls. We are telling these girls it is not okay to say what you feel but to make boys happy and not hurt their feelings. This goes back to the idea women are here to smile, look pretty, and appease men. Those are not God defined gender roles. That is sexism.

 Children should be taught effective communication, boundaries, being respectful, and to be kind. The kids turned down for dances aren’t scarred by the kind ones that just aren’t interested but by the ones that are cruel and mean. 

To the person who said this isn’t a big issue and it starts at home. Children spend most of their social lives at school and develop skills and habits. Yes things are taught in the home but practiced elsewhere. A shchool should not be telling any child they have to dance or touch anyone if they don’t feel comfortable, period. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

It’s interesting how differently we approach this; because I was thinking just the opposite.  IIRC the Church discourages (or, in my day, discouraged) kids under 14 participating in dances in the first place (certainly that was the minimum age for stake dances).  I figured that the fact an elementary school was holding a Valentine’s Day dance at all, was probably an indicator of growing non-LDS influence.  

I have a sixth-grader going to school in Utah County.  I’ve never heard of her school sponsoring such an event; and even if it did—I wouldn’t let her go.  

Okay fair enough.    I hope you are right.  
 

57 minutes ago, Vort said:

What a horrible article. Seriously. It was embarrassing even to read, like something written by a clueless Seattle liberal. The author is obviously a woman who loathes human beings and the physical communication they use with their children. What a hideously ugly world she lives in,  and wants to impose on everyone else. If I didn't know better, I'd say she was some foul-mouthed, pink-haired uber-Leftist who writes for The Stranger.

Oh, wait...

 

Wait, what you disagree with me?  How shocking. 

So are you against the idea of teaching children consent entirely, or just this approach?  Perhaps you have an article that is better?  I'm open to suggestions.   

[prisonchaplain]

Serious question:  I thought LDS youth were not to date until they are 16. What's with a school in predominantly LDS Utah forcing 12-year-olds to dance? Also, if a child is being taught to only date within their faith, are they going to force the girl to say yes to the boy her parents/church are telling her to say no to?  Biggest question of all:  Why is this school sticking to this absurd policy now that it's been outed???

[Just_A_Guy]

3 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Serious question:  I thought LDS youth were not to date until they are 16. What's with a school in predominantly LDS Utah forcing 12-year-olds to dance? Also, if a child is being taught to only date within their faith, are they going to force the girl to say yes to the boy her parents/church are telling her to say no to?  Biggest question of all:  Why is this school sticking to this absurd policy now that it's been outed???

I know, right?