Utah school requires girls to say "Yes" to all boys who ask them to dance.


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11 minutes ago, Vort said:

I see such events as the OP mentioned an attempt to get back to simple etiquette. Sadly, I am afraid this particular point of etiquette might be long dead and buried in the past. ... and manners seem to have all but disappeared.

IMO, before you can get back to such simple etiquette, you first have to instill the manners which enabled that etiquette to function safely.  Back then, a dance was a formal thing with defined steps and both parties knew how close together they would be (not so close as is typical today) and whose hands would go where (not reliably predicted with strangers today, and certainty of punishment after the fact is not a good mitigating factor).

In my sixth grade classes, I knew of kids who were having sex with each other.  I knew of boys who could not have cared less whether a girl wanted his hand on her butt or up her blouse - if he saw the chance, he would take it - and I know of instances where some did.  So it's not terribly surprising to me, or offensive in the least, to suggest that girls have the right to refuse to get within 10 feet of particular boys, regardless of what the boys or the teachers want.  Train some manners into such boys (and undoubtedly there are girls as bad), and I might limit my concerns strictly to what @Just_A_Guy pointed out - age.

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40 minutes ago, Vort said:

Decent manners of polite society demanded that she accept any and all invitations to dance.

 

I see such events as the OP mentioned an attempt to get back to simple etiquette.

 

19 minutes ago, zil said:

IMO, before you can get back to such simple etiquette, you first have to instill the manners which enabled that etiquette to function safely.  Back then, a dance was a formal thing with defined steps and both parties knew how close together they would be (not so close as is typical today) and whose hands would go where (not reliably predicted with strangers today, and certainty of punishment after the fact is not a good mitigating factor).

In my sixth grade classes, I knew of kids who were having sex with each other.  I knew of boys who could not have cared less whether a girl wanted his hand on her butt or up her blouse - if he saw the chance, he would take it - and I know of instances where some did.  So it's not terribly surprising to me, or offensive in the least, to suggest that girls have the right to refuse to get within 10 feet of particular boys, regardless of what the boys or the teachers want.  Train some manners into such boys (and undoubtedly there are girls as bad), and I might limit my concerns strictly to what @Just_A_Guy pointed out - age.

Nail on the head.

Watch this video that the SJWs once again tried to skewer Jordan Peterson with.  Peterson talks about RULES and how they need to be well defined and things such as sexual harassment in the workplace may be mitigated by establishing strict rules that eliminate confusing signals between opposite sexes... he mentions that sexual harassment is a byproduct of the changing rules when women entered the workforce 40 years ago and that the confusion on the proper behaviors between males and females in such close cooperative proximity takes more than 40 years to become fleshed out in society to establish what is a good pattern of behavior versus a bad pattern until it becomes a cultural signature.

P.S.  Vice News is undergoing several lawsuits against Vice high-ranking employees for sexual harassment.

 

Edited by anatess2
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Yeah I didn’t want to read the article but thought, this is a silly rule to have for a school regardless of gender. 

Having a choice teaches empowerment, boundaries (something much needed in the Utah culture in my opinion) and it’s just life ??‍♀️.

This just fuels unnecessary anxiety about making choices and feeling out of control as a teen

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On 2/21/2018 at 8:31 AM, Traveler said:

 

Let me bring up something – when our society supports a “no I will not dance with you” attitude with young girls and a certain boy finds himself rejected by everyone he asks and then teased by all the other boys for being a social misfit – if such an experience in 6th grade continues until the little boy becomes a confused young man in high school – if such a young man would not fight an urge to take an assault weapon to school and open fire.  

 

The Traveler

I get it, but no, my daughters will not be directed to dance with boys they are uncertain about, no matter how therapeutic said boys may find the experience to be. 

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On 2/21/2018 at 8:56 AM, zil said:

IMO, before you can get back to such simple etiquette, you first have to instill the manners which enabled that etiquette to function safely.  Back then, a dance was a formal thing with defined steps and both parties knew how close together they would be (not so close as is typical today) and whose hands would go where (not reliably predicted with strangers today, and certainty of punishment after the fact is not a good mitigating factor).

To be clear, when I said that "manners have all but disappeared", I was referring not only to well-mannered ladies, but well-mannered gentlemen as well. Women can have polite manners toward men only when it is well understood that the men will not grossly abuse the privilege. (The same applies in reverse.) Good manners must be reciprocal, or the well-mannered person always finds himself/herself at a tactical disadvantage and often in an uncomfortable, perhaps even dangerous, situation.

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This thread has been one of the most significant and important “things” I have read or been exposed to – in I do not know how long.  I want to thank @MormonGator for starting it.  There have been so many posts that have caused me to stop, wonder and ponder.  As I have read posts I have wondered how far reaching and complicated changes in our society are having on individuals as well as society.  I can only speak for myself and my family in which I was raised.  So here is my statement - I have long believed that I was raised up in the best possible circumstances.  I say this because the lessons of my youth have been critical and valuable throughout my entire life.  As flawed as my parents were – there were amazingly good and wonderful – and made astonishingly good decisions in raising me and my siblings.  My siblings have all been among the best people I have ever known – and my friends of my youth have all been and remain good steadfast examples of what is good and noble in individuals, families and societies (despite the fact that there is not one general authority - woops - one exception).

Paramount to my upbringing was what I would call emotional honesty and consistency.   But I am also a very literal person – and as much as I have emphasized symbolism – I most enjoy literal straight forward communication.  Yet I do understand that sending mixed singles when we communicate with others are what I believe to be the root of all misunderstanding – not just of the sexes (genders) but every other relationship, friendship and efforts to understand and communicate with others – and this includes G-d.

There is another dimension – Shakespeare said it this way – “To thin own self be true and it shall follow as the night the day, thou cannot be false with any man.”  I must admit that my greatest problems with others have been when I have tried to give the impression that I am something I am not.   I have also had problems trying to understand or make someone in to something I want or intend to understand rather than what they really are.

In short I find myself agreeing with Jordan B. Peterson in @anatess2 ‘s recent post.  We need gender boundaries and definitions – I am concerned in our efforts to “clean things up” – we are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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On 2/14/2018 at 7:19 AM, LiterateParakeet said:

This makes my blood boil.  After many parents spoke up and said wise things like, "“Inclusiveness is not nearly as important as teaching children that they have no obligation to allow anyone to touch them or invade their personal space if it makes them uncomfortable.”  And “This sends the wrong message. Anyone should have the right to say 'no.' Teaching children how to say no respectfully is a more important lesson.”  The school insists on keeping the rule.  They can't claim ignorance, they know and they choose to insist on inclusivity anyway.  What does that tell us about the people in charge?  

If my children went to this school, I would sit them down and talk to them about consent.  And I would give them the option NOT to attend the dances.  I admit my first inclination would be to insist they don't go, but since I'm trying to teach consent that would be hypocritical.  

There are many articles about teaching consent out there.  Here is one I liked:
http://www.parentmap.com/article/metoo-sexual-assault-how-teach-consent
 

 

On 2/14/2018 at 2:17 PM, Vort said:

What a horrible article. Seriously. It was embarrassing even to read, like something written by a clueless Seattle liberal. The author is obviously a woman who loathes human beings and the physical communication they use with their children. What a hideously ugly world she lives in,  and wants to impose on everyone else. If I didn't know better, I'd say she was some foul-mouthed, pink-haired uber-Leftist who writes for The Stranger.

Oh, wait...

 

 

On 2/14/2018 at 2:30 PM, Carborendum said:

You know that I just had to look up The Stranger.  I wish I hadn't.  It think I'll need a bath in gasoline to get the slime off of me.

A recent BYU devotional by the Dean of the College of Family, Home and Social Sciences ( https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/benjamin-m-ogles_agency-accountability-atonement-jesus-christ/) dealt with the issue of consent.   I thought that some of his comments were not too far from those made in the parentmap article. Here is a short extract from the address:

Agency and Personal Space

Through my service on the Advisory Council and Campus Climate Survey Committee, I have also gained insights about consent and agency in everyday nonsexual, interpersonal inter­actions. For example, I realized that I sometimes roughhoused with my grandchildren in a way that disregarded their right to choose how to manage their personal space. While playing together, I sometimes chased and grabbed one of my grandchildren and then tickled them while ignoring their protests.

In the middle of the summer of 2016, while reading first-person accounts of sexual assault, I realized that tickling my grandchildren in this way was potentially problematic. Although it was innocent and all in good fun, perhaps it was not okay for me to tickle them in spite of their objections. I wondered, “What am I teaching them about agency, their voice, and their personal space? Will these early learning experiences influence their perceptions about what is and is not okay in future relationships?” My study of sexual assault changed my ideas and behavior concerning personal space and respect for another’s agency.

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21 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

 

 

A recent BYU devotional by the Dean of the College of Family, Home and Social Sciences ( https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/benjamin-m-ogles_agency-accountability-atonement-jesus-christ/) dealt with the issue of consent.   I thought that some of his comments were not too far from those made in the parentmap article. Here is a short extract from the address:

Agency and Personal Space

Through my service on the Advisory Council and Campus Climate Survey Committee, I have also gained insights about consent and agency in everyday nonsexual, interpersonal inter­actions. For example, I realized that I sometimes roughhoused with my grandchildren in a way that disregarded their right to choose how to manage their personal space. While playing together, I sometimes chased and grabbed one of my grandchildren and then tickled them while ignoring their protests.

In the middle of the summer of 2016, while reading first-person accounts of sexual assault, I realized that tickling my grandchildren in this way was potentially problematic. Although it was innocent and all in good fun, perhaps it was not okay for me to tickle them in spite of their objections. I wondered, “What am I teaching them about agency, their voice, and their personal space? Will these early learning experiences influence their perceptions about what is and is not okay in future relationships?” My study of sexual assault changed my ideas and behavior concerning personal space and respect for another’s agency.

Oh, I agree with him. Tickling is a form of torture, those who tickle an unwilling participant are guilty of torturing them. That is a very far cry from giving your grandchildren a hug or a kiss.

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32 minutes ago, Vort said:

Oh, I agree with him. Tickling is a form of torture, those who tickle an unwilling participant are guilty of torturing them.

It must also be a form of brainwashing (or Pavlovian training or something) because when I was younger, all my dad had to do was extend and retract his index finger in my direction (nowhere near touching me) and I'd break out giggling as if he'd actually tickled me.  Can this be considered a disability? Trauma?  Maybe I could get on some federal, social security disability income thing...

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