Another horrific school shooting

[Guest MormonGator]

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Police-Respond-Marjory-Stoneman-Douglas-High-School-Parkland-474078423.html

I'm not sure how we can solve this problem. Gun control won't work-that'll just take away gun from people who weren't going to do anything. But these mass shootings are so horrible. 

[Jane_Doe]

These a major problem, a symptom of a great unwellness.  The solution for this should involve ID'ing and treating the unwellness that motivates these indigents.  While I certainly don't have all the ID'ing done and am no expert, communicating with people and making sure they know they're loved is part.  We has a nation have gotten horrible at making REAL connections with REAL in-person people (yes, I am aware the irony of me writing this as a stranger on the internet).

We also need to work on treating any mental illness before things erupt crazy style. 

Edited February 14, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[Guest]

When we've developed a culture that sends mixed messages about the value of life, then how do we expect teenagers to react when they're already confused by all the changes that occur during that period in their lives?

We say we value life, but we continue to praise violence in so many arenas of culture.

We say we value children's futures and then promote abortion on demand.

How do we expect children budding into adulthood to behave?

[Blossom76]

I'm an Australian so I guess I have a different point on view on this issue.  We have very strong Gun Control laws, that's not to say you can't get one, but its very involved and certainly not easy.  I can count on my fingers the amount of these kind of shooting incidents we've had in our schools and community.  I think the Gun Control laws should be looked at.

[Jane_Doe]

3 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

I'm an Australian so I guess I have a different point on view on this issue.  We have very strong Gun Control laws, that's not to say you can't get one, but its very involved and certainly not easy.  I can count on my fingers the amount of these kind of shooting incidents we've had in our schools and community.  I think the Gun Control laws should be looked at.

I think that's more treating a symptom than the actual disease.  Plus there's the matter that only law-abiding citizens turn in guns.  

[Guest MormonGator]

13 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

I think that's more treating a symptom than the actual disease.  Plus there's the matter that only law-abiding citizens turn in guns.  

It's tough to tell a non-American how fixed in our culture gun ownership is-and again, remember I am a gun owner and do not support gun restriction laws, so this isn't an insult. But it's very hard for someone not from America to understand that. So I can totally see where @Blossom76 is coming from. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Honestly, I'm at the point where I just want us to do something!  Either take away guns or arm the teachers, I don't really care, which way we go as long as we try something!  

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Honestly, I'm at the point where I just want us to do something!  Either take away guns or arm the teachers, I don't really care, which way we go as long as we try something!  

I'd go for abolishing public schools and have home, private, religious, and charter schools everywhere.

Does anyone know of a link outlining such a mass shooting at a school OTHER than a public one?  Honest question.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Guest

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I'd go for abolishing public schools and have home, private, religious, and charter schools everywhere.

Does anyone know of a link outlining such a mass shooting at a school OTHER than a public one?  Honest question.

If public schools were disbanded, required education placed on the parents' shoulders, and homeschooling became de rigeur, we would stand the very real, very frightening possibility of seeing a generation of children with actual literacy, steeped in the beliefs of their parents, and perhaps even with an authentic love of learning.

The risk is simply too great.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Vort

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Vort said:

If public schools were disbanded, required education placed on the parents' shoulders, and homeschooling became de rigeur, we would stand the very real, very frightening possibility of seeing a generation of children with actual literacy, steeped in the beliefs of their parents, and perhaps even with an authentic love of learning.

The risk is simply too great.

Alas!  What was I thinking?

Yup.  We'd better keep our children in these death traps and blame it on inanimate objects rather than the absolving of parental responsibility or the agenda of their bureaucratic surrogates.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Guest

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

10 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I'd go for abolishing public schools and have home, private, religious, and charter schools everywhere.

Does anyone know of a link outlining such a mass shooting at a school OTHER than a public one?  Honest question.

I'm a homeschooler so I think I get where you are coming from.  However, not everyone is "cut out" for homeschool.  For example, one of my son's friends wants to be homeschooled so badly.  His mom is a high school dropout with a goal to some day get her GED, so as you can imagine she doesn't feel qualified to homeschool.  I did suggest to her that their are online programs, especially for high school, where she wouldn't have to do the teaching, just make sure he's doing the work, but he's still in public school.  

Then there are the families where both parents work during the day...

And heaven forbid, the abusive families where public school is a haven for the children.  

[anatess2]

STRONG, STABLE FAMILIES WITH STRONG FAMILY VALUES!

That's the ONLY solution.  In my clan, if we find out we have some idiot cousin who would take a gun and shoot up a school, we smack him upside the head over and over until he gets over that notion!

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I'm a homeschooler so I think I get where you are coming from.  However, not everyone is "cut out" for homeschool.  For example, one of my son's friends wants to be homeschooled so badly.  His mom is a high school dropout with a goal to some day get her GED, so as you can imagine she doesn't feel qualified to homeschool.  I did suggest to her that their are online programs, especially for high school, where she wouldn't have to do the teaching, just make sure he's doing the work, but he's still in public school.  

Then there are the families where both parents work during the day...

And heaven forbid, the abusive families where public school is a haven for the children.  

As for the dropout: yes, I'd respond the same way you did.  Find a good online program.

For both parents working during the day: bring one of them home.  Obviously, I'd say the mom is preferable. But I'm considering some exceptions to the rule for some circumstances.  The problem is that some people don't want to give up the income.  I've lived in poverty, real poverty.  And I've lived in poverty in the U.S.  I'd be HAPPY to live in poverty in the U.S. if that were the only way to keep my kids safe.

Not only that, I'd look at what Defending the Indefensible has to say about child labor.  Our economy is supposed to be generational, not individual.  But the current generation and society is all focused on the individual.

As for the abuse: What you're saying is (and, no, I'm not saying this to be snotty, but as a logical conclusion) that on the balance, you'd prefer kids get killed in mass shootings than be abused by their parents.  Think about it.  We're trying to get away from one bad consequence and run into another bad consequence.  It is just a question of which is more preferable.  If you're not saying that, then you can't say it is an either or.  There is a way to protect kids from random shooters AND the few from abusive parents -- even in homeschool environments.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Guest

[pam]

1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Honestly, I'm at the point where I just want us to do something!  Either take away guns or arm the teachers, I don't really care, which way we go as long as we try something!  

You aren't taking my gun!!! 

[JohnsonJones]

4 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

These a major problem, a symptom of a great unwellness.  The solution for this should involve ID'ing and treating the unwellness that motivates these indigents.  While I certainly don't have all the ID'ing done and am no expert, communicating with people and making sure they know they're loved is part.  We has a nation have gotten horrible at making REAL connections with REAL in-person people (yes, I am aware the irony of me writing this as a stranger on the internet).

We also need to work on treating any mental illness before things erupt crazy style. 

A LOT of these don't seem to actually stem from Mental Illness or from those diagnosed with Mental Illness.  It is a popular meme to try to blame, but it seems that a majority of these cases that make the news (when we know the motive...some of the larger ones we do not like the Vegas shooter) it is normally from someone who was being bullied a lot (and many times this isn't brought up, but it seems to be a common thread), or someone driven by either anger or hatred. 

I think a better tool would be to be able to identify those who are unusually angry about something or some issue and ensure that while they have this type of anger they are not able to access weapons.

[JohnsonJones]

4 hours ago, MormonGator said:

It's tough to tell a non-American how fixed in our culture gun ownership is-and again, remember I am a gun owner and do not support gun restriction laws, so this isn't an insult. But it's very hard for someone not from America to understand that. So I can totally see where @Blossom76 is coming from. 

What is interesting is that we have had so FEW of these shootings.  They normally do not list all the shootings that were stopped by others who also happened to have guns on them, but I think I heard in one year it typically can number close to two hundred.

That's two hundred various public shootings stopped by someone else who happened to have a gun on them at the time.  The news normally does not report those.

In comparison, Australia itself has over 200 gun deaths each year.  The biggest reduction happened between 1996 and 1998.  In 1996 there were over 500 gun deaths in Australia, but in a 2 year period, they reduced it by over 200 deaths.  It has stayed about even for about the past decade hovering between 200 and 250 deaths each year.

That doesn't mean gun control doesn't work or does not have an effect.  Australia, as an example, has reduced it's gun deaths by 50% over the past 20 years.  However, it is one thing to stop gun deaths, but it is another to control the murder rate.

I think a LOT of gun control is cultural.  For example, in Japan, murder is normally not something that is a huge factor.  There is a great more respect for their other Japanese.

In the US on the otherhand, I think a LOT of the respect people have for others in some other nations is severely lacking in the US, and that is one of the main factors that contribute to gun crime, gun deaths, AND the murder rate.  I think that even when we increase gun control, it actually does not work here in the US, as we have multiple examples where they have increased gun laws and have very strict gun laws...and as that happens the murder rates of places like Washington DC, Chicago, and some cities in California have skyrocketed over the same 20 years span that Australia cut it's gun death rate.

The question then is why it worked better in Australia than it did in the US cities?

My thoughts is that it is an entirely cultural effect.  To truly implement a change in how guns are seen and utilized, as well as how often murder occurs, we need to change the very culture that surrounds violence in the US.  In otherwords, it's not really the gun that kills people...though they are the instrument by which it is achieved...it is PEOPLE that kill People.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, JohnsonJones said:

What is interesting is that we have had so FEW of these shootings.  They normally do not list all the shootings that were stopped by others who also happened to have guns on them, but I think I heard in one year it typically can number close to two hundred.

 

Yup, agree totally. 

And sorry @JohnsonJones that's all I read in your posts. After the first paragraph my ADD kicks in. 
 

[JoCa]

20 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

A LOT of these don't seem to actually stem from Mental Illness or from those diagnosed with Mental Illness.  It is a popular meme to try to blame, but it seems that a majority of these cases that make the news (when we know the motive...some of the larger ones we do not like the Vegas shooter) it is normally from someone who was being bullied a lot (and many times this isn't brought up, but it seems to be a common thread), or someone driven by either anger or hatred. 

I think a better tool would be to be able to identify those who are unusually angry about something or some issue and ensure that while they have this type of anger they are not able to access weapons.

Exactly (to the bold). We live in a wicked and fallen world, consequently some people will choose to do things that are wicked and evil.  Claiming that anyone who shoots up a place is mentally ill is intellectually lazy and dishonest.  It's a great excuse to cover up the fact that sometimes people will choose to do evil, wicked things and it does a disservice to those who are "mentally ill"-which I don't believe in.  Generally speaking shooters have allowed Satan to get hold and have entertained wicked, evil thoughts and then act them out.

The vast, vast majority of people who have a psychotic break go catatonic and they can't actually function very well; going and shooting up a place is just about beyond the actual functional capability of someone who is psychotic.  And it also generally amplifies pre-existing beliefs rather than change them (i.e. if you aren't violent before you won't be violent during). Now to "cure" "mental illness" there are some very powerful drugs that do have some very bad side affects.

There are definitely some very weird and scary instances, due to the brain/spirit totally malfunctioning (but in the news article you can tell), the person blacks out, can't remember what happened, remembers snippets of really weird stuff happening.  But in general the vast, vast majority of shootings, killings, murders, etc. is due to personal choice.

Edited February 15, 2018 by JoCa

[askandanswer]

3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

STRONG, STABLE FAMILIES WITH STRONG FAMILY VALUES!

That's the ONLY solution.  In my clan, if we find out we have some idiot cousin who would take a gun and shoot up a school, we smack him upside the head over and over until he gets over that notion!

I imagine that this  ^ or something worse, would be the same reaction as most families if they were to ever discover that they have a potential school shooter in their midst. 

[askandanswer]

3 hours ago, pam said:

You aren't taking my gun!!! 

Of course I won't. I'm just expecting you to meekly hand it over when I ask for it. 

[Just_A_Guy]

4 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Honestly, I'm at the point where I just want us to do something!  Either take away guns or arm the teachers, I don't really care, which way we go as long as we try something!  

I wouldn’t compel teachers to carry who don’t want to carry; but IMHO it would be wise to end the business of schools being “gun free zones” so that potential murderers don’t have the assurance that their spree is going to be a turkey shoot. It’ll be interesting to see whether this site, too, was supposed to be gun-free.  

Utah allows school personnel to carry; and I know there are teachers at my daighter’s school who do.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

1 minute ago, Just_A_Guy said:

  Utah allows school personnel to carry; and I know there are teachers at my daighter’s school who do.

Fascinating.  I didn't know that any schools allowed school personnel to carry.    I think this is a good option--allowing as you said teachers that are not comfortable carrying, not to carry.  

[Guest MormonGator]

9 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Of course I won't. I'm just expecting you to meekly hand it over when I ask for it. 

Most people probably will meekly hand them in when the time comes. I don't see people starting a mass resistance over this issue, and even if they do-their 12 gauge isn't going to do much against an M2A2 Bradley tank. 

Speaking for me only,  it's easy to say "From my cold dead hands", but I don't know what I'd do. I'm saying this from the safety of a computer screen after all. 

Edited February 15, 2018 by MormonGator

[JoCa]

9 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Most people probably will meekly hand them in when the time comes. I don't see people starting a mass resistance over this issue, and even if they do-their 12 gauge isn't going to do much against an M2A2 Bradley tank. 

Speaking for me only,  it's easy to say "From my cold dead hands", but I don't know what I'd do. I'm saying this from the safety of a computer screen after all. 

Wars have been fought over a lot less.  It just depends on what kind of a culture we have.  The Old American culture would have fought tooth and nail.

Today's wussy culture, who knows.  People like comfort and we live in comfort.  If we ever go Venezuala style, there will be people praying to God they had weapons.  I think there is enough of the Old America left that people would hide their guns and they would fight. Talk to me again in 40 years and I'll probably be speaking a different language, the New America culture is too wussified-just give me some TV and food and I'm good. Take that away and now I'm mad, I just want my football and food.  

[Grunt]

19 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Most people probably will meekly hand them in when the time comes. I don't see people starting a mass resistance over this issue, and even if they do-their 12 gauge isn't going to do much against an M2A2 Bradley tank. 

Speaking for me only,  it's easy to say "From my cold dead hands", but I don't know what I'd do. I'm saying this from the safety of a computer screen after all. 

I don't believe there would be as many tanks on the street as one might think.