Guest Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 I've notices this phrase in a few locations in scripture. I'm wondering why it is used rather than simply translating them. The most oft quoted is "Lama sabachthani?" Matt 27:46 and Mark 15:34. This I can understand because it is a direct quote. And it is good to get the direct quote in the original language. But then there are others that it is simply a word. Three references in the Book of Mormon come to mind where a single word was translated. Rameumptum Deseret Liahona Now, I can understand that Rameumptom was a special object. And I get that the Liahona was a special object. So, for a one-of-a-kind object, it makes sense to use the original word as well as offer a translation as to the meaning. But "deseret"? Why was that so special? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, Carborendum said: But "deseret"? Why was that so special? So that someone could eventually write "In Our Lovely Deseret"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 "Interpreted" is different from "translated", at least in the Book of Mormon. (That's my take, anyway. Feel ever so free to disagree.) I am guessing that it's much like saying "Mayflower, which, being interpreted, is a ship for emigrants". That's not what "mayflower" means, but it is the correct interpretation of "Mayflower". Sunday21 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 19 hours ago, Vort said: "Interpreted" is different from "translated", at least in the Book of Mormon. (That's my take, anyway. Feel ever so free to disagree.) I am guessing that it's much like saying "Mayflower, which, being interpreted, is a ship for emigrants". That's not what "mayflower" means, but it is the correct interpretation of "Mayflower". So, are you saying that deseret may not actually be a translation, but rather, a "name" akin to a proper noun that was "interpreted" by Moroni as "honey bee"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted February 17, 2018 Report Share Posted February 17, 2018 4 hours ago, Carborendum said: So, are you saying that deseret may not actually be a translation, but rather, a "name" akin to a proper noun that was "interpreted" by Moroni as "honey bee"? Possibly. I'm suggesting that "deseret" and "Irreantum" and "Rameumptom" might not be foreign words for "honey bee", "exceedingly great waters", and "holy stand", but terms that were used to refer in some way to a honey bee, exceedingly great waters, or a holy stand. "Dairy Queen", which, being interpreted, means "soft-serve ice cream store". Something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 18, 2018 Report Share Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Vort said: Possibly. I'm suggesting that "deseret" and "Irreantum" and "Rameumptom" might not be foreign words for "honey bee", "exceedingly great waters", and "holy stand", but terms that were used to refer in some way to a honey bee, exceedingly great waters, or a holy stand. "Dairy Queen", which, being interpreted, means "soft-serve ice cream store". Something like that. Ok. But why mention such terms at all? For deseret, there didn't seem to be any need to even mention the original word whatever the literal meaning or whatnot. Simply saying,"And they brought honey bees with them..." would be the normal mode of translation. But if it were a direct quote or a proper noun or something along those lines, i could understand this methodology. But All these other items sure sound like proper nouns. But deseret? You speak a foreign language. Would you ever do that in translating unless there was some special meaning, like a proper noun or figure of speech or direct quote? I once had to explain to my brother the meaning of "l'o de l'amour" from Cyrano de Bergerac because of a play on words in French that didn't translate into English. Could it be so with deseret? It is actually dawning on me -- and I mean this in all sincerity -- perhaps @zil might be on to something. We do indeed use it for our symbol in many things. Perhaps it was meant to be so. 1) No other word that I can think of has such ancient roots is used so much. 2) All other words accompanying "being interpreted" seem to be direct quotes or proper nouns. I can't think of another that, by all appearances in context, appears to be a simple, common noun. 3) The beehive is a very useful symbol -- especially when we take into account my comments (many people's comments) regarding WORK being the "Crowning Principle of the Gospel." Maybe there's nothing to it. But it does seem awfully peculiar. Edited February 18, 2018 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted February 18, 2018 Report Share Posted February 18, 2018 4 minutes ago, Carborendum said: peculiar Well, you know, peculiar people and all... No idea. There are words that don't translate - concepts in one language that don't have something corresponding in another - but as you say, if it were that simple, they'd likely use a phrase to communicate the idea and call it good enough. Think of it as knowledge to look forward to - you can hand Moroni (or Mormon or Joseph Smith or whoever) you list of random questions and see what answers you get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 18, 2018 Report Share Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, zil said: you can hand Moroni (or Mormon or Joseph Smith or whoever) you list of random questions and see what answers you get. Well, when I'm allowed to do that, I'm sure such knowledge will already be understood with, you know, the veil and all (or the Urim and Thummim).. Edited February 18, 2018 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted February 18, 2018 Report Share Posted February 18, 2018 Just now, Carborendum said: Well, when I'm allowed to do that, I'm sure such knowledge will already be understood with, you know, the veil and all (or the Urim and Thummim.. Maybe. But you might want to keep a list, just in case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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