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    • Heather

      Mormon Hub Rules - Please be familiar with these rules before posting   04/17/08

        Any views expressed on Mormon Hub are independent of and do not represent the views of Mormon Hub, More Good Foundation, or Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Site Rules 1. Do not post, upload, or otherwise submit anything to the site that is derogatory towards The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its teachings, or its leaders. Anti-LDS Propaganda will not be tolerated anywhere. 2. Please be conscious of the fact that although Mormon Hub is aimed towards an LDS audience, that the membership of this site consists of friends from an array of different backgrounds, beliefs, and cultures. Please be respectful and courteous to all, and know that everyone who is willing to follow the Rules and Terms of Mormon Hub are welcome to participate and be a member of Mormon Hub. Keep in mind that anything posted, uploaded, or otherwise displayed on the site should be understandable to friends of other faiths as well as to members. Please define any LDS vocabulary that friends of other faiths may not understand (i.e. Mutual, Relief Society, and Deacon.) 3. Personal attacks, name calling, flaming, and judgments against other members will not be tolerated. 4. No bickering and nit-picking toward others. Realize that sometimes it is very difficult to be able to express how one feels through written words. Please be courteous and ask for a further explanation, rather then trying to attack and find holes in someone else's post. 5. No cursing or crude language. Any swearing, including filter skipping, will result in an automatic one week suspension. 6. Posting issues you have with a moderator or administrator anywhere on the site will not be allowed. Please follow the chain of authority if you have any concerns. Any such posts will be removed and the poster will be subject to the consequences of breaking the rules. List of site moderators Course of action that should be taken if you have a concern: - Send a message directly to the moderator you have a concern about. If you are unable to work out the problem then, - Send a message to the head moderators. - If after you have approached both avenues, you may then send a message to Heather; however know that Heather is very unlikely to over rule anything that has been sanctioned by the moderators and head moderators. 7. Multiple accounts are not allowed and will result in all accounts being banned from the site. 8. Please do not share any "true" or "faith promoting" stories, unless you can verify the source. 9. Do not post any copyrighted material, unless the copyright is owned by you. 10. Bigoted/racial/ethnic comments will not be tolerated. Political Neutrality Policy More Good Foundation, as a nonprofit foundation, must remain neutral with respect to partisan politics and candidate campaigns for public office. The foundation encourages its members and staff to be informed about political issues and to be engaged in civic life; however, it does not endorse or oppose any political parties, candidates, or platforms. Mormon Hub will allow political discussion, also long as all posts remain neutral with respect to partisan politics and candidate campaigns for public office. You may not use the site to show support, endorse, oppose or sanction any candidate. In addition, all posts must be respectful and sensitive to readers of all political beliefs and backgrounds. Any post that violates any of the above conditions will be dealt with according to the consequences of breaking the rules. As a non-profit organization, 501©3, we are governed by legal constraints relative to writing, blogging, or otherwise endorsing any candidate running for political office. The law states, in effect, that no one acting on behalf of the nonprofit can intervene directly or indirectly in the election process by endorsing a political candidate. Any post that speaks favorably about one candidate, even in a religious context, can be construed as indirect intervention in the election process. While journalists are presently exempt from this provision, bloggers and forum-members are not. 12. You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this site to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. 13. You will not use this site to solicit the sale of any product, service or website. You will not use this site to promote a money making venture or contest. If appropriate, you may post a link to your personal website or to your business on your profile, in your forum signature, and you make create one post in the web link section of the forum. Do not post any link or discuss any business, service, or website that violates any rule of Mormon Hub. Mormon Hub is not responsible for the content of any site linked on Mormon Hub. Consequences to these rules could result in the following, and are determined on a case by case basis. Anything that an Administrator or Moderator determines is more than just an infraction of the rules, will result in immediate banning from the site and/or legal action: First infraction will result in a warning and a message from a moderator on what rule was broken. Second infraction will result in a one week suspension followed by a two week moderator post approval Third infraction will result in banned from the site for good. Any topic, message, video, music, image, or other upload or submission to the site that breaks any rules will be deleted. Please remember that we are not responsible for anything posted or uploaded. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message or upload. We are not responsible for the contents of any message, video, image, post or upload. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Mormon Hub , More Good Foundation, or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact the Administration immediately by Private Message, Email, or Report a Post. We will make every effort to remove objectionable messages and uploads within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary. Mormon Hub Terms of Use Agreement January 8, 2008 Mormon Hub is a social networking service that allows Members to create unique personal profiles online in order to find and communicate with old and new friends. Mormon Hub refers to "Mormon Hub or its proprietors." The services offered by Mormon Hub ("Mormon Hub" or "we") include the Mormon Hub website (the "Mormon Hub Website"), the Mormon Hub Internet messaging service, and any other features, content, or applications offered from time to time by Mormon Hub in connection with the Mormon Hub Website (collectively, the "Mormon Hub Services"). The Mormon Hub Services are hosted in the U.S. This Terms of Use Agreement ("Agreement") sets forth the legally binding terms for your use of the Mormon Hub Services. By using the Mormon Hub Services, you agree to be bound by this Agreement, whether you are a "Visitor" (which means that you simply browse the Mormon Hub Website) or you are a "Member" (which means that you have registered with Mormon Hub). The term "User" refers to a Visitor or a Member. You are only authorized to use the Mormon Hub Services (regardless of whether your access or use is intended) if you agree to abide by all applicable laws and to this Agreement. Please read this Agreement carefully and save it. If you do not agree with it, you should leave the Mormon Hub Website and discontinue use of the Mormon Hub Services immediately. If you wish to become a Member, communicate with other Members and make use of the Mormon Hub Services, you must read this Agreement and indicate your acceptance during the Registration process. This Agreement includes Mormon Hub's policy for acceptable use of the Mormon Hub Services and Content posted on the Mormon Hub Website, your rights, obligations and restrictions regarding your use of the Mormon Hub Services and Mormon Hub's Privacy Policy. In order to participate in certain Mormon Hub Services, you may be notified that you are required to download software or content and/or agree to additional terms and conditions. Unless otherwise provided by the additional terms and conditions applicable to the Mormon Hub Services in which you choose to participate, those additional terms are hereby incorporated into this Agreement.  Mormon Hub may modify this Agreement from time to time and such modification shall be effective upon posting by Mormon Hub on the Mormon Hub Website. You agree to be bound to any changes to this Agreement when you use the Mormon Hub Services after any such modification is posted. It is therefore important that you review this Agreement regularly to ensure you are updated as to any changes. Please choose carefully the information you post on Mormon Hub and that you provide to other Users. You may NOT include any of the following information anywhere on Mormon Hub, including private messages: telephone numbers, street addresses, last names, and any photographs containing nudity, or obscene, lewd, excessively violent, harassing, sexually explicit or otherwise objectionable subject matter. Email addresses should NEVER be posted to the general public. Despite this prohibition, information provided by other Mormon Hub Members (for instance, in their Profile) may contain inaccurate, inappropriate, offensive or sexually explicit material, products or services, and Mormon Hub assumes no responsibility or liability for this material. If you become aware of misuse of the Mormon Hub Services by any person, please contact Mormon Hub or click on the "Report Inappropriate Content" link at the bottom of any Mormon Hub page. Mormon Hub reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to moderate, reject, refuse to post or remove any posting (including private messages) by you, or to restrict, suspend, or terminate your access to all or any part of the Mormon Hub Services at any time, for any or no reason, with or without prior notice, and without liability. Mormon Hub expressly reserves the right to remove your profile and/or restrict, suspend, or terminate your access to any part of Mormon Hub Services if Mormon Hub determines, in its sole discretion, that you pose a threat to Mormon Hub and/or its Users. Mormon Hub reserves the right to ask a member to change their username if it is found to be offensive or can be perceived as offensive. Due to the sacredness, this would include any usernames that include, Jesus, Christ, God, Lord, names of Prophets, General authorities etc. The names of personal or business websites, blogs, etc. to promote said sites is also prohibited. Using names of political figures or party affiliation is also prohibited. 1. Eligibility. Use of and Membership in the Mormon Hub Services is void where prohibited. By using the Mormon Hub Services, you represent and warrant that (a) all registration information you submit is truthful and accurate; ( B) you will maintain the accuracy of such information; © you are 14 years of age or older; and (d) your use of the Mormon Hub Services does not violate any applicable law or regulation. Your profile may be deleted and your Membership may be terminated without warning, if we believe that you are under 13 years of age. 2. Term. This Agreement shall remain in full force and effect while you use the Mormon Hub Services or are a Member. You may terminate your Membership at any time, for any reason, emailing an admin. Mormon Hub may terminate your Membership at any time, without warning. Even after Membership is terminated, this Agreement will remain in effect, including sections 5-17. 3. Password. When you sign up to become a Member, you will also be asked to choose a password. You are entirely responsible for maintaining the confidentiality of your password. You agree not to use the account, username, or password of another Member at any time or to disclose your password to any third party. You agree to notify Mormon Hub immediately if you suspect any unauthorized use of your account or access to your password. You are solely responsible for any and all use of your account. 4. Non-commercial Use by Members. The Mormon Hub Services are for the personal use of Members only and may not be used in connection with any commercial endeavors except those that are specifically endorsed or approved by Mormon Hub. Illegal and/or unauthorized use of the Mormon Hub Services, including collecting usernames and/or email addresses of Members by electronic or other means for the purpose of sending unsolicited email or unauthorized framing of or linking to the Mormon Hub Website is prohibited. Commercial advertisements, affiliate links, and other forms of solicitation may be removed from Member profiles without notice and may result in termination of Membership privileges. Appropriate legal action will be taken for any illegal or unauthorized use of the Mormon Hub Services. 5. Proprietary Rights in Content on Mormon Hub. Mormon Hub does not claim any ownership rights in the text, files, images, photos, video, sounds, musical works, works of authorship, or any other materials (collectively, "Content") that you post to the Mormon Hub Services. After posting your Content to the Mormon Hub Services, you continue to retain all ownership rights in such Content, and you continue to have the right to use your Content in any way you choose. By displaying or publishing ("posting") any Content on or through the Mormon Hub Services, you hereby grant to Mormon Hub a limited license to use, modify, publicly perform, publicly display, reproduce, and distribute such Content solely on and through the Mormon Hub Services.
      Without this license, Mormon Hub would be unable to provide the Mormon Hub Services. For example, without the right to modify Member Content, Mormon Hub would not be able to digitally compress music files that Members submit or otherwise format Content to satisfy technical requirements, and without the right to publicly perform Member Content, Mormon Hub could not allow Users to listen to music posted by Members. The license you grant to Mormon Hub is non-exclusive (meaning you are free to license your Content to anyone else in addition to Mormon Hub), fully-paid and royalty-free (meaning that Mormon Hub is not required to pay you for the use on the Mormon Hub Services of the Content that you post), sublicensable (so that Mormon Hub is able to use its affiliates and subcontractors such as Internet content delivery networks to provide the Mormon Hub Services), and worldwide (because the Internet and the Mormon Hub Services are global in reach). This license will terminate at the time you remove your Content from the Mormon Hub Services. The license does not grant Mormon Hub the right to sell your Content, nor does the license grant Mormon Hub the right to distribute your Content outside of the Mormon Hub Services. You represent and warrant that: (i) you own the Content posted by you on or through the Mormon Hub Services or otherwise have the right to grant the license set forth in this section, and (ii) the posting of your Content on or through the Mormon Hub Services does not violate the privacy rights, publicity rights, copyrights, contract rights or any other rights of any person. You agree to pay for all royalties, fees, and any other monies owing any person by reason of any Content posted by you to or through the LDS.Mormon Hub Services. The Mormon Hub Services contain Content of Mormon Hub ("Mormon Hub Content"). Mormon Hub Content is protected by copyright, trademark, patent, trade secret and other laws, and Mormon Hub owns and retains all rights in the Mormon Hub Content and the Mormon Hub Services. Mormon Hub hereby grants you a limited, revocable, nonsublicensable license to reproduce and display the Mormon Hub Content (excluding any software code) solely for your personal use in connection with viewing the Mormon Hub Website and using the Mormon Hub Services. The Mormon Hub Services contain Content of Users and other Mormon Hub licensors. Except for Content posted by you, you may not copy, modify, translate, publish, broadcast, transmit, distribute, perform, display, or sell any Content appearing on or through the Mormon Hub Services.   6. Content Posted. Mormon Hub may delete any Content that in the sole judgment of Mormon Hub violates this Agreement or which may be offensive, illegal or violate the rights, harm, or threaten the safety of any person. Mormon Hub assumes no responsibility for monitoring the Mormon Hub Services for inappropriate Content or conduct. If at any time Mormon Hub chooses, in its sole discretion, to monitor the Mormon Hub Services, Mormon Hub nonetheless assumes no responsibility for the Content, no obligation to modify or remove any inappropriate Content, and no responsibility for the conduct of the User submitting any such Content. You are solely responsible for the Content that you post on or through any of the Mormon Hub Services, and any material or information that you transmit to other Members and for your interactions with other Users. Mormon Hub does not endorse and has no control over the Content. Content is not necessarily reviewed by Mormon Hub prior to posting and does not necessarily reflect the opinions or policies of Mormon Hub. Mormon Hub makes no warranties, express or implied, as to the Content or to the accuracy and reliability of the Content or any material or information that you transmit to other Members.   7. Content/Activity Prohibited. The following is a partial list of the kind of Content that is illegal or prohibited to post on or through the Mormon Hub Services.Mormon Hub reserves the right to investigate and take appropriate legal action against anyone who, in Mormon Hub's sole discretion, violates this provision, including without limitation, removing the offending communication from the Mormon Hub Services and terminating the Membership of such violators. Prohibited Content includes, but is not limited to Content that, in the sole discretion of Mormon Hub: is patently offensive and promotes racism, bigotry, hatred or physical harm of any kind against any group or individual; harasses or advocates harassment of another person; exploits people in a sexual or violent manner; contains nudity, violence, or offensive subject matter or contains a link to an adult website; solicits personal information from anyone; provides any telephone numbers, street addresses, last names, URLs or email addresses; promotes information that you know is false or misleading or promotes illegal activities or conduct that is abusive, threatening, obscene, defamatory or libelous; promotes an illegal or unauthorized copy of another person's copyrighted work, such as providing pirated computer programs or links to them, providing information to circumvent manufacture-installed copy-protect devices, or providing pirated music or links to pirated music files; involves the transmission of "junk mail," "chain letters," or unsolicited mass mailing, instant messaging, "spimming," or "spamming"; contains restricted or password only access pages or hidden pages or images (those not linked to or from another accessible page); furthers or promotes any criminal activity or enterprise or provides instructional information about illegal activities including, but not limited to making or buying illegal weapons, violating someone's privacy, or providing or creating computer viruses; solicits passwords or personal identifying information for commercial or unlawful purposes from other Users; involves commercial activities and/or sales without our prior written consent such as contests, sweepstakes, barter, advertising, or pyramid schemes; includes a photograph of another person that you have posted without that person's consent; or uses sexually suggestive imagery or any other unfair, misleading or deceptive Content intended to draw traffic to the profile.
      The following is a partial list of the kind of activity that is illegal or prohibited on the Mormon Hub Website and through your use of the Mormon Hub Services. Mormon Hub reserves the right to investigate and take appropriate legal action against anyone who, in Mormon Hub's sole discretion, violates this provision, including without limitation, reporting you to law enforcement authorities. Prohibited activity includes, but is not limited to: criminal or tortuous activity, including child pornography, fraud, trafficking in obscene material, drug dealing, gambling, harassment, stalking, spamming, spimming, sending of viruses or other harmful files, copyright infringement, patent infringement, or theft of trade secrets; advertising to, or solicitation of, any Member to buy or sell any products or services through the Mormon Hub Services. You may not transmit any chain letters or junk email to other Members. It is also a violation of these rules to use any information obtained from the Mormon Hub Services in order to contact, advertise to, solicit, or sell to any Member without their prior explicit consent. In order to protect our Members from such advertising or solicitation, Mormon Hub reserves the right to restrict the number of emails which a Member may send to other Members in any 24-hour period to a number which Mormon Hub deems appropriate in its sole discretion. If you breach this Agreement and send unsolicited bulk email, instant messages or other unsolicited communications of any kind through the Mormon Hub Services, you acknowledge that you will have caused substantial harm to Mormon Hub, but that the amount of such harm would be extremely difficult to ascertain. As a reasonable estimation of such harm, you agree to pay Mormon Hub $50 for each such unsolicited email or other unsolicited communication you send through the Mormon Hub Services; covering or obscuring the banner advertisements on your personal profile page, or any Mormon Hub page via HTML/CSS or any other means; any automated use of the system, such as using scripts to add friends or send comments or messages; interfering with, disrupting, or creating an undue burden on the Mormon Hub Services or the networks or services connected to the Mormon Hub Services; attempting to impersonate another Member or person; copying the code for your Mormon Hub Player and embedding it into other profiles or asking other Members to embed it into their profiles; using the account, username, or password of another Member at any time or disclosing your password to any third party or permitting any third party to access your account; selling or otherwise transferring your profile; using any information obtained from the Mormon Hub Services in order to harass, abuse, or harm another person; displaying an advertisement on your profile, or accepting payment or anything of value from a third person in exchange for your performing any commercial activity on or through the Mormon Hub Services on behalf of that person, such as placing commercial content on your profile, posting blogs or bulletins with a commercial purpose, selecting a profile with a commercial purpose as one of your "Top" friends, or sending private messages with a commercial purpose; or using the Mormon Hub Services in a manner inconsistent with any and all applicable laws and regulations.   8. 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    • rpframe

      IMPORTANT!! -- Login Issues   09/12/17

      TL;DR; In order to fix login issues, a lot of people will have to reset their password. As of now, if you are unable to login, please attempt a "Forgot Password"/"Password Reset" (check your spam folder) and if that doesn't work then feel free to Contact Us, for help and please check back on this post for any status updates and FAQs as we go through this process. FAQ:
      [Reserved Space]
      Firstly, I'd like to apologize on behalf of MormonHub for the frustration of the login system. There is a lot of cool things we could do with the login system, and having the logins synced up between our forum system and our front end system has been nice, but for multiple reasons (not just the current login issues), we have decided to move back to the earlier login system. While I would love to be able to migrate everyone's current passwords back, but the systems are just not compatible that way. So a large number of users will need to do a password reset. We realize that we forced everyone to do this on the move to the new system, and we sincerely apologize to everyone that will have to do it again. The Login System has now been swapped over. Give us a little bit of time to work out kinks in the system (will post updates here). If you are unable to login anymore, then please perform a password reset (check spam folder) and if that fails and we don't have any acknowledgement of problems on this post (No known problems at this time), then feel free to contact us (keeping in mind that there are a lot of you and very few of us).
Doorman

Welfare: Church and Government

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So I have been wrestling with this for a long time now. I’m a full time college student, married, first kid on the way. My wife and I love pretty frugally. 

Currently we have quite a bit of money, but with the baby coming rather soon, counseling my wife and I are attending, medical tests I need to get done eventually (been putting off because of a lack of money), we will run out of money pretty quick.

I work full time currently and can’t really feasibly add more hours. 

We currently have WIC and Medicaid... this is where my wrestle comes in. I have always believed strongly in self reliance. Financial difficulty has always been my biggest fear and we are creeping up to it.

So Thoughts concerning government and church aid. What is the difference? Why does government have such a negative connotation. I know Ezra Taft Bensen and many other church leaders have stated pretty clearly that we are not to take government handouts... how does this differ from church welfare?

I always feel uncomfortable when I think of our WIP and Medicaid... should we get rid of it?

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Speaking as a conservative, I'm totally fine with you getting WIC and Medicaid.  And I'm also totally fine with your attitude about it.  You seem quite unhappy that you are not self-reliant, and it sounds like such unhappiness will only drive you to greater efforts to reach financial independence.    Another way of looking at it, is you'll be paying far more into the govt than you could ever possibly hope to get out of it, so kudos to you for availing yourself of (hopefully) short term help at this stage in your life. 

Speaking as a Mormon - church welfare is a double-sided blessing source.  It is there to help members become self-reliant, and it is there to provide opportunities for individuals to provide service and help the poor and needy.  Both sides obtain blessings.  

You are a starving college student - it sounds like you're fighting the good fight.  In a few years, you'll look back on these frugal struggling times, and see how it helped you grow.

Bless you and your wife and your soon-to-be baby!

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45 minutes ago, Doorman said:

So I have been wrestling with this for a long time now. I’m a full time college student, married, first kid on the way. My wife and I love pretty frugally. 

Currently we have quite a bit of money, but with the baby coming rather soon, counseling my wife and I are attending, medical tests I need to get done eventually (been putting off because of a lack of money), we will run out of money pretty quick.

I work full time currently and can’t really feasibly add more hours. 

We currently have WIC and Medicaid... this is where my wrestle comes in. I have always believed strongly in self reliance. Financial difficulty has always been my biggest fear and we are creeping up to it.

So Thoughts concerning government and church aid. What is the difference? Why does government have such a negative connotation. I know Ezra Taft Bensen and many other church leaders have stated pretty clearly that we are not to take government handouts... how does this differ from church welfare?

I always feel uncomfortable when I think of our WIP and Medicaid... should we get rid of it?

No, use Medicaid if you need it.  You don't need to feel guilty if you are working hard and trying to be self sufficient.  In fact, I would advise against getting rid of Medicaid - that would hurt your family at a time you probably don't need more adversity.

I don't think social programs that help people help themselves (e.g., Medicaid, tax cuts, student loans, etc.) are a problem.  The problems are the social programs that encourage idleness and dependence and displace work (e.g., European style welfare, where it pays more in some cases to accept the welfare than get a minimum wage job and people just hang out sometimes for decades, watching TV ten hours a day).  I think President Benson is talking about the latter (and is absolutely right).

There is a huge difference between social programs that encourage hard working honest people and those that encourage freeloading and idleness at the expense of the public.

Edited by DoctorLemon

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Yes, we all should strive to be self-reliant.  But fact of the matter is at some times we might need help.  You & your wife should strive to provide for your family and doing things like working a job, getting an education, & being frugal with your money.  But if that's not enough, getting temporary help is not a bad thing.  The point of the temporary help is not for you two to lazy around forever, but to keep being frugal, get a good job, and help out the next generation. 

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A lot of my fear comes from statements like this from Ezra Taft Benson

”The chief weapon used by the federal government to achieve this “equality” is the system of transfer payments. This means that the federal governments collects from one income group and transfer payments to another by the tax system. These payments are made in the form of social security benefits, Medicare and Medicaid, and food stamps, to name a few. Today the cost of such programs has been going in the hole at the rate of 12 billion dollars a year; and, with increased benefits and greater numbers of recipients, even though the tax base has been increased we will have larger deficits in the future.

...

Are we part of the problem or part of the solution?

Recently a letter came to my office, accompanied by an article from your Daily Universe, on the matter of BYU students taking food stamps. The query of the letter was: “What is the attitude of the Church on taking food stamps?” The Church’s view on this is well known. We stand for independence, thrift, and abolition of the dole. This was emphasized in the Saturday morning welfare meeting of general conference. “The aim of the Church is to help the people to help themselves. Work is to be re-enthroned as the ruling principle of the lives of our Church membership” (Heber J. Grant, Conference Report, October 1936, p. 3).

When you accept food stamps, you accept an unearned handout that other working people are paying for. You do not earn food stamps or welfare payments. Every individual who accepts an unearned government gratuity is just as morally culpable as the individual who takes a handout from taxpayers’ money to pay his heat, electricity, or rent. There is no difference in principle between them. You did not come to this University to become a welfare recipient. You came here to be a light to the world, a light to society—to save society and to help to save this nation, the Lord’s base of operations in these latter days, to ameliorate man’s social conditions. You are not here to be a parasite or freeloader. The price you pay for “something for nothing” may be more than you can afford. Do not rationalize your acceptance of government gratuities by saying, “I am a contributing taxpayer too.” By doing this you contribute to the problem which is leading this nation to financial insolvency.

Society may rationalize immorality, but God cannot condone it. Society sponsors Sabbathbreaking, but the Church counsels otherwise. Society profanes the name of Deity, but Latter-day Saints cannot countenance it. Because society condones a dole, which demoralizes man and weakens his God-given initiative and character, can we?”

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/ezra-taft-benson_vision-hope-youth-zion/

Thoughts? Anyone care to further interpret the words of a Prophet of God? ;)

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@Doorman, the way the system is currently set up, things such as WIC are part of what you pay taxes for. Not taking them on principle when you qualify for them is like not taking Social Security on principle when you qualify -- it's a useless gesture.

FWIW, the Church no longer counsels people to avoid government welfare and other such handouts, and hasn't for quite a while. If you're going to become a permanent welfare recipient, then as a taxpayer I would encourage you not to do it. But if you're starting out and things are tight -- like it or not, that's the system we have, and I think it's unwise not to take advantage.

I'm not trying to be cynical, just clear-eyed. It is not hypocritical to say that the system is wrong and messed up, and should be changed in this way and that, while at the same time exercising the benefits that the government is handing out.

As for Church aid, talk to your bishop. He may tell you "no" (or "not yet"), which is fine. Doesn't hurt to counsel with him. He may be able to give you some valuable information.

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25 minutes ago, Doorman said:

A lot of my fear comes from statements like this from Ezra Taft Benson

”The chief weapon used by the federal government to achieve this “equality” is the system of transfer payments. This means that the federal governments collects from one income group and transfer payments to another by the tax system. These payments are made in the form of social security benefits, Medicare and Medicaid, and food stamps, to name a few. Today the cost of such programs has been going in the hole at the rate of 12 billion dollars a year; and, with increased benefits and greater numbers of recipients, even though the tax base has been increased we will have larger deficits in the future.

...

Are we part of the problem or part of the solution?

Recently a letter came to my office, accompanied by an article from your Daily Universe, on the matter of BYU students taking food stamps. The query of the letter was: “What is the attitude of the Church on taking food stamps?” The Church’s view on this is well known. We stand for independence, thrift, and abolition of the dole. This was emphasized in the Saturday morning welfare meeting of general conference. “The aim of the Church is to help the people to help themselves. Work is to be re-enthroned as the ruling principle of the lives of our Church membership” (Heber J. Grant, Conference Report, October 1936, p. 3).

When you accept food stamps, you accept an unearned handout that other working people are paying for. You do not earn food stamps or welfare payments. Every individual who accepts an unearned government gratuity is just as morally culpable as the individual who takes a handout from taxpayers’ money to pay his heat, electricity, or rent. There is no difference in principle between them. You did not come to this University to become a welfare recipient. You came here to be a light to the world, a light to society—to save society and to help to save this nation, the Lord’s base of operations in these latter days, to ameliorate man’s social conditions. You are not here to be a parasite or freeloader. The price you pay for “something for nothing” may be more than you can afford. Do not rationalize your acceptance of government gratuities by saying, “I am a contributing taxpayer too.” By doing this you contribute to the problem which is leading this nation to financial insolvency.

Society may rationalize immorality, but God cannot condone it. Society sponsors Sabbathbreaking, but the Church counsels otherwise. Society profanes the name of Deity, but Latter-day Saints cannot countenance it. Because society condones a dole, which demoralizes man and weakens his God-given initiative and character, can we?”

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/ezra-taft-benson_vision-hope-youth-zion/

Thoughts? Anyone care to further interpret the words of a Prophet of God? ;)

Yeah, they are talking about the "dole", which refers to long term welfare benefits for people who have no interest in working.  I wish you could spend some time in Europe and you would see what I mean - people who spend 30 years and let someone else take care of them so they don't have to work even when they are perfectly able to work.  This is very far from Medicaid (helping hard working families deal with an occasional medical bill without ruining them) or even unemployment compensation (temporary aid to help families in the event of job loss).

I think America these days has the dole under control due to welfare reform in 1996 but things are just nuts in Europe, where some of those countries have debt problems that make America's look like a walk in the park due to throwing middle class level benefits to anyone who doesn't want to work for any reason.

I don't know how food stamps back in the late 1930s compares to TANF today, but I could see food stamps described by Grant in some ways being analgous to European welfare - handouts that encourage idleness by taking care of every need so work becomes unnecessary altogether.

Edited by DoctorLemon

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I believe President Benson’s advice represented the word and will of the Lord, tailored to the audience Benson was addressing.  I further believe that underlying Benson’s advice were a number of principles that are timeless and are worth remembering even after the Church’s formal position has evolved in response to changing social and political conditions.

That said, the Church no longer opposes every instance of receiving government aid.  See the June 2017 “Ensign” article on “What I Learned While Unemployed”, which includes lining up state heath insurance and unemployment benefits as among the recommended “First Steps”.

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Welcome, @Doorman!

IMO, if you are employed (or paying any other form of tax), the government is taking money from you and your employer to pay for these kinds of programs.  Were the government not taking your money for these kinds of programs, you would have money in your pocket you could use for your own needs.  Therefore, if you need the programs and take advantage of them, you're just taking something that would have been yours had the government stayed out of it.  (This is my simplified perspective.)  Note that I'm paying into this too (no choice in the matter) and don't need these programs, so you're welcome to my share. :)

Time to resume FHE now...

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3 hours ago, Doorman said:

So I have been wrestling with this for a long time now. I’m a full time college student, married, first kid on the way. My wife and I love pretty frugally. 

Currently we have quite a bit of money, but with the baby coming rather soon, counseling my wife and I are attending, medical tests I need to get done eventually (been putting off because of a lack of money), we will run out of money pretty quick.

I work full time currently and can’t really feasibly add more hours. 

We currently have WIC and Medicaid... this is where my wrestle comes in. I have always believed strongly in self reliance. Financial difficulty has always been my biggest fear and we are creeping up to it.

So Thoughts concerning government and church aid. What is the difference? Why does government have such a negative connotation. I know Ezra Taft Bensen and many other church leaders have stated pretty clearly that we are not to take government handouts... how does this differ from church welfare?

I always feel uncomfortable when I think of our WIP and Medicaid... should we get rid of it?

ETB was a conspiracy theorist and didnt like any part of anything resembling socialism which wss the main reason he was against any government help.

Theres nothing wrong with being on medicaid and WIC. They arent evil conspiracies.

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54 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

ETB was a conspiracy theorist and didnt like any part of anything resembling socialism which wss the main reason he was against any government help.

Ezra Taft Benson was a prophet of God and a highly intelligent man with intimate familiarity with the workings of governments on the federal and international level. I'd say he was very well qualified to make judgments about possible conspiracies. I would think that any thoughtful person would seriously consider his ideas on any such subject, rather than dismiss them out of hand with an impatient wave and a derogatory appeal to conspiracy-theory types.

56 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Theres nothing wrong with being on medicaid and WIC. They arent evil conspiracies.

Do you make this judgment based on Benson-like experience and insight into such matters? Or are you simply offering an internet opinion that plays along the popular conspiracy-eye-rolling line?

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The issue really isn't with the recipient, other than I feel government programs don't do enough to improve the future of people, and tend to lead to long term dependency.

But the bigger issue is that the funds for government programs are taken by force (via taxes), and not through charity.  Church funds come from willing members who want to help you, and that makes a difference both in their attitude toward the recipient, and to your future, knowing that something like fast offerings may be helping members of your own ward.  That's the true meaning of charity, and love for your fellow man. Taxation does not teach love, but actually fosters resentment.

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15 hours ago, Doorman said:

So I have been wrestling with this for a long time now. I’m a full time college student, married, first kid on the way. My wife and I love pretty frugally. 

Currently we have quite a bit of money, but with the baby coming rather soon, counseling my wife and I are attending, medical tests I need to get done eventually (been putting off because of a lack of money), we will run out of money pretty quick.

I work full time currently and can’t really feasibly add more hours. 

We currently have WIC and Medicaid... this is where my wrestle comes in. I have always believed strongly in self reliance. Financial difficulty has always been my biggest fear and we are creeping up to it.

So Thoughts concerning government and church aid. What is the difference? Why does government have such a negative connotation. I know Ezra Taft Bensen and many other church leaders have stated pretty clearly that we are not to take government handouts... how does this differ from church welfare?

I always feel uncomfortable when I think of our WIP and Medicaid... should we get rid of it?

Your bishop will probably advise you to get government assistance if you need it.

The Church discourages the dole, which is getting something for nothing and remaining idle. This is the kind of assistance President Benson and others condemned. However, if you have been a self-sufficient, productive citizen, paying taxes, etc., then Medicaid and WIC are a form of insurance benefit that you contributed to when times were better, and that you will continue to support when things get better again. No shame in that. This could extend to parents having paid their taxes for years so that their children might draw the needed benefits should tough times come.

The Church welfare system is for typically temporary or short-term needs that cannot be met in any other way, and often requires some action on the recipient's part to become self-sufficient.

The concern over assistance isn't about whether it is government- or church-provided, but about whether accepting it contributes to pride, idleness, entitlement, etc. There was a time when government benefits were seen as a devilish substitute for individual, family and church preparedness systems for those very reasons. But the Church has been very successful in teaching correct welfare principles, and so the members can use government aid as a temporary resource and not adopt as a lifestyle. LDS Self-Reliance Services and the "My Path to Self Reliance" are good examples of how the Church gets people past government assistance on a reasonable timetable. https://www.lds.org/topics/pef-self-reliance?lang=eng&old=true

 

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15 hours ago, DoctorLemon said:

I don't think social programs that help people help themselves (e.g., Medicaid, tax cuts, student loans, etc.) are a problem. 

Just want to make a correction...  Tax Cuts is not a social program.

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14 hours ago, Doorman said:

Thoughts? Anyone care to further interpret the words of a Prophet of God? ;)

Yes, follow the living prophet. Their inspired words are all perfectly legitimate, and the more tailored they are for their times, the more foreign they may seem to those from another era.

There are those who thrive on the spirit of contention and who will strive to misrepresent any changes over time to be the consequence of a personal fault in the LDS leadership or doctrine.

 

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15 hours ago, Doorman said:

So Thoughts concerning government and church aid. What is the difference? Why does government have such a negative connotation.  I know Ezra Taft Bensen and many other church leaders have stated pretty clearly that we are not to take government handouts... how does this differ from church welfare?

The difference, of course, is one is run by the Church - hence, operating under the inspiration of God - while the other is run by the government - operating under the management and design of people not necessarily inspired by God and subject to human weaknesses and corruption.

Government gets a negative connotation because welfare as designed by government is not primarily designed to help people but primarily designed to gain votes at the expense of taxpayers who has little control of where their taxes go.  Now, there are government programs (usually at the local/State level) that are run efficiently - these are programs who measure their success by the people who successfully get OFF of the system rather than the people who get on the system.

Dr. Ben Carson is a very thoughtful and deliberate type of person.  That character trait is excellent for governance but, unfortunately, it makes him appear to move like a giant tanker ship in a sea of molasses.  He was appointed as HUD Secretary early last year.  There has been no ripples in HUD that was significant enough to catch the eyes of the media so we just gone and forgot about Dr. Carson.  I guess it's a good thing that he was just left alone to do whatever he needed to do without the harpies screeching at him because Carson's Department is coming up with shockingly AMAZING things, albeit in turtle-pace.  So, there's a social program that has hope of being a good one in the near future.  But, of course, that's the problem with government... it's only as good as Dr. Carson is at the helm... eventually, he's going to be replaced and who knows what will happen then.  With the Church, it doesn't matter who is the Prophet... Church welfare will always be run in the manner God designed for it to run, being a source of comfort to some and an opportunity to serve for others.

  

15 hours ago, Doorman said:

I always feel uncomfortable when I think of our WIP and Medicaid... should we get rid of it?

It's good that you're uncomfortable with it.  But before you get rid of WIC and Medicaid, you have to know how you're going to provide for your wife and kid without WIC and Medicaid.  The righteous design of charity is to look first and foremost to your family for assistance.  If they do not have the resources to help, then you go to your community - this can be your church or the government.  This usually means you go have a chat with your bishop to seek the Lord's counsel on what kind of assistance you need - the bishop's storehouse, government welfare, or both.

Good luck.

 

 

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Lets back into the OP's problem. Full time college student that's great, but then the OP states "I'm married" and "I have a kid on the way" Whoa stop. This is how we get into these tight spots.  We put the carriage before the horse. 

Look OP the ship has sailed, and you need the Government to step in and help out. It is what it is and you have an obligation to your wife and baby to make sure that they have what they need.  

I would question is this God's plan for our youth? Get married and have a kid without viable means to support them? 

Edited by omegaseamaster75

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6 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Lets back into the OP's problem. Full time college student that's great, but then the OP states "I'm married" and "I have a kid on the way" Whoa stop. This is how we get into these tight spots.  We put the carriage before the horse. 

Look OP the ship has sailed, and you need the Government to step in and help out. It is what it is and you have an obligation to your wife and baby to make sure that they have what they need.  

I would question is this God's plan for our youth? Get married and have a kid without viable means to support them? 

I have told tens of thousands of young folks that when they marry they should not wait for children until they have finished their schooling and financial desires. Marriage is basically for the family, and when people have found their proper companions there should be no long delay. They should live together normally and let the children come.

  • Spencer W Kimball

 

 

Other quotes:

 

 

“I am offended by the sophistry that the only lot of the Latter-day Saint woman is to be barefoot and pregnant. It’s a clever phrase, but it’s false. Of course we believe in children. The Lord has told us to multiply and replenish the earth that we might have joy in our posterity, and there is no greater joy than the joy that comes of happy children in good families. But he did not designate the number, nor has the Church. That is a sacred matter left to the couple and the Lord. The official statement of the Church includes this language: ‘Husbands must be considerate of their wives, who have the greater responsibility not only of bearing children but of caring for them through childhood, and should help them conserve their health and strength. Married couples should exercise self-control in all of their relationships. They should seek inspiration from the Lord in meeting their marital challenges and rearing their children according to the teachings of the gospel’ ( General Handbook of Instructions [1983], p. 77)” ( Cornerstones of a Happy Home, 6).

 Like this

 Quote

 

"When to have a child and how many children to have are private decisions to be made between a husband and wife and the Lord. These are sacred decisions--decisions that should be made with sincere prayer and acted on with great faith." -Elder Anderson

 

And this too

 

“Tomorrow when I repeat the phrases that will bind you for eternity, I shall say the same impressive words that the Lord said to that handsome youth and his lovely bride in the Garden of Eden: ‘Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth.’ . . .

 

“. . . You came to get for yourself a mortal body that could become perfected, immortalized, and you understood that you were to act in partnership with God in providing bodies for other spirits. . . . And so you will not postpone parenthood. There will be rationalists who will name to you numerous reasons for postponement. Of course, it will be harder to get your college degrees or your financial start with a family, but strength like yours will be undaunted in the face of difficult obstacles. Have your family as the Lord intended. Of course it is expensive, but you will find a way, and besides, it is often those children who grow up with responsibility and hardships who carry on the world’s work"

 

he first commandment given to man was to multiply and replenish the earth with children. That commandment has never been altered, modified, or cancelled. The Lord did not say to multiply and replenish the earth if it is convenient, or if you are wealthy, or after you have gotten your schooling, or when there is peace on earth, or until you have four children. The Bible says, ‘Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: . . . Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them. . . .’ ( Ps. 127:3, 5 .) We believe God is glorified by having numerous children and a program of perfection for them. So also will God glorify that husband and wife who have a large posterity and who have tried to raise them up in righteousness” (Ezra Taft Benson in Conference Report, Apr. 1969, 12).

 

AND

 

"Supreme happiness in marriage is governed considerably by a primary factor—that of the bearing and rearing of children. Too many young people set their minds, determining they will not marry or have children until they are more secure, until the military service period is over; until the college degree is secured; until the occupation is more well-defined; until the debts are paid; or until it is more convenient. They have forgotten that the first commandment is to ‘be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it.’ ( Genesis 1:28 .) And so brides continue their employment and husbands encourage it, and contraceptives are used to prevent conception. Relatives and friends and even mothers sometimes encourage birth control for their young newlyweds. But the excuses are many, mostly weak. The wife is not robust; the family budget will not feed extra mouths; or the expense of the doctor, hospital, and other incidentals is too great; it will disturb social life; it would prevent two salaries; and so abnormal living prevents the birth of children. The Church cannot approve nor condone the measures which so greatly limit the family” ( Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 328–29).

I would say yes... it is Gods plan.

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Is it also Gods plan to be dependant on the Government for our needs? @Fether

Because the one of the same guys you quote also said this (previously posted)

When you accept food stamps, you accept an unearned handout that other working people are paying for. You do not earn food stamps or welfare payments. Every individual who accepts an unearned government gratuity is just as morally culpable as the individual who takes a handout from taxpayers’ money to pay his heat, electricity, or rent. There is no difference in principle between them. You did not come to this University to become a welfare recipient. You came here to be a light to the world, a light to society—to save society and to help to save this nation, the Lord’s base of operations in these latter days, to ameliorate man’s social conditions. You are not here to be a parasite or freeloader. The price you pay for “something for nothing” may be more than you can afford. Do not rationalize your acceptance of government gratuities by saying, “I am a contributing taxpayer too.” By doing this you contribute to the problem which is leading this nation to financial insolvency.

Society may rationalize immorality, but God cannot condone it. Society sponsors Sabbathbreaking, but the Church counsels otherwise. Society profanes the name of Deity, but Latter-day Saints cannot countenance it. Because society condones a dole, which demoralizes man and weakens his God-given initiative and character, can we?”

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/ezra-taft-benson_vision-hope-youth-zion/

Edited by omegaseamaster75

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12 hours ago, Vort said:

Ezra Taft Benson was a prophet of God and a highly intelligent man with intimate familiarity with the workings of governments on the federal and international level. I'd say he was very well qualified to make judgments about possible conspiracies. I would think that any thoughtful person would seriously consider his ideas on any such subject, rather than dismiss them out of hand with an impatient wave and a derogatory appeal to conspiracy-theory types.

Do you make this judgment based on Benson-like experience and insight into such matters? Or are you simply offering an internet opinion that plays along the popular conspiracy-eye-rolling line?

ETB was a great prophet. But, his distaste for social programs by the government went a bit overboard. If one thinks about it, any and all tax expense is a social construct. So, should we not pay taxes at all? We all recieve benefits of our tax system, they are all social constructs. Many of his conspiracy theories died with him. Im not saying everything he belueved in was wrong, I support the majority of his views on welfare and self reliance. But, food stamps, wic, etc, are not evil counterfeits to the Lords welfare system.

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Just now, Rob Osborn said:

ETB was a great prophet. But, his distaste for social programs by the government went a bit overboard. If one thinks about it, any and all tax expense is a social construct. So, should we not pay taxes at all? We all recieve benefits of our tax system, they are all social constructs. Many of his conspiracy theories died with him. Im not saying everything he belueved in was wrong, I support the majority of his views on welfare and self reliance. But, food stamps, wic, etc, are not evil counterfeits to the Lords welfare system.

And I don't think that they are, however there seems to be plenty of argument for getting married and popping out kids right away with no viable means to support them.

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10 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Get married and have a kid without viable means to support them? 

And my dad would testify that had he and my mom waited to have kids until he had a better job, the Lord would never have blessed him with the career opportunities he had.  It was an act of obedience and leap of faith - and this was not his interpretation of past events, but his testimony, confirmed to him by the Spirit, of how the Lord operated in their lives back then.

And just like the blessings which come from tithes and offerings vary from person to person, so do the blessings from following any other commandment.  Hence, while I might advise a couple on things to consider and plan for, I certainly would not tell them absolutes like "don't have kids" until you've got a job paying at least X, and have Y reserve in the bank or some such.  They should consider reality, the counsel of prophets, and take their choices to the Lord and decide for themselves.

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1 minute ago, zil said:

And my dad would testify that had he and my mom waited to have kids until he had a better job, the Lord would never have blessed him with the career opportunities he had.  It was an act of obedience and leap of faith - and this was not his interpretation of past events, but his testimony, confirmed to him by the Spirit, of how the Lord operated in their lives back then.

 

We all like to loudly proclaim the exception.  If we are honest with ourselves this is not the rule.

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7 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Is it also Gods plan to be dependant on the Government for our needs? @Fether

Now you are making this an argument of opposingmorals.

God wants us to have children, to not wait for education and career goals or to wait till we are “secure”. Read the words of the prophets.

The only advice they give beyond that is to pray and ask God what you should do. You are in no place to council anyone but yourself as to when you should have children.

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1 minute ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

We all like to loudly proclaim the exception.  If we are honest with ourselves this is not the rule.

Your kicking against the pricks omega.

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