Doorman

Welfare: Church and Government

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So I have been wrestling with this for a long time now. I’m a full time college student, married, first kid on the way. My wife and I love pretty frugally. 

Currently we have quite a bit of money, but with the baby coming rather soon, counseling my wife and I are attending, medical tests I need to get done eventually (been putting off because of a lack of money), we will run out of money pretty quick.

I work full time currently and can’t really feasibly add more hours. 

We currently have WIC and Medicaid... this is where my wrestle comes in. I have always believed strongly in self reliance. Financial difficulty has always been my biggest fear and we are creeping up to it.

So Thoughts concerning government and church aid. What is the difference? Why does government have such a negative connotation. I know Ezra Taft Bensen and many other church leaders have stated pretty clearly that we are not to take government handouts... how does this differ from church welfare?

I always feel uncomfortable when I think of our WIP and Medicaid... should we get rid of it?

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Speaking as a conservative, I'm totally fine with you getting WIC and Medicaid.  And I'm also totally fine with your attitude about it.  You seem quite unhappy that you are not self-reliant, and it sounds like such unhappiness will only drive you to greater efforts to reach financial independence.    Another way of looking at it, is you'll be paying far more into the govt than you could ever possibly hope to get out of it, so kudos to you for availing yourself of (hopefully) short term help at this stage in your life. 

Speaking as a Mormon - church welfare is a double-sided blessing source.  It is there to help members become self-reliant, and it is there to provide opportunities for individuals to provide service and help the poor and needy.  Both sides obtain blessings.  

You are a starving college student - it sounds like you're fighting the good fight.  In a few years, you'll look back on these frugal struggling times, and see how it helped you grow.

Bless you and your wife and your soon-to-be baby!

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45 minutes ago, Doorman said:

So I have been wrestling with this for a long time now. I’m a full time college student, married, first kid on the way. My wife and I love pretty frugally. 

Currently we have quite a bit of money, but with the baby coming rather soon, counseling my wife and I are attending, medical tests I need to get done eventually (been putting off because of a lack of money), we will run out of money pretty quick.

I work full time currently and can’t really feasibly add more hours. 

We currently have WIC and Medicaid... this is where my wrestle comes in. I have always believed strongly in self reliance. Financial difficulty has always been my biggest fear and we are creeping up to it.

So Thoughts concerning government and church aid. What is the difference? Why does government have such a negative connotation. I know Ezra Taft Bensen and many other church leaders have stated pretty clearly that we are not to take government handouts... how does this differ from church welfare?

I always feel uncomfortable when I think of our WIP and Medicaid... should we get rid of it?

No, use Medicaid if you need it.  You don't need to feel guilty if you are working hard and trying to be self sufficient.  In fact, I would advise against getting rid of Medicaid - that would hurt your family at a time you probably don't need more adversity.

I don't think social programs that help people help themselves (e.g., Medicaid, tax cuts, student loans, etc.) are a problem.  The problems are the social programs that encourage idleness and dependence and displace work (e.g., European style welfare, where it pays more in some cases to accept the welfare than get a minimum wage job and people just hang out sometimes for decades, watching TV ten hours a day).  I think President Benson is talking about the latter (and is absolutely right).

There is a huge difference between social programs that encourage hard working honest people and those that encourage freeloading and idleness at the expense of the public.

Edited by DoctorLemon

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Yes, we all should strive to be self-reliant.  But fact of the matter is at some times we might need help.  You & your wife should strive to provide for your family and doing things like working a job, getting an education, & being frugal with your money.  But if that's not enough, getting temporary help is not a bad thing.  The point of the temporary help is not for you two to lazy around forever, but to keep being frugal, get a good job, and help out the next generation. 

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A lot of my fear comes from statements like this from Ezra Taft Benson

”The chief weapon used by the federal government to achieve this “equality” is the system of transfer payments. This means that the federal governments collects from one income group and transfer payments to another by the tax system. These payments are made in the form of social security benefits, Medicare and Medicaid, and food stamps, to name a few. Today the cost of such programs has been going in the hole at the rate of 12 billion dollars a year; and, with increased benefits and greater numbers of recipients, even though the tax base has been increased we will have larger deficits in the future.

...

Are we part of the problem or part of the solution?

Recently a letter came to my office, accompanied by an article from your Daily Universe, on the matter of BYU students taking food stamps. The query of the letter was: “What is the attitude of the Church on taking food stamps?” The Church’s view on this is well known. We stand for independence, thrift, and abolition of the dole. This was emphasized in the Saturday morning welfare meeting of general conference. “The aim of the Church is to help the people to help themselves. Work is to be re-enthroned as the ruling principle of the lives of our Church membership” (Heber J. Grant, Conference Report, October 1936, p. 3).

When you accept food stamps, you accept an unearned handout that other working people are paying for. You do not earn food stamps or welfare payments. Every individual who accepts an unearned government gratuity is just as morally culpable as the individual who takes a handout from taxpayers’ money to pay his heat, electricity, or rent. There is no difference in principle between them. You did not come to this University to become a welfare recipient. You came here to be a light to the world, a light to society—to save society and to help to save this nation, the Lord’s base of operations in these latter days, to ameliorate man’s social conditions. You are not here to be a parasite or freeloader. The price you pay for “something for nothing” may be more than you can afford. Do not rationalize your acceptance of government gratuities by saying, “I am a contributing taxpayer too.” By doing this you contribute to the problem which is leading this nation to financial insolvency.

Society may rationalize immorality, but God cannot condone it. Society sponsors Sabbathbreaking, but the Church counsels otherwise. Society profanes the name of Deity, but Latter-day Saints cannot countenance it. Because society condones a dole, which demoralizes man and weakens his God-given initiative and character, can we?”

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/ezra-taft-benson_vision-hope-youth-zion/

Thoughts? Anyone care to further interpret the words of a Prophet of God? ;)

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@Doorman, the way the system is currently set up, things such as WIC are part of what you pay taxes for. Not taking them on principle when you qualify for them is like not taking Social Security on principle when you qualify -- it's a useless gesture.

FWIW, the Church no longer counsels people to avoid government welfare and other such handouts, and hasn't for quite a while. If you're going to become a permanent welfare recipient, then as a taxpayer I would encourage you not to do it. But if you're starting out and things are tight -- like it or not, that's the system we have, and I think it's unwise not to take advantage.

I'm not trying to be cynical, just clear-eyed. It is not hypocritical to say that the system is wrong and messed up, and should be changed in this way and that, while at the same time exercising the benefits that the government is handing out.

As for Church aid, talk to your bishop. He may tell you "no" (or "not yet"), which is fine. Doesn't hurt to counsel with him. He may be able to give you some valuable information.

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25 minutes ago, Doorman said:

A lot of my fear comes from statements like this from Ezra Taft Benson

”The chief weapon used by the federal government to achieve this “equality” is the system of transfer payments. This means that the federal governments collects from one income group and transfer payments to another by the tax system. These payments are made in the form of social security benefits, Medicare and Medicaid, and food stamps, to name a few. Today the cost of such programs has been going in the hole at the rate of 12 billion dollars a year; and, with increased benefits and greater numbers of recipients, even though the tax base has been increased we will have larger deficits in the future.

...

Are we part of the problem or part of the solution?

Recently a letter came to my office, accompanied by an article from your Daily Universe, on the matter of BYU students taking food stamps. The query of the letter was: “What is the attitude of the Church on taking food stamps?” The Church’s view on this is well known. We stand for independence, thrift, and abolition of the dole. This was emphasized in the Saturday morning welfare meeting of general conference. “The aim of the Church is to help the people to help themselves. Work is to be re-enthroned as the ruling principle of the lives of our Church membership” (Heber J. Grant, Conference Report, October 1936, p. 3).

When you accept food stamps, you accept an unearned handout that other working people are paying for. You do not earn food stamps or welfare payments. Every individual who accepts an unearned government gratuity is just as morally culpable as the individual who takes a handout from taxpayers’ money to pay his heat, electricity, or rent. There is no difference in principle between them. You did not come to this University to become a welfare recipient. You came here to be a light to the world, a light to society—to save society and to help to save this nation, the Lord’s base of operations in these latter days, to ameliorate man’s social conditions. You are not here to be a parasite or freeloader. The price you pay for “something for nothing” may be more than you can afford. Do not rationalize your acceptance of government gratuities by saying, “I am a contributing taxpayer too.” By doing this you contribute to the problem which is leading this nation to financial insolvency.

Society may rationalize immorality, but God cannot condone it. Society sponsors Sabbathbreaking, but the Church counsels otherwise. Society profanes the name of Deity, but Latter-day Saints cannot countenance it. Because society condones a dole, which demoralizes man and weakens his God-given initiative and character, can we?”

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/ezra-taft-benson_vision-hope-youth-zion/

Thoughts? Anyone care to further interpret the words of a Prophet of God? ;)

Yeah, they are talking about the "dole", which refers to long term welfare benefits for people who have no interest in working.  I wish you could spend some time in Europe and you would see what I mean - people who spend 30 years and let someone else take care of them so they don't have to work even when they are perfectly able to work.  This is very far from Medicaid (helping hard working families deal with an occasional medical bill without ruining them) or even unemployment compensation (temporary aid to help families in the event of job loss).

I think America these days has the dole under control due to welfare reform in 1996 but things are just nuts in Europe, where some of those countries have debt problems that make America's look like a walk in the park due to throwing middle class level benefits to anyone who doesn't want to work for any reason.

I don't know how food stamps back in the late 1930s compares to TANF today, but I could see food stamps described by Grant in some ways being analgous to European welfare - handouts that encourage idleness by taking care of every need so work becomes unnecessary altogether.

Edited by DoctorLemon

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I believe President Benson’s advice represented the word and will of the Lord, tailored to the audience Benson was addressing.  I further believe that underlying Benson’s advice were a number of principles that are timeless and are worth remembering even after the Church’s formal position has evolved in response to changing social and political conditions.

That said, the Church no longer opposes every instance of receiving government aid.  See the June 2017 “Ensign” article on “What I Learned While Unemployed”, which includes lining up state heath insurance and unemployment benefits as among the recommended “First Steps”.

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Welcome, @Doorman!

IMO, if you are employed (or paying any other form of tax), the government is taking money from you and your employer to pay for these kinds of programs.  Were the government not taking your money for these kinds of programs, you would have money in your pocket you could use for your own needs.  Therefore, if you need the programs and take advantage of them, you're just taking something that would have been yours had the government stayed out of it.  (This is my simplified perspective.)  Note that I'm paying into this too (no choice in the matter) and don't need these programs, so you're welcome to my share. :)

Time to resume FHE now...

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3 hours ago, Doorman said:

So I have been wrestling with this for a long time now. I’m a full time college student, married, first kid on the way. My wife and I love pretty frugally. 

Currently we have quite a bit of money, but with the baby coming rather soon, counseling my wife and I are attending, medical tests I need to get done eventually (been putting off because of a lack of money), we will run out of money pretty quick.

I work full time currently and can’t really feasibly add more hours. 

We currently have WIC and Medicaid... this is where my wrestle comes in. I have always believed strongly in self reliance. Financial difficulty has always been my biggest fear and we are creeping up to it.

So Thoughts concerning government and church aid. What is the difference? Why does government have such a negative connotation. I know Ezra Taft Bensen and many other church leaders have stated pretty clearly that we are not to take government handouts... how does this differ from church welfare?

I always feel uncomfortable when I think of our WIP and Medicaid... should we get rid of it?

ETB was a conspiracy theorist and didnt like any part of anything resembling socialism which wss the main reason he was against any government help.

Theres nothing wrong with being on medicaid and WIC. They arent evil conspiracies.

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54 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

ETB was a conspiracy theorist and didnt like any part of anything resembling socialism which wss the main reason he was against any government help.

Ezra Taft Benson was a prophet of God and a highly intelligent man with intimate familiarity with the workings of governments on the federal and international level. I'd say he was very well qualified to make judgments about possible conspiracies. I would think that any thoughtful person would seriously consider his ideas on any such subject, rather than dismiss them out of hand with an impatient wave and a derogatory appeal to conspiracy-theory types.

56 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Theres nothing wrong with being on medicaid and WIC. They arent evil conspiracies.

Do you make this judgment based on Benson-like experience and insight into such matters? Or are you simply offering an internet opinion that plays along the popular conspiracy-eye-rolling line?

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The issue really isn't with the recipient, other than I feel government programs don't do enough to improve the future of people, and tend to lead to long term dependency.

But the bigger issue is that the funds for government programs are taken by force (via taxes), and not through charity.  Church funds come from willing members who want to help you, and that makes a difference both in their attitude toward the recipient, and to your future, knowing that something like fast offerings may be helping members of your own ward.  That's the true meaning of charity, and love for your fellow man. Taxation does not teach love, but actually fosters resentment.

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15 hours ago, Doorman said:

So I have been wrestling with this for a long time now. I’m a full time college student, married, first kid on the way. My wife and I love pretty frugally. 

Currently we have quite a bit of money, but with the baby coming rather soon, counseling my wife and I are attending, medical tests I need to get done eventually (been putting off because of a lack of money), we will run out of money pretty quick.

I work full time currently and can’t really feasibly add more hours. 

We currently have WIC and Medicaid... this is where my wrestle comes in. I have always believed strongly in self reliance. Financial difficulty has always been my biggest fear and we are creeping up to it.

So Thoughts concerning government and church aid. What is the difference? Why does government have such a negative connotation. I know Ezra Taft Bensen and many other church leaders have stated pretty clearly that we are not to take government handouts... how does this differ from church welfare?

I always feel uncomfortable when I think of our WIP and Medicaid... should we get rid of it?

Your bishop will probably advise you to get government assistance if you need it.

The Church discourages the dole, which is getting something for nothing and remaining idle. This is the kind of assistance President Benson and others condemned. However, if you have been a self-sufficient, productive citizen, paying taxes, etc., then Medicaid and WIC are a form of insurance benefit that you contributed to when times were better, and that you will continue to support when things get better again. No shame in that. This could extend to parents having paid their taxes for years so that their children might draw the needed benefits should tough times come.

The Church welfare system is for typically temporary or short-term needs that cannot be met in any other way, and often requires some action on the recipient's part to become self-sufficient.

The concern over assistance isn't about whether it is government- or church-provided, but about whether accepting it contributes to pride, idleness, entitlement, etc. There was a time when government benefits were seen as a devilish substitute for individual, family and church preparedness systems for those very reasons. But the Church has been very successful in teaching correct welfare principles, and so the members can use government aid as a temporary resource and not adopt as a lifestyle. LDS Self-Reliance Services and the "My Path to Self Reliance" are good examples of how the Church gets people past government assistance on a reasonable timetable. https://www.lds.org/topics/pef-self-reliance?lang=eng&old=true

 

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15 hours ago, DoctorLemon said:

I don't think social programs that help people help themselves (e.g., Medicaid, tax cuts, student loans, etc.) are a problem. 

Just want to make a correction...  Tax Cuts is not a social program.

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14 hours ago, Doorman said:

Thoughts? Anyone care to further interpret the words of a Prophet of God? ;)

Yes, follow the living prophet. Their inspired words are all perfectly legitimate, and the more tailored they are for their times, the more foreign they may seem to those from another era.

There are those who thrive on the spirit of contention and who will strive to misrepresent any changes over time to be the consequence of a personal fault in the LDS leadership or doctrine.

 

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15 hours ago, Doorman said:

So Thoughts concerning government and church aid. What is the difference? Why does government have such a negative connotation.  I know Ezra Taft Bensen and many other church leaders have stated pretty clearly that we are not to take government handouts... how does this differ from church welfare?

The difference, of course, is one is run by the Church - hence, operating under the inspiration of God - while the other is run by the government - operating under the management and design of people not necessarily inspired by God and subject to human weaknesses and corruption.

Government gets a negative connotation because welfare as designed by government is not primarily designed to help people but primarily designed to gain votes at the expense of taxpayers who has little control of where their taxes go.  Now, there are government programs (usually at the local/State level) that are run efficiently - these are programs who measure their success by the people who successfully get OFF of the system rather than the people who get on the system.

Dr. Ben Carson is a very thoughtful and deliberate type of person.  That character trait is excellent for governance but, unfortunately, it makes him appear to move like a giant tanker ship in a sea of molasses.  He was appointed as HUD Secretary early last year.  There has been no ripples in HUD that was significant enough to catch the eyes of the media so we just gone and forgot about Dr. Carson.  I guess it's a good thing that he was just left alone to do whatever he needed to do without the harpies screeching at him because Carson's Department is coming up with shockingly AMAZING things, albeit in turtle-pace.  So, there's a social program that has hope of being a good one in the near future.  But, of course, that's the problem with government... it's only as good as Dr. Carson is at the helm... eventually, he's going to be replaced and who knows what will happen then.  With the Church, it doesn't matter who is the Prophet... Church welfare will always be run in the manner God designed for it to run, being a source of comfort to some and an opportunity to serve for others.

  

15 hours ago, Doorman said:

I always feel uncomfortable when I think of our WIP and Medicaid... should we get rid of it?

It's good that you're uncomfortable with it.  But before you get rid of WIC and Medicaid, you have to know how you're going to provide for your wife and kid without WIC and Medicaid.  The righteous design of charity is to look first and foremost to your family for assistance.  If they do not have the resources to help, then you go to your community - this can be your church or the government.  This usually means you go have a chat with your bishop to seek the Lord's counsel on what kind of assistance you need - the bishop's storehouse, government welfare, or both.

Good luck.

 

 

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Lets back into the OP's problem. Full time college student that's great, but then the OP states "I'm married" and "I have a kid on the way" Whoa stop. This is how we get into these tight spots.  We put the carriage before the horse. 

Look OP the ship has sailed, and you need the Government to step in and help out. It is what it is and you have an obligation to your wife and baby to make sure that they have what they need.  

I would question is this God's plan for our youth? Get married and have a kid without viable means to support them? 

Edited by omegaseamaster75

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6 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Lets back into the OP's problem. Full time college student that's great, but then the OP states "I'm married" and "I have a kid on the way" Whoa stop. This is how we get into these tight spots.  We put the carriage before the horse. 

Look OP the ship has sailed, and you need the Government to step in and help out. It is what it is and you have an obligation to your wife and baby to make sure that they have what they need.  

I would question is this God's plan for our youth? Get married and have a kid without viable means to support them? 

I have told tens of thousands of young folks that when they marry they should not wait for children until they have finished their schooling and financial desires. Marriage is basically for the family, and when people have found their proper companions there should be no long delay. They should live together normally and let the children come.

  • Spencer W Kimball

 

 

Other quotes:

 

 

“I am offended by the sophistry that the only lot of the Latter-day Saint woman is to be barefoot and pregnant. It’s a clever phrase, but it’s false. Of course we believe in children. The Lord has told us to multiply and replenish the earth that we might have joy in our posterity, and there is no greater joy than the joy that comes of happy children in good families. But he did not designate the number, nor has the Church. That is a sacred matter left to the couple and the Lord. The official statement of the Church includes this language: ‘Husbands must be considerate of their wives, who have the greater responsibility not only of bearing children but of caring for them through childhood, and should help them conserve their health and strength. Married couples should exercise self-control in all of their relationships. They should seek inspiration from the Lord in meeting their marital challenges and rearing their children according to the teachings of the gospel’ ( General Handbook of Instructions [1983], p. 77)” ( Cornerstones of a Happy Home, 6).

 Like this

 Quote

 

"When to have a child and how many children to have are private decisions to be made between a husband and wife and the Lord. These are sacred decisions--decisions that should be made with sincere prayer and acted on with great faith." -Elder Anderson

 

And this too

 

“Tomorrow when I repeat the phrases that will bind you for eternity, I shall say the same impressive words that the Lord said to that handsome youth and his lovely bride in the Garden of Eden: ‘Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth.’ . . .

 

“. . . You came to get for yourself a mortal body that could become perfected, immortalized, and you understood that you were to act in partnership with God in providing bodies for other spirits. . . . And so you will not postpone parenthood. There will be rationalists who will name to you numerous reasons for postponement. Of course, it will be harder to get your college degrees or your financial start with a family, but strength like yours will be undaunted in the face of difficult obstacles. Have your family as the Lord intended. Of course it is expensive, but you will find a way, and besides, it is often those children who grow up with responsibility and hardships who carry on the world’s work"

 

he first commandment given to man was to multiply and replenish the earth with children. That commandment has never been altered, modified, or cancelled. The Lord did not say to multiply and replenish the earth if it is convenient, or if you are wealthy, or after you have gotten your schooling, or when there is peace on earth, or until you have four children. The Bible says, ‘Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: . . . Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them. . . .’ ( Ps. 127:3, 5 .) We believe God is glorified by having numerous children and a program of perfection for them. So also will God glorify that husband and wife who have a large posterity and who have tried to raise them up in righteousness” (Ezra Taft Benson in Conference Report, Apr. 1969, 12).

 

AND

 

"Supreme happiness in marriage is governed considerably by a primary factor—that of the bearing and rearing of children. Too many young people set their minds, determining they will not marry or have children until they are more secure, until the military service period is over; until the college degree is secured; until the occupation is more well-defined; until the debts are paid; or until it is more convenient. They have forgotten that the first commandment is to ‘be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it.’ ( Genesis 1:28 .) And so brides continue their employment and husbands encourage it, and contraceptives are used to prevent conception. Relatives and friends and even mothers sometimes encourage birth control for their young newlyweds. But the excuses are many, mostly weak. The wife is not robust; the family budget will not feed extra mouths; or the expense of the doctor, hospital, and other incidentals is too great; it will disturb social life; it would prevent two salaries; and so abnormal living prevents the birth of children. The Church cannot approve nor condone the measures which so greatly limit the family” ( Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 328–29).

I would say yes... it is Gods plan.

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Is it also Gods plan to be dependant on the Government for our needs? @Fether

Because the one of the same guys you quote also said this (previously posted)

When you accept food stamps, you accept an unearned handout that other working people are paying for. You do not earn food stamps or welfare payments. Every individual who accepts an unearned government gratuity is just as morally culpable as the individual who takes a handout from taxpayers’ money to pay his heat, electricity, or rent. There is no difference in principle between them. You did not come to this University to become a welfare recipient. You came here to be a light to the world, a light to society—to save society and to help to save this nation, the Lord’s base of operations in these latter days, to ameliorate man’s social conditions. You are not here to be a parasite or freeloader. The price you pay for “something for nothing” may be more than you can afford. Do not rationalize your acceptance of government gratuities by saying, “I am a contributing taxpayer too.” By doing this you contribute to the problem which is leading this nation to financial insolvency.

Society may rationalize immorality, but God cannot condone it. Society sponsors Sabbathbreaking, but the Church counsels otherwise. Society profanes the name of Deity, but Latter-day Saints cannot countenance it. Because society condones a dole, which demoralizes man and weakens his God-given initiative and character, can we?”

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/ezra-taft-benson_vision-hope-youth-zion/

Edited by omegaseamaster75

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12 hours ago, Vort said:

Ezra Taft Benson was a prophet of God and a highly intelligent man with intimate familiarity with the workings of governments on the federal and international level. I'd say he was very well qualified to make judgments about possible conspiracies. I would think that any thoughtful person would seriously consider his ideas on any such subject, rather than dismiss them out of hand with an impatient wave and a derogatory appeal to conspiracy-theory types.

Do you make this judgment based on Benson-like experience and insight into such matters? Or are you simply offering an internet opinion that plays along the popular conspiracy-eye-rolling line?

ETB was a great prophet. But, his distaste for social programs by the government went a bit overboard. If one thinks about it, any and all tax expense is a social construct. So, should we not pay taxes at all? We all recieve benefits of our tax system, they are all social constructs. Many of his conspiracy theories died with him. Im not saying everything he belueved in was wrong, I support the majority of his views on welfare and self reliance. But, food stamps, wic, etc, are not evil counterfeits to the Lords welfare system.

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Just now, Rob Osborn said:

ETB was a great prophet. But, his distaste for social programs by the government went a bit overboard. If one thinks about it, any and all tax expense is a social construct. So, should we not pay taxes at all? We all recieve benefits of our tax system, they are all social constructs. Many of his conspiracy theories died with him. Im not saying everything he belueved in was wrong, I support the majority of his views on welfare and self reliance. But, food stamps, wic, etc, are not evil counterfeits to the Lords welfare system.

And I don't think that they are, however there seems to be plenty of argument for getting married and popping out kids right away with no viable means to support them.

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10 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Get married and have a kid without viable means to support them? 

And my dad would testify that had he and my mom waited to have kids until he had a better job, the Lord would never have blessed him with the career opportunities he had.  It was an act of obedience and leap of faith - and this was not his interpretation of past events, but his testimony, confirmed to him by the Spirit, of how the Lord operated in their lives back then.

And just like the blessings which come from tithes and offerings vary from person to person, so do the blessings from following any other commandment.  Hence, while I might advise a couple on things to consider and plan for, I certainly would not tell them absolutes like "don't have kids" until you've got a job paying at least X, and have Y reserve in the bank or some such.  They should consider reality, the counsel of prophets, and take their choices to the Lord and decide for themselves.

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1 minute ago, zil said:

And my dad would testify that had he and my mom waited to have kids until he had a better job, the Lord would never have blessed him with the career opportunities he had.  It was an act of obedience and leap of faith - and this was not his interpretation of past events, but his testimony, confirmed to him by the Spirit, of how the Lord operated in their lives back then.

 

We all like to loudly proclaim the exception.  If we are honest with ourselves this is not the rule.

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7 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Is it also Gods plan to be dependant on the Government for our needs? @Fether

Now you are making this an argument of opposingmorals.

God wants us to have children, to not wait for education and career goals or to wait till we are “secure”. Read the words of the prophets.

The only advice they give beyond that is to pray and ask God what you should do. You are in no place to council anyone but yourself as to when you should have children.

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1 minute ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

We all like to loudly proclaim the exception.  If we are honest with ourselves this is not the rule.

Your kicking against the pricks omega.

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