Welfare: Church and Government


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6 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

And I don't think that they are, however there seems to be plenty of argument for getting married and popping out kids right away with no viable means to support them.

I comletely disagree. It doesnt require much expense to clothe and feed children. I grew up very poor, we never really got any help, always had a full belly and clothes on our back. I had a very very happy childhood.

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13 minutes ago, Fether said:

Your kicking against the pricks omega.

I realize that with this audience I am on the losing side, like you said kicking against the pricks. I only wish to point out that the OP made his bed, he made decisions that led to this crisis in his life and now he is posting looking to assuage his guilt for going on the government dole.

I agree we should not put off having kids, we should not put of marriage. We don't need to wait until we make X dollars/year. When we hear the counsel of the prophets I am sure that they do not anticipate the young men and women of the church getting married unprepared for life and having to rely on the government for support.

But will anyone say that as a priesthood holder that you do not have an obligation to provide for your family?

Edited by omegaseamaster75
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7 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I comletely disagree. It doesnt require much expense to clothe and feed children. I grew up very poor, we never really got any help, always had a full belly and clothes on our back. I had a very very happy childhood.

You completely disagree? we are talking about relying on the government to supplement the support of in this case the OP's family because of decisions that were made by the individuals.  This is not the plan, how can it be? 

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3 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

I realize that with this audience I am on the losing side, like you said kicking against the pricks. I only wish to point out that the OP made his bed, he made decisions that led to this crisis in his life and now he is posting looking to assuage his guilt for going on the government dole.

I agree we should not put off having kids, we should not put of marriage. We don't need to wait until we make X dollars/year. When we hear the counsel of the prophets and I am sure that they do not anticipate the young men and women of the church getting married unprepared for life and having to rely on the government for support.

But will anyone say that as a priesthood holder that you do not have an obligation to provide for your family?

We do have a responsibility. To be honest, even with the comments made supporting the OP, I am still unsure about welfare.

But what I do know is that God wants us to start a family and being his children into this world. I’m beginning to think that maybe God cares little about how it happens and more about where it’s going. The principle of self reliance is a law that I feel is more so a mindset and active goal than a law the live perfectly. And the law to have children and start a family came before “by the sweat of your brow shalt thou labor”.

You want to talk about times you took handouts from the government. You going to School, or putting your children through school, when you drive on the road that you didn’t build, when you use a cross walk so you don’t get hit by a car. We all rely on the government to some extent.

Self reliance is essential for salvation, but it doesn’t supersede having children.

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1 minute ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

You completely disagree? we are talking about relying on the government to supplement the support of in this case the OP's family because of decisions that were made by the individuals.  This is not the plan, how can it be? 

One can choose to rely on the government or not. How much money one is making is not part of the equation to bring Gods children into the world.

I was making barely over minimum wage when my wife became pregnant with our first child. We were really poor. She ended up having a c section and the hospital bill was really expensive. We qualified for government help and that was taken care of. We were on food stamps for about a year until my wife could go back to work. Oh, and BTW, we found out later through some personal revelation that our son was supposed to come to our family at that time. So, whos plan is it really? Gods.

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Using medicaid to have children isn't sponging off the government - it is the government investing in the future, as these children will grow up to be taxpayers!  (This is why I compare dipping into medicaid to help raise children as being more like a tax cut (which I admit is not a social program) than just hanging out on the dole).

No one wants to talk about the fact that our budget problems are largely due to the fact the Baby Boomers did not have enough children to support the government (thanks, Planned Parenthood) and now we are getting upside down in our population, where an exploding number of elderly have to be supported by an insufficient number of younger workers - like Japan, but on a less dramatic scale.

I think it is not only righteous to procreate, but also patriotic!  Even if you have to dip into medicaid to do it.

As for me, I waited until I was in my late 20s to have my daughter.  Turns out, she was the only child me and my wife will probably ever have, due to medical reasons.  I found out too late I love being a father, and I wish I had started taking trying to have a child more seriously earlier on - it kills me sometimes that I actually may never be able to have a second child.  There are consequences for delaying having children, and in retrospect I think it would have been well worth it to rough it while I was in law school and start building a family sooner.

Edited by DoctorLemon
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1 minute ago, Fether said:

You want to talk about times you took handouts from the government. You going to School, or putting your children through school, when you drive on the road that you didn’t build, when you use a cross walk so you don’t get hit by a car. We all rely on the government to some extent.

Self reliance is essential for salvation, but it doesn’t supersede having children.

My kids go to private school, and I pay taxes so that I can drive on the roads and have public services. 

Is it Gods plan to to have kids for which we cannot provide? for whom we must rely on a government agency for support?

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Just now, Fether said:

@omegaseamaster75

I want you to find one instance in which God commands an individual or people not to have children. You can use ANY source from scripture or general authorities.

until I see one, I cannot accept what you suggest.

Find one instance where I said to not have children, you can use any source that you want.  I will await patiently. 

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One more thing - I would never, ever judge anyone who decided not to have children for any reason, whether LDS or not.  It is none of my business whatsoever what other couples do, especially since they are not in my same situation.  I have to watch my language when commenting on this subject, because I feel personal pain and regret specific to my life decisions in my specific circumstances regarding not starting earlier and having more children, and sometimes this can unintentionally translate to sounding judgmental. 

Edited by DoctorLemon
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1 hour ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

I realize that with this audience I am on the losing side, like you said kicking against the pricks. I only wish to point out that the OP made his bed, he made decisions that led to this crisis in his life and now he is posting looking to assuage his guilt for going on the government dole.

I agree we should not put off having kids, we should not put of marriage. We don't need to wait until we make X dollars/year. When we hear the counsel of the prophets I am sure that they do not anticipate the young men and women of the church getting married unprepared for life and having to rely on the government for support.

But will anyone say that as a priesthood holder that you do not have an obligation to provide for your family?

I think we’d all be surprised at just what sorts of scenarios our prophets are anticipating and contemplating.

To me this is simply a testimony of how important it is that the spirits still awaiting the beginnings of mortality, be born into righteous homes as often as possible.  The spirit can come to a struggling pair of BYU students, or to a crack-infested ghetto queen in San Francisco—but either way the kid is coming; and either way, as Americans, our taxes are paying for it.

If welfare recipients are able to avoid the temptation of idleness and eventually transcend their poverty (while rearing a brood of children in righteousness, to boot), I don’t think God cares very much about what that means for the financial bottom line of a government entity that is already likely to have collapsed or disintegrated before this century is over.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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1 hour ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Find one instance where I said to not have children, you can use any source that you want.  I will await patiently. 

Here ya go...

1 hour ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Is it Gods plan to to have kids for which we cannot provide? for whom we must rely on a government agency for support?

You're basically saying here the conditions for not having children.

 

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21 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Sigh.

First World people.

Do you not reside in the US?

Please don't respond with a filipino anecdote about how great it is in the US and how I possibly couldn't understand what conditions are like in a third world country. You don't know me or my history so save the platitudes for someone who really doesn't know. 

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6 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Am I saying it? or basicly  saying it.  

That's a fail, who's next.

 

Trying to wiggle, I see.  Yes you are saying it.  You just told the OP - you got married and had a kid when you couldn't get by without WIC.  You SHOULDN'T HAVE.

Are you going to deny it?

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4 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Do you not reside in the US?

Please don't respond with a filipino anecdote about how great it is in the US and how I possibly couldn't understand what conditions are like in a third world country. You don't know me or my history so save the platitudes for someone who really doesn't know. 

Only First World people think they can't afford to have kids.

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2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

ETB was a great prophet. But, his distaste for social programs by the government went a bit overboard. If one thinks about it, any and all tax expense is a social construct. So, should we not pay taxes at all? We all recieve benefits of our tax system, they are all social constructs. Many of his conspiracy theories died with him. Im not saying everything he belueved in was wrong, I support the majority of his views on welfare and self reliance. But, food stamps, wic, etc, are not evil counterfeits to the Lords welfare system.

Well, this is an entirely different item.  I'm an American...you know one of the things that got our nation started was when some individuals threw a fit about some taxes and threw a bunch of tea overboard?  Right?

:P

I'd enjoy it not to pay income taxes at all, and that they raise taxes on imports/exports (just like it clarifies in the Constitution originally), but as I said, that's a completely different conversation.

(PS: That said, as we DO have taxes, I am one who IS in favor of most of the social programs currently in the US, but mostly because they came about due to the depression and many of the so called church charities not doing enough to stop people from dying in the streets from starvation or exposure at times.  Also the little known thing among Mormons called the Law of Consecration and the idea that we have no poor among us...)

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The sad truth is we now live in a society where first world ideals prevent us from wanting to have children or believe we can clothe and feed them all. It runs in many forms. When one gets hampered  down with tge thought of having to pay the car payment, the directv cable bill, the two smartphone bills, the wifi bill, and that expensive wedding ring bill on top of all the other bills it gets kind of daunting. I remember when I was first married we had no cable tv, drove a car that we paid cash for (it was kind of an older beater) had no cell phones, no internet bill, co credit card bills. My wifes wedding ring was a couple hundred bucks that was already paid off. We lived off my 7.50 an hour job, 200$ in food stamps, etc. I got a raise later on to 9.50 and my wife went back to work part time and we had extra money to go on vacations. Me and my wifes combined income during those years was about 20,000$ ( about15- 20 years ago) and we lived debt free and had extra money and at that point were receiving no government help. It wasnt unti about 10 years ago we graduated over the 30,000 gross income mark at the time in which we were blessed with our second child. Never, at any time did I feel I couldnt raise as many kids as the Lord would bless us with. During those early years we almost always had extra family members who were jobless or homeless living with us and many times our income was feeding 7 or more people. We lived after the manner of happiness. Even now, our income isnt that much greater, we manage to get by with no government or church help. We never have more than an extra hundred dollars in savings but we never go without a meal, always have extra to feed whomever comes through the door and still can afford all the first world luxaries like cable tv, smartphones, internet, etc. Kids nowdays think they are entitled to all the luxary items like cable tv, smartphones, wifi, etc, as part of standard living expenses. Thats a first world problem- a mindset of our rising generation. We have had it tooo goood! I honestly wish we could go back to living like pioneers where if you didnt go out and do your daily chores and tasks you were risking tge lives of your family!

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2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Trying to wiggle, I see.  Yes you are saying it.  You just told the OP - you got married and had a kid when you couldn't get by without WIC.  You SHOULDN'T HAVE.

Are you going to deny it?

Your gonna have to show me the quote where I said that.  Read what I said very carefully, did I say what I am being accused of or did I pose a question?

When the brethren ask us to not delay having families we need to read between the line a little. It's called being a responsible adult.

Edited by omegaseamaster75
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18 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

ETB was a conspiracy theorist and didnt like any part of anything resembling socialism which wss the main reason he was against any government help.

Theres nothing wrong with being on medicaid and WIC. They arent evil conspiracies.

They actually ARE evil conspiracies.  Look what "entitlements" have done to the black community in the US.  They have created dependency where none existed before. 

I think it's morally reprehensible that any member of the church would deliberately put himself/herself in the position of taking government or any other assistance.

Think Venezuela.

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5 hours ago, zil said:

And my dad would testify that had he and my mom waited to have kids until he had a better job, the Lord would never have blessed him with the career opportunities he had.  It was an act of obedience and leap of faith - and this was not his interpretation of past events, but his testimony, confirmed to him by the Spirit, of how the Lord operated in their lives back then.

 

Bullfeathers.  you don't know that and neither does he.

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8 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Bullfeathers.  you don't know that and neither does he.

What are the bullfeathers? Do you mean that zil doesn't know whether her dad would have testified of that? She likely knew very well, and probably heard him so testify on many occasions.

Or do you mean that she doesn't know whether her dad was correct? Well, that's sort of the idea of a testimony, isn't it? It's a private revelation given us of the Spirit. Her dad testified, and she believed. You need not believe, but your disbelief neither falsifies nor confirms her father's testimony. That still stands in its place for all who heard it.

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40 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

They actually ARE evil conspiracies.  Look what "entitlements" have done to the black community in the US.  They have created dependency where none existed before. 

I think it's morally reprehensible that any member of the church would deliberately put himself/herself in the position of taking government or any other assistance.

Think Venezuela.

They arent evil. Lazy and/or evil people take advantage of others but the systembitself isnt evil. There is no instance where Satan says "feed the hungry, help the poor, and clothe the naked". Its the opposite- let them starve, make them more poor, and let them stay naked.

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