Relevation & Inspiration...MTC abuse

[Petty3]

The MTC scandal has brought up questions.  Why does Heavenly Father allow people who abuse others to serve in callings of authority?  Why wasn't revelation given to those who called him?  (Or others like him.)  I know there is agency but I still think that inspiration could occur.   He could have been removed from his calling after using his agency incorrectly.

Is revelation and inspiration a real thing  given to leaders or isn't it?  

[BeccaKirstyn]

Why does Heavenly Father allow someone to get into a car drunk and kill a family? 

Agency is and will always be a gift that He will never take away from us. 

[BeccaKirstyn]

I think having questions about things like this is important, so long as you keep to the scriptures and to prayer for answers. Do you believe in Heavenly Father? Do you believe in the authority He has placed upon the Earth to guide His church? Do you believe in the fallibility of mankind, but that Jesus Christ suffered for that very reason so that repentance could be used and we could return to live with the Father? 

These are the things you have to go back to and use as your foundation when you have questions like these. Remember the principles you know to be true. Remember where the priesthood line of authority comes from. And remember that all man kind will fail and make mistakes. Even those in positions of authority. But that Jesus Christ suffered for both the sinner and the victim. And He took upon him everything that would ever happen on this Earth. There is justice and mercy in His plan. 

Edited March 26, 2018 by BeccaKirstyn

[Just_A_Guy]

34 minutes ago, Petty3 said:

The MTC scandal has brought up questions.  Why does Heavenly Father allow people who abuse others to serve in callings of authority?  Why wasn't revelation given to those who called him?  (Or others like him.)  I know there is agency but I still think that inspiration could occur.   He could have been removed from his calling after using his agency incorrectly.

Is revelation and inspiration a real thing  given to leaders or isn't it?  

Well, and even to amplify your question a bit:  Why does Heavenly Father allow people who abuse others (such as children) to serve in positions of authority (such as parents)?  

I think we are right to expect Church leaders to be generally a more righteous and harmless set of men than your randomly-selected, average sample; and I think as a general principle that is true.  But they aren't all safe, and they don't all get immediately caught; and I see the issue fundamentally as still being one of theodicy.  Sometimes God intervenes, sometimes He doesn't, and we don't always know why.  

I do believe that LDS leaders (and, pretty much, everyone else on earth) have claim on revelation/inspiration, to the degree that a) they are willing to seek it and pay the price for it, and b) the Lord deigns to give it to them; and when those conditions occur, the leader's authority and inspiration can mutually reinforce each other in a way that makes for much more effective leadership than what I've ever seen attained in any other organization.

But for what it's worth, I had a couple of APs on my mission who made my life a living hell for a couple of months; and in that particular case after a lot of wrestling and prayer, the answer I got (which is not completely satisfying, and probably doesn't apply in every scenario; but it was enough to carry me when I needed to be carried) is that sometimes God just gives people enough rope to hang themselves.

[Petty3]

 

14 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

sometimes God just gives people enough rope to hang themselves.

I agree with that.

I do think that church leaders should be held to a higher standard.  I know they are human and make mistakes but they counsel others and know better.  

I feel so often callings are given out of necessity but not really inspiration.  

I've always had a testimony but over the past 6 months or so I've been shaken.  I've seen the mistakes of too many leaders.  (I know, I know...the church is true not the people.)  I'm honestly seeking answers right now but am not sure if revelation is really occurring.

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, Petty3 said:

The MTC scandal has brought up questions.  Why does Heavenly Father allow people who abuse others to serve in callings of authority?  Why wasn't revelation given to those who called him?  (Or others like him.)  I know there is agency but I still think that inspiration could occur.   He could have been removed from his calling after using his agency incorrectly.

Is revelation and inspiration a real thing  given to leaders or isn't it?  

The far better and more productive question to me is, why some people irrationally look only at the extremely rare negative exceptions rather than also reasonably considering the overwhelming positive general rule when assessing revelation and inspiration?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[BeccaKirstyn]

5 minutes ago, Petty3 said:

 

I agree with that.

I do think that church leaders should be held to a higher standard.  I know they are human and make mistakes but they counsel others and know better.  

I feel so often callings are given out of necessity but not really inspiration.  

I've always had a testimony but over the past 6 months or so I've been shaken.  I've seen the mistakes of too many leaders.  (I know, I know...the church is true not the people.)  I'm honestly seeking answers right now but am not sure if revelation is really occurring.

I completely understand that. It’s hard not to get wrapped up in stories like these, because it can feel so close to home. 

I really do believe it is best to stick close to gospel principles in times like these: read the scriptures, pray, read general conference talks. Make weak things become strong. 

I’d recommend reading this talk. Always an amazing reminder. 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/04/lord-i-believe?lang=eng

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Petty3 said:

The MTC scandal has brought up questions.  Why does Heavenly Father allow people who abuse others to serve in callings of authority?  Why wasn't revelation given to those who called him?  (Or others like him.)  I know there is agency but I still think that inspiration could occur.   He could have been removed from his calling after using his agency incorrectly.

Is revelation and inspiration a real thing  given to leaders or isn't it?  

Yes inspiration and revelation are given to leaders. Its one reason very very few predators make it into high leadership positions. Theres a great filtration process thats included in calling people into position. But, even still, the Lord generally isnt going to bar good people from making bad choices. The Lord doesnt micro manage the church. He allows men who have flaws to make judgment calls on their own and learn in that process. After all- men must be tested to see if they will be obedient or not. Gods justice and mercy pick up where man fails and in the end God is the perfect judge, Christ the perfect mediator, and His atoning power saves all that is possible. We cant expect men, even in leadership, to be perfect. We are mortal, a fallen people, and we will make mistakes. 

[Just_A_Guy]

15 minutes ago, Petty3 said:

I feel so often callings are given out of necessity but not really inspiration.  

You know, I’ve had that impression about various leaders too; but then I’ll see the go and do something bafflingly, marvelously inspired; and it’s like, who knew?

I think the best thing anyone can do is to move forward with a presumption of overall trust and a willingness to stretch a little to cooperate with the leader’s agenda—but at the same time, have a strong sense of personal revelation, of who you are, and of what your own boundaries are.  And if you find the leader pulling you towards your boundaries, hopefully you’ll have enough confidence in your own ability to receive revelation and a broad enough perspective that you can either say “I don’t agree, but it’s not the end of the world if we do this your way” on the one hand or “no, this is deeply violative and I just can’t do it” on the other.  

[Rob Osborn]

18 minutes ago, Petty3 said:

I do think that church leaders should be held to a higher standard.  I know they are human and make mistakes but they counsel others and know better.  

I feel so often callings are given out of necessity but not really inspiration. 

In general all callings are given by inspiration. We often overlook it as timing, coincidence, convenience, etc. What we often fail to realize is the length the Lord works to put people in the right places at precisely the right time that things line up to make the inspiration happen yet for most of the unknowing it just seems otherwise as the obvious necessity.

 

[Vort]

53 minutes ago, Petty3 said:

(I know, I know...the church is true not the people.)

No, for the most part, the Saints are true, too. "True" doesn't mean "perfect".

[Grunt]

In my conversion I thought about topics like this often. How could the Church be true if “x, y, and z” happens in it.  I came to several conclusions.  These are mine and have no official bearing, obviously.  

1.  The natural man is an imperfect vessel holding a perfect Spirit and receiving perfect revelation.  We make mistakes in listening to the Holy Spirit due to our imperfect nature.  Sometimes we let OUR wishes cloud the message we receive.  

I liken us to an earthen pot (analogy stolen from a Stake President).  Inside we hold the purest of water, but outside is dirty clay.  The contents can be difficult to analyze.  

2.  Sometimes bad people do good things.  Use this case as an example.  OBVIOUSLY, if the stories are accurate, he didn’t run around the MTC as Rapey McRapesalot.  He was a mentor, teacher, administrator, and likely did much good in that position.  He may have been in that position for one specific purpose, the likes of which are unkown to us.  

In the end, I trust God.  I trust the Church.  I accept that man does evil things and some of them exist in society and Church. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

10 hours ago, BeccaKirstyn said:

Why does Heavenly Father allow someone to get into a car drunk and kill a family? 

Agency is and will always be a gift that He will never take away from us. 

I don't think this is the same question at all.  The answer to your question is that we leave in a fallen world, and Heavenly Father allows people to use their agency unwisely.

Petty's question, if I understood it is a bit different.  Yes, your answer partially applies, but it doesn't answer this:  if men are called by inspiration, then why was he called in the first place?  If Bishops have the Gift of Discernment, how did his Bishops not discern that there was something wrong?   

@Petty3 I understand your questions because I have been mulling over the same things.  So here's my experience and thoughts, perhaps they will be helpful.

First, of all, as a survivor of abuse, I have always had a difficult time with authority figures, so this story is really hard for me.  To think that trust in an authority figure...someone "called of God" could misuse that trust in such a way, is very hard for me to take.  But each time I pray about it, the Lord gives me peace.  I still don't know the answers, but I know the Lord is in charge.  This is His church, and He has the power to right the wrongs and heal the wounds.  He will in His own due time.

Pres. Uchtdorf in his talk, Patience,, said, "Brigham Young taught that when something came up which he could not comprehend fully, he would pray to the Lord, "Give me patience to wait until I can understand it for myself."  And then Brigham would continue to pray until he could comprehend it."   

So that is my plan...but that isn't all of it.  I can no longer implicitly trust someone just because they have a certain calling.  Yes, I do believe that some callings are inspired and some Bishops have and use the Gift of Discernement.  But for me, this story clearly shows that some do not.  As Pres. Uctdorf said in his talk, Come Join With Us, the Lord has to do His work through imperfect humans....imperfect includes Bishops, and MTC presidents.  From now on, I will pray to get confirmation of new leaders, especially Bishops.  I will also pray for confirmation of new callings for me, and callings to any position that would give someone access to my children.  The Savior did tell us to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.  

Bottom line...yes, revelation and inspiration are real...but we can't always know if others are truly inspired unless we have the spirit of revelation ourselves.  So we need to make sure we have it.  The most effective way I have found to be closer to the Spirit is to read the Book of Mormon daily (really read, not just one verse...), pray (really talk to God, don't just use trite phrases) and be obedient.  

[CV75]

10 hours ago, Petty3 said:

The MTC scandal has brought up questions.  Why does Heavenly Father allow people who abuse others to serve in callings of authority?  Why wasn't revelation given to those who called him?  (Or others like him.)  I know there is agency but I still think that inspiration could occur.   He could have been removed from his calling after using his agency incorrectly.

Is revelation and inspiration a real thing  given to leaders or isn't it?  

Yes, revelation and inspiration are real. All the people who receive revelation and inspiration (or not) are fallible; the God who gives them is not. All we can do is develop our relationship with God, which relies heavily on grace, and not allow others' fallibility to stir up more of our own than we can recognize.

God has agency, and He gave us our agency and neither interfere with the other. If every priesthood leader were removed immediately before or immediately after the first serious abuse of power, we would not have the kinds of conditions that define a fallen world; Satan would be bound already. But he is not, and that's how bad this world can be.

[estradling75]

47 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

But for me, this story clearly shows that some do not.

Do you realize this is and unrighteous judgement?

Jesus called Judas to be one of his 12.  Did Jesus Lack or Fail to use the Gift of Discernment?  No of course not that make no sense.  So why did Jesus Call and give Judas everything he needed to be a betrayer?

The only answer that makes sense to me is that it was part of Judas's test to prove him.  And he did something awful which proved him.  To Jesus's great suffering

Do we think the Church or anyone else is "Better then" Jesus?  Do we think that God will never let someone we trust betray us? (unlike Christ).

To me the betrayal by someone trusted, while bitter, is a very Christ-like form of suffering.

The idea that God might put betrayers in our path (and thus not represent the failure of any other leader) is something we simply have to accept as happening to the very best of us (Christ)

 

[anatess2]

9 hours ago, Petty3 said:

 

I agree with that.

I do think that church leaders should be held to a higher standard.  I know they are human and make mistakes but they counsel others and know better.  

I feel so often callings are given out of necessity but not really inspiration.  

I've always had a testimony but over the past 6 months or so I've been shaken.  I've seen the mistakes of too many leaders.  (I know, I know...the church is true not the people.)  I'm honestly seeking answers right now but am not sure if revelation is really occurring.

Hi Petty3, I'm going to share with you my experience on Revelation.  It's not quite related to leadership positions but it relates as to the question of "Why does God do what God does" questions.

My dad was diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer in 2009.  He had an estimated 6 months or less to live.  My dad did not want any treatment because he believes he is ready to meet the Lord.  But I insisted that we try to fight the cancer because he might be ready but I'm not.  So, we flew him from the Philippines into this clinical trial for cancer treatment in Houston.  I prayed and prayed to God that my father would be healed and I felt so at peace and confident that God would answer my prayers.  Sure enough, my dad's cancer did not progress, it even shrunk!  Every milestone - 6 months after chemo, 1 year after chemo, etc. etc. confirmed God's answer to me - He loves me, He loves my dad, He is blessing us with healing.  I bore my testimony of it as I felt the Spirit so strongly.  After 2 years of this, my dad went through debilitating depression and demanded that  we send him home.  I fought with him and insisted he remain in the treatment as it is God's answer to our prayers.  A few months later my dad went on a hunger strike.  I was in despair but finally we sent him home.  A year later he passed away.  I couldn't understand it.  Why would my dad refuse God's blessings?  Why did God not soften my dad's heart so he can live?  All these testimony-shaking faith-shaking questions was rushing through my brain.

Finally, after more prayer and after I stopped blaming my dad and God for everything, I realized that God did not preserve my dad for that long so he can be healed.  I realized that God was trying to give me time to accept my dad's passing.  He gave me all that time and I wasted it clinging to my own desires, demanding that MY WILL be done.  I realized that my prayers should not have been - God, do this.  Rather, it should have been - God, may your will be done and may I have enough humility to understand why.

Your question of "Why?" is a noble one especially as you cling to the knowledge that God established a house of order and empowered it with His priesthood.  There is a divine purpose to things even at its darkest.  We cannot possibly understand how God can allow a person with priesthood authority to wield such authority in such a despicable manner.  All I know is, sometimes it's not about how we, in our obedience and faith, are blessed by God to not have any harm befall us.  Sometimes it's about God not staying the hand of the devil that we may all come out on the other end brought down to the lowest depths of humility, desperately clinging to God with strengthened faith and testimony.

Edited March 26, 2018 by anatess2

[The Folk Prophet]

9 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

that you can either say “I don’t agree, but it’s not the end of the world if we do this your way” on the one hand or “no, this is deeply violative and I just can’t do it” on the other.  

or on the third hand, "I just called the police."

[anatess2]

9 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

You know, I’ve had that impression about various leaders too; but then I’ll see the go and do something bafflingly, marvelously inspired; and it’s like, who knew?

I think the best thing anyone can do is to move forward with a presumption of overall trust and a willingness to stretch a little to cooperate with the leader’s agenda—but at the same time, have a strong sense of personal revelation, of who you are, and of what your own boundaries are.  And if you find the leader pulling you towards your boundaries, hopefully you’ll have enough confidence in your own ability to receive revelation and a broad enough perspective that you can either say “I don’t agree, but it’s not the end of the world if we do this your way” on the one hand or “no, this is deeply violative and I just can’t do it” on the other.  

In addition, the Church, a House of Order, is organized in a manner that we can seek the counsel of 2 or 3 such that if something is deeply violative we can bring it up to the next rung of the ordered house.  This may result in 2 outcomes - 1.) we may find that the instructions were miscommunicated or misunderstood and it wasn't so deeply violative after all, 2.) the instructions were not of God and a correction in leadership is made.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I don't think this is the same question at all.  The answer to your question is that we leave in a fallen world, and Heavenly Father allows people to use their agency unwisely.

Petty's question, if I understood it is a bit different.  Yes, your answer partially applies, but it doesn't answer this:  if men are called by inspiration, then why was he called in the first place?  If Bishops have the Gift of Discernment, how did his Bishops not discern that there was something wrong?   

@Petty3 I understand your questions because I have been mulling over the same things.  So here's my experience and thoughts, perhaps they will be helpful.

First, of all, as a survivor of abuse, I have always had a difficult time with authority figures, so this story is really hard for me.  To think that trust in an authority figure...someone "called of God" could misuse that trust in such a way, is very hard for me to take.  But each time I pray about it, the Lord gives me peace.  I still don't know the answers, but I know the Lord is in charge.  This is His church, and He has the power to right the wrongs and heal the wounds.  He will in His own due time.

Pres. Uchtdorf in his talk, Patience,, said, "Brigham Young taught that when something came up which he could not comprehend fully, he would pray to the Lord, "Give me patience to wait until I can understand it for myself."  And then Brigham would continue to pray until he could comprehend it."   

So that is my plan...but that isn't all of it.  I can no longer implicitly trust someone just because they have a certain calling.  Yes, I do believe that some callings are inspired and some Bishops have and use the Gift of Discernement.  But for me, this story clearly shows that some do not.  As Pres. Uctdorf said in his talk, Come Join With Us, the Lord has to do His work through imperfect humans....imperfect includes Bishops, and MTC presidents.  From now on, I will pray to get confirmation of new leaders, especially Bishops.  I will also pray for confirmation of new callings for me, and callings to any position that would give someone access to my children.  The Savior did tell us to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.  

Bottom line...yes, revelation and inspiration are real...but we can't always know if others are truly inspired unless we have the spirit of revelation ourselves.  So we need to make sure we have it.  The most effective way I have found to be closer to the Spirit is to read the Book of Mormon daily (really read, not just one verse...), pray (really talk to God, don't just use trite phrases) and be obedient.  

I think, as I've stated elsewhere, that the approach, "Can I trust all my leaders" is missing the overall point. The question is, "Can I trust God?" God leads this church despite imperfect men. God can do His work.

When I follow my leaders it's not because I trust them. It's because I trust God.

God, certainly, if He so willed, could have removed any leader at any time who was abusive in any regard. He did not in this case. I cannot say for sure why, but I trust there is a why. I trust God.

The idea that this MTC presidents' leaders just weren't inspired enough to me is a flawed idea. God is powerful enough regardless. If God so wills, so it will be.

I am mindful of Alma and Amulek and the people of Ammonihah when they burned the believers. Amulek asks Alma, -- How can we witness these awful things? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands and exercise the power of God which is in us and save them from the flames. Alma's reply: The Spirit constraineth me that i must not stretch forth mine hand. For behold they are received to the glory of God and his throne. Thus, he suffers that the people may do this thing that by the hardness of their hearts and by the evil of their doings the judgments he shall pass in his anger may be just. And the blood of those who’ve died shall stand against them when the day of judgment comes. (This is probably not exact as it is from memory, but it's basically right).

Actually...let me look it up:

Alma 14:10-11

10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.

11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

Hmm. Pretty close. I paraphrased somewhat...but not bad.

Edited March 26, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Fether]

12 hours ago, Petty3 said:

The MTC scandal has brought up questions.  Why does Heavenly Father allow people who abuse others to serve in callings of authority?  Why wasn't revelation given to those who called him?  (Or others like him.)  I know there is agency but I still think that inspiration could occur.   He could have been removed from his calling after using his agency incorrectly.

Is revelation and inspiration a real thing  given to leaders or isn't it?  

God won’t do for man what man can do for him/herself. How long ago did this happen. How long was it till she spoke out? Why didn’t she speak out sooner?

[Fether]

10 hours ago, Petty3 said:

I've always had a testimony but over the past 6 months or so I've been shaken.  I've seen the mistakes of too many leaders.  (I know, I know...the church is true not the people.)  I'm honestly seeking answers right now but am not sure if revelation is really occurring.

Lost faith in what? Faith in God? Faith in the fact that this is the true church?

We are taught over and over again in the church that there is an after life. That judgement doesn’t come until judgement day. Our rewards and punishments will not come until the end. God has been saying this, the church has been saying this. You even know the saying “the church is perfect, not the people)... why are you losing faith? Everything the church has claimed is true and still is true even after the scandal. This terrible event isn’t some thing that goes against what has been previously said, it’s just a terrible event. It still falls perfectly in line with what has been said in the past. Scripture speaks of things like this all the time, modern day prophets and apostle do too.

So why are people losing faith over things like this. 

When people say they left the church because they “lost faith”, I wonder if there was any faith to begin with.

[person0]

12 hours ago, Petty3 said:

Why does Heavenly Father allow people who abuse others to serve in callings of authority?

Jesus knew in advance that Judas would betray him, and yet Christ did nothing to remove him from his calling as an apostle.  God gives men agency.  It doesn't matter if they are in a position of authority or not, they can choose good or evil, and God permits them to exercise their agency.  However, at the last day, no one will escape the judgement of God.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

19 minutes ago, Fether said:

God won’t do for man what man can do for him/herself. How long ago did this happen. How long was it till she spoke out? Why didn’t she speak out sooner?

If I understood correctly, she told the Branch President of her Singles ward when she got home.  He didn't believe her. 

She's told other leaders and not been believed since then.  That is one of the things that is troubling about this story. 

Edited March 26, 2018 by LiterateParakeet

[warnerfranklin]

Both agency and revelation are real. 

But remember the Lord told Samuel to anoint Saul as king. Jesus choose Judas.  We know how both of those turned out.  

[Fether]

8 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

If I understood correctly, she told the Branch President of her Singles ward when she got home.  He didn't believe her. 

She's told other leaders and not been believed since then.  That is one of the things that is troubling about this story. 

I guess I just don’t understand it all... If I was wronged that heavily by a leader, I would drag that person to the prophets office by what ever means possible (figuratively speaking of course). I would tell everyone until something happened. Only thing causing me hesitation would be if I was somehow guilty of something too.

But this does bring up the question, why was she in the basement in the first place?   If a church leader ever said “let’s go to the basement” when I didn’t need to be there... I mostly definitely would not go. I’m not saying that maybe she has some role in it... but I’m all not saying she didn’t.