Relevation & Inspiration...MTC abuse


Petty3
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13 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

If I understood correctly, she told the Branch President of her Singles ward when she got home.  He didn't believe her.  :(

She's told other leaders and not been believed since then.  That is one of the things that is troubling about this story. 

The first BP has been interviewed and said didn’t believe her, but coverage had been really irritating.  The first coverage I saw had the BP saying that her story was internally inconsistent; but later variants of the story have the money quote as being that the BP just couldn’t believe an MTC president would do something like that—which of course, feeds into the narrative much more handily.

As for telling later leaders—again, this comes back to what it means for a victim to be “believed”.  The woman here seems not to have expressed any complaints about the way she, personally, was treated or counseled; her anger comes from the fact that the Church would not explain to her the nature of any discipline that may or may not have been imposed upon Mr. Bishop.  

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27 minutes ago, Fether said:

Lost faith in what? Faith in God? Faith in the fact that this is the true church?

We are taught over and over again in the church that there is an after life. That judgement doesn’t come until judgement day. Our rewards and punishments will not come until the end. God has been saying this, the church has been saying this. You even know the saying “the church is perfect, not the people)... why are you losing faith? Everything the church has claimed is true and still is true even after the scandal. This terrible event isn’t some thing that goes against what has been previously said, it’s just a terrible event. It still falls perfectly in line with what has been said in the past. Scripture speaks of things like this all the time, modern day prophets and apostle do too.

So why are people losing faith over things like this. 

When people say they left the church because they “lost faith”, I wonder if there was any faith to begin with.

Just by way of side note: One does not lose faith. One abandons it.

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10 minutes ago, Fether said:

I guess I just don’t understand it all... If I was wronged that heavily by a leader, I would drag that person to the prophets office by what ever means possible (figuratively speaking of course). I would tell everyone until something happened. Only thing causing me hesitation would be if I was somehow guilty of something too.

But this does bring up the question, why was she in the basement in the first place?   If a church leader ever said “let’s go to the basement” when I didn’t need to be there... I mostly definitely would not go. I’m not saying that maybe she has some role in it... but I’m all not saying she didn’t.

I think the missing piece is that you don't understand the mind of a victim if sexual abuse. Apparently,  she had been abused before, which unfortunately happens often. Victims almost always feel tremendous shame and blame themselves.  That makes it difficult to advocate for oneself, especially when your spiritual leaders dont believe you. :(

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Just now, LiterateParakeet said:

I think the missing piece is that you don't understand the mind of a victim if sexual abuse. Apparently,  she had been abused before, which unfortunately happens often. Victims almost always feel tremendous shame and blame themselves.  That makes it difficult to advocate for oneself, especially when your spiritual leaders dont believe you. :(

Exactly. She's also probably terrified of the abuser at this point as wells dragging him into an office would be out of the question.  

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9 minutes ago, Fether said:

I guess I just don’t understand it all... If I was wronged that heavily by a leader, I would drag that person to the prophets office by what ever means possible (figuratively speaking of course). I would tell everyone until something happened. Only thing causing me hesitation would be if I was somehow guilty of something too.

Sure; but this is how sex predators operate—even though the predator bears 99% of the culpability and the victim maybe only 1%, the predator forces the victim to dwell on that 1% to make her think that she deserved it, that no one will believe her, that this whole thing is just an innocent misunderstanding because he misinterpreted her signals and isn’t worth going to the police about.  

If indeed Bishop raped this woman, she probably stayed silent for so long because she told herself exactly the same sorts of things that are in your post.  

In another thread a couple days ago, it was posited that Bishop’s recorded apology might be due to a sincerely innocent person’s propensity to apologize for anything that seems to have caused offense whether or not that thing was objectively wrong.  That propensity, unfortunately, is one shared by many victims of sexual assault.

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What I fear about the things in this thread is the immediate judgement being passed about the truth of the alleged rape. If I may play devil's advocate based on what I have read about the case:

1. The former MTC president does not remember ever doing what he is accused of doing. We can say that the accused always says this, and in many cases they are lying. When he said he was sorry, he had just had surgery, is 84 years old and was "out of it" to the point of perhaps not remembering anything but being apologetic at the idea that he did anything of the sort. 

2. The alleged victim said that this happened in the 1980's, has since left the church and has a criminal history. Now, I know a thing or two of what it is like to be on the receiving end of accusations from a scorned woman and I know how women like this think, if indeed she is lying (I have no idea either way). I can definitely explain my own history but it would take away from the topic at hand. My point is, we truly do not know what her motivation is to come forward (again?) with her accusations over 30 years later. In our current political and social environment, especially with the Me Too Movement, she chose a great time to speak out. This could be because she feels like she'll finally be believed but to me, there are some things that don't align.

3. Hillary Clinton said that all women have the right to be believed when they come forward with such allegations. Unfortunately, this is how our society has gone. When someone cries wolf, the men of the village always come forward with their guns and pitchforks to kill the wolf. When there is no wolf, they find an innocent dog and kill it. The hypocrisy in Clinton's statement is that she, herself, did horrible things to destroy the lives of the women who spoke out about her husband's sexual assault against them. 

Women do not have the right to be believed, they have the right to be heard and everyone, especially the accused, has the right to due process. If we immediately believe them without due process, which many here are doing, the accused always loses. In almost all cases where innocent men are accused of such things, their reputations are destroyed forever because their accusers are believed without due process. Their legacy becomes mired by the thing that has stained them and only those closest to them do not believe the lie. Even in Scouting, when an adult leader is accused of abusing a young man and is later found to be innocent, the church does not allow that leader to be called to a position of leading youth ever again. So, the accused, though innocent, is punished, anyway. 

This type of instance is exactly why the Lord said, "Judge not lest ye be judged." The only people who know the real truth in this instance are the former sister missionary and the MTC president. Even if he turns out to be innocent, his legacy has been destroyed. 

Edited by Crash
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24 minutes ago, Crash said:

Even if he turns out to be innocent, his legacy has been destroyed. 

In reading this, I have realized that I tend to have the mindset “guilty until proven innocent” for both the alleged perpetrator and alleged victim... and this is for really any controversial court case... 

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13 hours ago, Petty3 said:

The MTC scandal has brought up questions.  Why does Heavenly Father allow people who abuse others to serve in callings of authority?  Why wasn't revelation given to those who called him?  (Or others like him.)  I know there is agency but I still think that inspiration could occur.   He could have been removed from his calling after using his agency incorrectly.

Is revelation and inspiration a real thing  given to leaders or isn't it?  

First, let me remind everyone that nothing has been proven yet.  If the accuser does prove out, then we'll know.  Until then, remember that nothing has been proven yet.

/End disclaimer.

In an answer to your question (This is not an accusation, just a question to get you thinking).  I'd like to ask if you've ever been in charge of something that you're woefully unqualified for.  Have you been in charge of a large number of people that you really have no control over?  It is extremely difficult.

Sometimes a bishop, for example, will call someone who really isn't worthy to fill a position because that is the person who needs to do a particular thing in a particular calling.  The Lord has imperfect tools.  But he needs to get a job done.  And sometimes a wicked man (like Nebuchadnezzar) is used to bring about His purposes.

Why did the Lord raise up David to be King of all Israel, knowing that he'd fall in the end and succumb to lust and murder?

Why did Jesus call Judas to be an APOSTLE?

Why did the Lord call Christopher Columbus to be the one to open the path between the old world and the new?

Why did... The list goes on and on. 

The fact is that the Lord sees the big picture of what needs to get done over many years, even centuries and millennia.  To do that, little, seemingly inconsequential things are required throughout all time among all people.  And to get all this done, sometimes evil is allowed it's day.

If all you want is a perfect world where God only lets good people do the leading and everything works out perfectly, you don't understand the nature of reality, agency, and the fickle nature of people.  Everyone is subject to sin.  Everyone is subject to falling from a great height.  It is a sad truth that the higher you are, the harder your fall.

But in spite of any evil, any hardship, any crime, any offense toward God or man, His plan will win out.  It may not be easy, but His word is true.

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1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

If I understood correctly, she told the Branch President of her Singles ward when she got home.  He didn't believe her.  :(

She's told other leaders and not been believed since then.  That is one of the things that is troubling about this story. 

The feminist narrative would have us believe that this (assuming it happened that way) occurred because Men Do Not Believe Women. But it doesn't take a great deal of imagination to come up with other scenarios. Does the woman have a history of telling stories? Does she rave about other topics on a consistent basis? Has she accused other men in her ward of evil doings, men who have no other reason for suspicion over them besides her accusations?

I'm uncomfortable writing this as it will certainly be seen by some as a defense of the accused. It is no such thing. It is a defense of rational thought and forbearance, and against ugly feminist ideology that paints Men as abusers and Women as victims. Bishop's own words seem to lend credence to the idea that he was far less than an ideal presiding authority, and that he engaged in some sort of sexually exploitative, perhaps even abusive, activities. But from the small amount I've read, the accuser comes off as unreliable, accusing Bishop first of fondling, later upgraded to full-on forcible rape. If Bishop sounds like someone with regrets for badly abusing his Church leadership position, the accuser sounds like someone whose word not be immediately accepted at face value.

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4 hours ago, Fether said:

Why didn’t she speak out sooner?

@person0 asked this question too, and without a split second to think about it, I knew the answer (that she did speak out sooner is irrelevant - had she not, I knew why not, yet you two feel the need to ask - you don't understand why).  I would be willing to be that the majority of women wouldn't have to think about it either, and would come up with the same answer.  (It's possible, hopeful even, that the younger the woman, the more likely it is that she'll have to think about it.)

NOTE (cuz ain't no one gonna like what comes next): I am not, herein, trying to blame anyone, find fault with any system, complain about gender roles, stereotypes, or education, or whatever.  I'm just telling you my own answer to that question and that I believe the majority of women would give the same answer - right or wrong.

3 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

If I understood correctly, she told the Branch President of her Singles ward when she got home.  He didn't believe her.  :(

She's told other leaders and not been believed since then.  That is one of the things that is troubling about this story. 

Here's part of the answer, and it's a part that I expect the majority of women know.

3 hours ago, Fether said:

I guess I just don’t understand it all... If I was wronged that heavily by a leader, I would drag that person to the prophets office by what ever means possible (figuratively speaking of course). I would tell everyone until something happened. Only thing causing me hesitation would be if I was somehow guilty of something too.

But this does bring up the question, why was she in the basement in the first place?   If a church leader ever said “let’s go to the basement” when I didn’t need to be there... I mostly definitely would not go. I’m not saying that maybe she has some role in it... but I’m all not saying she didn’t.

And there, you're answering your own question - and again, known to women.

We have been raised in a world1 that says:

  • You should be ashamed.
  • You're damaged / ruined / defiled - you're less than you were.
  • You shouldn't have been there.
  • You're nothing, he's a big wig, without really solid proof and three witnesses (preferably male), no one will believe you.
  • You should have known better.
  • You weren't righteous enough to recognize and flee from the danger.
  • You were wearing the wrong thing / saying the wrong words / smiling at the wrong time / giving the wrong looks.
  • You were gullible and foolish.
  • If you'd spent more time in prayer or scripture study, the Lord would have protected you.
  • etc.
  • All of which adds up to - it's your fault.

No matter how much your brain tells you that's a lot of garbage, when it's subconsciously drilled into your head over a lifetime (even though you're not sure how, or by whom), it can be almost impossible to overcome.

1Now I would also bet that the majority of men are saying: "What planet are you on?  We weren't raised in this world.  Who taught you such nonsense?  How did you come to this conclusion?  That world is long past, if it ever existed."  And yet...

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16 minutes ago, zil said:

We have been raised in a world1 that says:

  • You should be ashamed.
  • You're damaged / ruined / defiled - you're less than you were.
  • You shouldn't have been there.
  • You're nothing, he's a big wig, without really solid proof and three witnesses (preferably male), no one will believe you.
  • You should have known better.
  • You weren't righteous enough to recognize and flee from the danger.
  • You were wearing the wrong thing / saying the wrong words / smiling at the wrong time / giving the wrong looks.
  • You were gullible and foolish.
  • If you'd spent more time in prayer or scripture study, the Lord would have protected you.
  • etc.
  • All of which adds up to - it's your fault.

Perhaps, in some isolated section of backwoods some of this may be taught, but in the world I live in its quite the opposite. 

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6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Perhaps, in some isolated section of backwoods some of this may be taught, but in the world I live in its quite the opposite. 

Like I said, this will sound completely foreign to men - I don't believe they were raised in this world - I don't believe the message was sent in a way that they would perceive it.  If we're lucky, it's foreign to younger women.  If we're even more lucky, it's foreign to all but a few regions.  But I suspect it's common to an age range and at least this country (the US).

Meanwhile, except for 2 years from ages 6-8, no one would call the cities I grew up in "backwoods", nor the family uneducated or ignorant, nor the sort who would teach that garbage.  It came out of the world, subconsciously without me ever realizing it was inbound, and I'm quite confident it's not just my subconscious that it went into.  Others in this thread, including at least one male, have posted along the same lines.

Note that my post did not say any of that was true, right, good, or even intentional teaching on anyone's part (though I'm certain Satan is hard at work in this area) - but if one wants to be rid of it, denying that it exists except amongst some overly inbred hillbillies is not the way to go about it.

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28 minutes ago, zil said:

No matter how much your brain tells you that's a lot of garbage, when it's subconsciously drilled into your head over a lifetime (even though you're not sure how, or by whom), it can be almost impossible to overcome.

Coming from someone with an extremely high level of credibility, this must be considered very seriously.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

@zil thank you for your post. You totally nailed it.  You are right, women know this. My daughter  (since you mentioned younger women, she's 19) understands this.  Well said!  

@Vort Your post made me laugh so hard...not at you...I laughed because the first line was like you read my mind. I do want to clarify though..."not all men".  Some do believe, some try, and some flat out don't. I get it, the ones who don't believe aren't doing it out of malice. They simply haven't lived in the same world as women, as Zil explained so well.

And I'm sure you know what we would say about the rest of your post.  

Again, @zil thanks for your post. 

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16 minutes ago, zil said:

Like I said, this will sound completely foreign to men - I don't believe they were raised in this world - I don't believe the message was sent in a way that they would perceive it.  If we're lucky, it's foreign to younger women.  If we're even more lucky, it's foreign to all but a few regions.  But I suspect it's common to an age range and at least this country (the US).

Meanwhile, except for 2 years from ages 6-8, no one would call the cities I grew up in "backwoods", nor the family uneducated or ignorant, nor the sort who would teach that garbage.  It came out of the world, subconsciously without me ever realizing it was inbound, and I'm quite confident it's not just my subconscious that it went into.  Others in this thread, including at least one male, have posted along the same lines.

Note that my post did not say any of that was true, right, good, or even intentional teaching on anyone's part (though I'm certain Satan is hard at work in this area) - but if one wants to be rid of it, denying that it exists except amongst some overly inbred hillbillies is not the way to go about it.

Being rid of it comes down to properly educating people of the lies and tactics that the liberal left social justice warriors use which just arent true. I know that they push these lies trying to get everyone convinced that the male patriarchal order in society is evil and has been evil forever. Satan does use lies and in todays world, especially in cases like this he wants the world to see that the patriarchal order in society is what caused this. He wants to drive a wedge between the genders and pit women against men. The SJW's are creating a new brand of sexism in the world and attacking the divine roles of men and women. 

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5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Being rid of it comes down to properly educating people of the lies and tactics that the liberal left social justice warriors use which just arent true. I know that they push these lies trying to get everyone convinced that the male patriarchal order in society is evil and has been evil forever. Satan does use lies and in todays world, especially in cases like this he wants the world to see that the patriarchal order in society is what caused this. He wants to drive a wedge between the genders and pit women against men. The SJW's are creating a new brand of sexism in the world and attacking the divine roles of men and women. 

You're missing the point. 

 

36 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Perhaps, in some isolated section of backwoods some of this may be taught, but in the world I live in its quite the opposite. 

Only because you are a MAN. 

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23 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Perhaps, in some isolated section of backwoods some of this may be taught, but in the world I live in its quite the opposite. 

A very fine line between something being taught and something being perceived/inferred.

i think Elizabeth Smart highlighted how teaching one thing so much, so hard, etc., plants emotional landmines that can almost destroy a person when they are detonated far later in life.  i'm not posting this as some demand for the mormon church to change - but her observation, in my opinion, is deadly accurate.  

"I think the power of faith is amazing, the hope and the healing that it can bring to people," Elizabeth Smart said in the interview, crediting her LDS faith for helping her survive and overcome the nightmare of her abduction.

"But I also think there's another side of it that can be potentially very harmful, especially when a lot of religions teach that sexual relations are meant for marriage... It's so stressed that, girls in particular, tie their worth to their virginity, or, for lack of a better word, purity."

And Elizabeth Smart had been one of those girls. 

"I did make that promise to myself that I was going to wait until marriage before I had sex... Well, then I was kidnapped and I was raped, and one of the first thoughts I had was, 'No one is ever going to want to marry me now: I'm worthless, I'm filthy, I'm dirty.' I think every rape survivor feels those same feelings, but having that with the pressure of faith compounded on top—it was almost crippling."

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1 minute ago, LiterateParakeet said:

You're missing the point. 

 

Only because you are a MAN. 

Clue me in then because in the society I grew up in we were raised with morals, knowing right from wrong, treating women with the highest utmost respect. We were raised to acknowledge that all forms of abuse by anyone, especially men abusing women and children was absolutely deplorable. My neighbors knew this, community knew this, society knew this. So, please clue me in.

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5 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

A very fine line between something being taught and something being perceived/inferred.

i think Elizabeth Smart highlighted how teaching one thing so much, so hard, etc., plants emotional landmines that can almost destroy a person when they are detonated far later in life.  i'm not posting this as some demand for the mormon church to change - but her observation, in my opinion, is deadly accurate.  

"I think the power of faith is amazing, the hope and the healing that it can bring to people," Elizabeth Smart said in the interview, crediting her LDS faith for helping her survive and overcome the nightmare of her abduction.

"But I also think there's another side of it that can be potentially very harmful, especially when a lot of religions teach that sexual relations are meant for marriage... It's so stressed that, girls in particular, tie their worth to their virginity, or, for lack of a better word, purity."

And Elizabeth Smart had been one of those girls. 

"I did make that promise to myself that I was going to wait until marriage before I had sex... Well, then I was kidnapped and I was raped, and one of the first thoughts I had was, 'No one is ever going to want to marry me now: I'm worthless, I'm filthy, I'm dirty.' I think every rape survivor feels those same feelings, but having that with the pressure of faith compounded on top—it was almost crippling."

I believe its Satan that plants those very real thoughts in their minds. I dont believe its a product of what society teaches, especially not anything to do with what the Lord and his church teach.

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4 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I think the missing piece is that you don't understand the mind of a victim if sexual abuse. Apparently,  she had been abused before, which unfortunately happens often. Victims almost always feel tremendous shame and blame themselves.  That makes it difficult to advocate for oneself, especially when your spiritual leaders dont believe you. :(

Are we just assuming that this is what actually happened to her then? I fear that in all of these types of cases, the accuser is always correct and the accused is always guilty. 

Please don't take my point as advocating for either one but statements like this is solely in favor of the accuser in this case. I think it's wise to make statements about sexually abused people in general, which some of your post does, but to then draw the conclusion that this woman is feeling this way when we have no evidence that she was indeed abused, is dangerous. 

Continuing the narrative that he is guilty and she is a victim when none of us have knowledge of the truth is dangerous. Please do not take my words as condoning anyone's actions. I am seeing valid points on both sides of the argument of what the world of sexual abuse is seen by men and women. It's just that if we have already passed judgement that she is the victim and he is the perpetrator without having any knowledge of the truth, we, ourselves, will come under condemnation. 

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Clue me in then because in the society I grew up in we were raised with morals, knowing right from wrong, treating women with the highest utmost respect. We were raised to acknowledge that all forms of abuse by anyone, especially men abusing women and children was absolutely deplorable. My neighbors knew this, community knew this, society knew this. So, please clue me in.

Make that two of us. My father has always shown a great amount of respect for my mother. My grandfather did the same with my grandmother. All of my brothers and I were shown how to treat women respectfully. I can tell you that from a man's perspective, this has been exploited by the feminist movement. Many men do not want any woman to feel that they have been mistreated, so it's easy for them to cave. 

Are there predators? Obviously. But is it a widespread epidemic that being a man means that we don't understand how women feel about issues? Hogwash!

I am a victim of abuse from an extremely manipulative woman. My son and his sister are victims of abuse from an extremely manipulative woman (their mother). In that, I'd say that anyone who says that abuse is a woman's issue or that men don't understand the woman's perspective, you are not being honest. 

I have seen statements from women who have never been abused think that men are only good for their wallets and reproduction because that is what society has taught them. The emasculation of men is very real and statements like "men don't understand" further exacerbate that feeling, so all of the men who have never thought that way are guilted into submission of this feminist view. Look at two shows that were on TV a few years ago, The King of Queens and Everybody Loves Raymond. In both of these shows, the men were portrayed as bumbling idiots with hourly wage jobs and their beautiful wives were portrayed as driven and smart. 

I remember reading a book about a doctor who's wife treated him like he was an idiot all the time. Here was a guy who could perform complex surgeries on the most complicated system in the world but his wife had no faith that he knew how to operate a lawn mower properly. 

So, forgive me if I do not accept the narrative that men don't get it!

Edited by Crash
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29 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Clue me in then 

@zil explained it perfectly.  I can't think of anything I could add that would be helpful.  If you disagree, you disagree.

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21 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I believe its Satan that plants those very real thoughts in their minds. I dont believe its a product of what society teaches, especially not anything to do with what the Lord and his church teach.

Satan does put those thoughts in the minds of victims that they are unworthy and filthy and dirty.  And once the thoughts are there, they are hard to remove.  

And I think that @zil has it right and those abused do feel it's their fault (or at least partially their fault.) 

 

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30 minutes ago, Crash said:

Are we just assuming that this is what actually happened to her then? I fear that in all of these types of cases, the accuser is always correct and the accused is always guilty. 

At the very least, he admitted to fondly the breasts of a Sister missionary.  That is heinous enough, especially given the power differential, and age differences....plenty bad enough for us to have this conversation. 

It seems that many men feel as you do that the accused is always guilty.  Could that be because you are men, and you empathize more with another man?  

And yes, women tend to believe the woman or the victim (if it is a boy or man), because we know what it's like to feel like prey.  

 

14 minutes ago, Crash said:

So, forgive me if I do not accept the narrative that men don't get it!

If you reread my response to Vort above, you will see that I said some men get it, some try and some don't.  

Edited by LiterateParakeet
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