New Church policy regarding Bishop and Stake President interviews

[The Folk Prophet]

@Dgal think of it like physical injury, etc.

If someone breaks their leg the bishop or other elders in the church might administer to them by the laying of on hands for healing. They also send them to the hospital to get x-rays and a cast or whatever the doctor recommends. The bishop doesn't set the broken leg, nor should he. If he happens to be trained in first aid he might do a splint or something -- which is entirely irrelevant to his bishoping duties.

There is little to no difference in matters of the brain or psyche, except, perhaps, wherein they are tied more closely to sin in many cases. A bishop's counseling doesn't replace or supplant appropriate medical, psychological, and/or scientific means. I say "appropriate", because it can supplant SOME other means in some cases. But it is not the rule, nor would most consider it wise in any way to blow off other legitimate means of dealing with infirmities just because one sees their bishop.

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

I would say "some things are not their specialization" would be a better way of saying it.  People have different skill sets, and sometimes you need a referral. 

Oh, totally agree. And I think most bishops would agree with us as well. 

[The Folk Prophet]

14 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

The LDS culture is changing

You believe the culture of the church has been, "Don't ever get practical help outside your bishop" heretofore?

[Jane_Doe]

Thinking on this more...

Many fond memories of my childhood are of 1-on-1 moments with leaders.  

....I remember one time- I was 12, and their was this boy named Ross in the ward that really liked me and kept pressuring me into giving him a kiss for his 13th birthday.  I did not share the feeling back-- rather i was/am an abuse victim and the thought of giving him a kiss radiated SO wrong with me / absolutely terrified me.  I didn't want to talk to my parents abut it- we had an extremely rocky relationship.  I did NOT want anyone to know about Ross.

Eventually though, I did turn to my Beehive advisor.  She was a woman named "Julie", about 21 years of age.   She assured my terrified self it would be ok, and I shouldn't feel pressured at all.  When I didn't immediately relax, she came up with the idea of giving him a Hersey kiss instead!  So we went to the store, and bought a giant bag of Hersey kisses!  And me of course, being a chocolate-holic, ate them all.  The last time I saw Ross he asked me "hey, don't I get my birthday kiss?", and I laughed and said "nope, I ate them all!", and walked away.

It... on one hand the whole story was kind of silly, but on the same hand also deeply profound.  Julie helped me have confidence n myself, to say "no", and have it be ok.  With her I felt special- because I was special- she just helped me see that fact.  Our relationship help empower me, and see my own beauty.  It was just a special moment, just the two of us.... honestly I've never told this story before and am crying typing it up now.   It was special.

 

We've heard a lot about bad things which can happen 1-on-1 the last few weeks.  And certainly they can- I personally know that all too well.  But I also know all too well the many good things that can happen 1-on-1 too, so many of the good times which outnumber the bad.  The new church policy... it is a prudent and needed move, I'm not going to argue with that.  But there's also something which is lost here too, and part of me-- the part that remember Julie and so many other special moments that helped me through troubled times... part of me also mourns today.

[person0]

42 minutes ago, Vort said:

I don't think there is a clear separation between a spiritual issue and a psychological issue.

Reminded me of this:

Quote

2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,

3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:

4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.

5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
. . .
8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.

9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
(Mark 5:2-9)

I bet the man probably would have been just fine if they had therapists back then.  

[NightSG]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

It's always interesting to me to see people who reject the Church's authority and spiritual claims, yet seem to think they're qualified to tell the Church how it ought to administer.

Almost as interesting as seeing people who reject critical thinking and then think they're qualified to tell people with reasonable opinions how they ought to think.

Besides, do you want volunteer firefighters showing up at your house, and just yelling encouragement as you burn to death because they haven't attended hours of training on how to put out the fire?  What about the volunteers of the US military?  Should we just do away with their training?

Edited March 27, 2018 by NightSG

[NightSG]

1 hour ago, person0 said:

Reminded me of this:

I bet the man probably would have been just fine if they had therapists back then.  

Well, they might have been able to fix that other guy's Messiah complex so he'd leave Legion and those poor pigs alone.

[Just_A_Guy]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

Assuming you're talking about LDS bishops and the wards (not parishes) they lead, I disagree. The bishop is not filling a paid position; he is volunteering his time as a leader. A bishop already spends 20-40 hours per week in unpaid service in his calling. To expect him to attend hours of training on top of that, and in effect become a certified counselor, is outrageous.

I mostly agree with you; but on the other hand—I’ve seen American stakes offer to pay for male scout leaders to do Woodbadge.  A two- or three- day “Bishop’s Boot Camp” with seminars on basic mental health disorders, trauma awareness, identifying abuse, dealing with bat-shizzle crazy people in a productive way, etc. might be more feasible than we tend to think.  

[NightSG]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I disagree.

Have you set up disagreement macros on your computer yet so you don't have to actually type your 8,405,392 dissenting messages a day?

 

[Just_A_Guy]

Just now, NightSG said:

Have you set up disagreement macros on your computer yet so you don't have to actually type your 8,405,392 dissenting messages a day?

 

They’re actually quite easy to install, being obtainable pre-programmed from the same guys who generate the “snide/inappropriate/kvetchy randomizer” algorithm used by some other folks here.

[NightSG]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Everyone recognizes this except the very rare straight-up egomaniac.

So you had to refer to one of those recognition charts?

2 hours ago, Vort said:

I don't think there is a clear separation between a spiritual issue and a psychological issue.

Not necessarily; some psychological issues can be entirely physical in origin, and some physical issues can pretty accurately mimic psychological issues.

[NightSG]

3 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

They’re actually quite easy to install, being obtainable pre-programmed from the same guys who generate the “snide/inappropriate/kvetchy randomizer” algorithm used by some other folks here.

So you attribute to random chance that which is beyond your feeble comprehension?  

[NightSG]

10 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I mostly agree with you; but on the other hand—I’ve seen American stakes offer to pay for male scout leaders to do Woodbadge.  A two- or three- day “Bishop’s Boot Camp” with seminars on basic mental health disorders, trauma awareness, identifying abuse, dealing with bat-shizzle crazy people in a productive way, etc. might be more feasible than we tend to think.  

Can it be a real boot camp, with some retired Marine DIs reliving their glory days by running the camp?  Please?

[Just_A_Guy]

2 minutes ago, NightSG said:

So you attribute to random chance that which is beyond your feeble comprehension?  

Well, how “incomprehensible” are a thousand monkeys banging away on a thousand keyboards, really?  

[NightSG]

Just now, Just_A_Guy said:

Well, how “incomprehensible” are a thousand monkeys banging away on a thousand keyboards, really?  

That's going to be infinitely slower than the infinite number of monkeys needed to properly conduct the experiment.  AFAIK, nobody has yet managed to get infinite monkeys to do anything together.

Reddit is getting close, though.

[Just_A_Guy]

1 minute ago, NightSG said:

Can it be a real boot camp, with some retired Marine DIs reliving their glory days by running the camp?  Please?

Only if they curse.  

[Just_A_Guy]

Just now, NightSG said:

That's going to be infinitely slower than the infinite number of monkeys needed to properly conduct the experiment.  AFAIK, nobody has yet managed to get infinite monkeys to do anything together.

Reddit is getting close, though.

Yeah, well, that’s Reddit.  Here on MormonHub, we aren’t that talented—a thousand monkeys will do just fine, thanks.

[truthseaker]

9 hours ago, MormonGator said:

I'm not saying that I agree with @truthseaker, but at first it does seem a bit odd to get counseling from someone who doesn't have mental health training and experience.

Again, I'm not saying I agree with them, but I can see why someone who isn't LDS would think that way. 

Thank you, I'm actually a psychologist with an active counselling practice so I do have a very strong opinion on this issue.

[truthseaker]

9 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Surely you don’t mean to suggest that holding spiritual authority entails an ethical obligation to never actually use that authority?

I work in child protection.  While I would agree that you don’t want lay spiritual leaders going around diagnosing and treating disorders out of the DSM-V, trying to limit them from giving general life-advice or from helping parishioners to work through the consequences of a particular choice throigh the lens of a particular spiritual worldview, goes WAY too far.  Especially given that in my experience more than a few “qualified therapists” really have no idea what in Sam Hades they’re doing; whereas what I’m hearing from you—carried to its logical conclusion—would suggest that a parent of a sex abuse victim has no business, say, helping their child select a university.  

I’m disinclined to isolate people from meaningful sources of support just because some PsyD or LCSW with a god-complex doesn’t want the competition.

I'm saying they should not abuse that authority, and offering counselling when you are not qualified to do so is just that, abusing your spiritual authority over another.

[truthseaker]

9 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

@truthseaker is doing more than saying non-professional counselors shouldn't counsel.  I get that.  She is also saying you shouldn't go to your bishop for a referral.  I don't get that. 

Again, maybe I'm reading her comments wrong.   "The point is no one should be going for counselling or referrals for counselling to someone not qualified to make that judgement."

In other words, "No one should go to a non-counselor for a counselling referral".  Am I misreading?

Exactly you should not go to your spiritual leader for a referral for a mental health professional, they are not qualified to make that referral, you should go to a doctor.

[The Folk Prophet]

39 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Have you set up disagreement macros on your computer yet so you don't have to actually type your 8,405,392 dissenting messages a day?

[truthseaker]

9 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I don't understand your bolded statement here.  Consider the following:

"Fred, we need counselling, but we're poor. Let's go to the bishop and see if he'll refer us to an LDS counselor and pay for it."
"Ok Martha."
"Hi Fred and Martha, I'm glad you came to me for help.  Yes indeed, here is the contact info of the LDS counselor this ward has been working with for a long time.  She's very good at what she does, and I'm sure she can help you.  I understand you're having financial hardship, and I'm happy to use fast offerings to pay for a few sessions. How about you come see me in two months and we'll touch bases on how things are going."

This happens quite often.  I would be surprised if you could find a finance clerk who has never written a check for counseling.  Are you sure there's something wrong here?

This situation is more about getting financial help to pay for counselling, they have already decided that they need the counselling.  Asking your church for financial help is fine, but I strongly believe the referral should be coming from a doctor, then the church can pay for those sessions if they want to help the member.

The bigger issue is with the bishop doing the counselling himself.

[The Folk Prophet]

37 minutes ago, NightSG said:

So you had to refer to one of those recognition charts?

Not sure what you're going for here. I suspect it's just the jerk-of-the-week award. Keep it up. When the time for voting comes up you'll be a shoe-in.

[truthseaker]

8 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

FYI, I'm a ward finance clerk.  I write 98% of the checks that get written.  Here's a breakdown of the kinds of checks I write, from most often to least often:

- Reimbursement checks (folks bought the food for some church-sponsored event and turned in their receipts.)
- Utilities payments
- Car payments
- Counseling
- Rent/mortgage payment
- Home/car repairs
- Medical bills

Yeah, Bishops refer people to (and pay for) counseling all the time.  I've written counseling checks for the missionary that came home early and nobody knows why. I've written counseling checks for the couple who lost another baby early in pregnancy.  And for the recently divorced.  And for random individuals or couples that the casual observer has no clue something is up.  I've written two, maybe three this year. 

I'm confused why @truthseaker would think there is something wrong here.  Fast offerings are wonderful things that bless people's lives, and it all starts with a bishop's referral.

There is no problem with someones church paying for counselling sessions, but ethically the referral needs to come from a doctor, to make sure everything is above board and non biased.

[omegaseamaster75]

1 minute ago, truthseaker said:

There is no problem with someones church paying for counselling sessions, but ethically the referral needs to come from a doctor, to make sure everything is above board and non biased.

When an individual goes through church counseling services and the church pays the Bishop receives updates on the counselling and the individuals progress.  I would never agree to have the church pay for counseling if i needed it just because of the privacy invasion that is implicit in it.