Repentance after death


pam
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Interesting I have observed – during this mortal life – individuals embrace the gospel, be baptized, marry in the temple and rise to greatness in the church (Kingdom of G-d) only to become bitter and turn – even to excommunication – then to have another spiritual awaking, repent, be rebaptized and restore their temple marriage.  We can speculate if the first conversion was a chance.  We can also argue that they sinned against the light and had their chance and thus were excommunicated. 

I also have known bitter enemies that have been preached to and know doctrine better than most members – but then, late in life to repent, be baptized and obtain temple ordinances.

I do not know what a chance to hear the gospel is or what that means.  If there is a chance someone may fall (regardless of their high and glorious place) I believe that someone else could repent.

But I have learned and observed something about blessings.  There are times that we make choices and lose blessings – those lost blessings are gone forever.  But we can repent and receive new blessings.  Perhaps not as great as the lost blessings but if we continue to live by covenant perhaps greater blessings – But lost blessings are lost.

Perhaps a story – Many years ago as a young engineer I moved into a neighborhood in Seattle.  There I made a friend – a good guy – a guy that would help his neighbor.  He and his wife were members – the wife one of my wife’s dearest friends.  But my friend would never take his wife to the temple. Years later he was unfaithful to his wife that finely divorced him – a few years later she met a wonderful man and they married in the temple.  Then the children wished to be sealed to the new stepfather and did so.  I have remained friends with the guy over the years – always encouraging him to come back.  With his health failing he finely was rebaptized.  He repented and asked his wife and children to forgive him – they have.  After his baptism, I encouraged him many times to get his act together and go to the temple – he always said it was too late for him.  This last week I flew out to his funeral.  His first wife has pass away but his kids and put together his funeral.  Talking to his oldest daughter and her husband – they told me that a little over a year ago he had finely gone to and made his temple covenants.  He has lost forever his wife and his children – those blessings are gone – but I believe his mistakes are wiped clean and he is forgiven.  I do not know but I believe he can have all the blessings that come from repentance – but sadly his lovely wife and children are sealed to another.

The point is – no one should ever put off repentance - nor should anyone transgress the laws and break the covenants.  There is no advantage (ever) in delaying repentance or transgressing the law and breaking the covenants. Though we can repent later – some of our dearest blessing can still be forever lost when we take a wrong path or delay repentance.

 

The Traveler

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On 4/6/2018 at 9:30 PM, pam said:

So this is a subject I have a really hard time understanding.  Mainly because I keep seeing so many conflicting opinions on the subject.

So I have always learned that this life is the time to repent and get our lives in order and on the right path.  Yet many say that after death we have the chance to repent so that we can progress.

I understand those that have never had the opportunity to learn of Jesus Christ or of the gospel.  I totally get that.  But what of those who didn't do that who did have the opportunity.  Members who chose their own path instead of following the commandments and gospel teachings and principles. 

I guess I just don't get why anyone who chose NOT to repent would get another chance in the next life.  What would be the purpose of our journey and testing in this life?

I realize that this is all between the individual and God but I still get confused over the conflicting opinions.

 

The “day of this life” spoken of by Alma includes the time spirits spend in the spirit world after death of the body and will not come to an end until the time of the last resurrection and the final judgement. The reason why we know this to be true is because the Apostle Peter tells us the gospel of Christ was preached to the wicked spirits who were incarcerated in the spirit prison because they had previously rebelled against the gospel while they were living on earth during the days of Noah. Peter makes it known that God considers the spirit world conversions of formerly rebellious souls to be as valid as if they had occurred while they were dwelling on the face of the earth in the flesh. This is why Peter testifies that after the spirits of the departed dead receive the gospel in the spirit prison they are “judged according to men in the flesh” (I.e. as if they are still living in the flesh) because they have made the conscious decision to accept the gospel and live according to God’s commandments while dwelling as spirits in the realm of the departed dead. As the following verses of scripture also make perfectly clear, the gospel is meant for ALL the spirits of the departed dead, not just for those spirits who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel message while dwelling in the flesh...

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to ALL the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord (i.e. the day of this life when it is still possible to believe in the gospel of Christ and repent) and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto ALL who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, OR IN TRANSGRESSION, HAVING REJECTED THE PROPHETS (!!!).

33 These (including the above category of those who rejected the prophets while they were in the flesh) were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands... (D&C 138)

As long as there is even just one legally empowered spirit in the spirit world who is authorized to preach the gospel of Christ to the spirits of the departed dead, and as long as there are still a handful of mortals on earth who can perform authorized vicarious saving ordinances for the dead in the temples of God, in a very real legal sense — and in the eyes of God — the “day of this life” will not have come to an end. As long as the formerly rebellious spirits are endowed with the right to choose and have sufficient humility and faith to embrace the gospel — and as long as there are mortals on earth who are still able to perform and receive vicarious saving ordinances in behalf of the departed dead — “the day of this life” (I.e. the day when there is still time remaining to accept Christ and receive God’s salvation) will not have come to an end. The day of this life, meaning mortality, which includes the time we spend in the spirit world after death, will not come to end until very the last soul has been resurrected and is on way to the final judgement. Simply put, “the day of this life” refers to the fallen state. And, most assuredly, we are still in the fallen state after death.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jersey Boy
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10 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

The “day of this life” spoken of by Alma includes the time spirits spend in the spirit world after death of the body and will not come to an end until the time of the last resurrection and the final judgement. The reason why we know this to be true is because the Apostle Peter tells us the gospel of Christ was preached to the wicked spirits who were incarcerated in the spirit prison because they had previously rebelled against the gospel while they were living on earth during the days of Noah. Peter makes it known that God considers the spirit world conversions of formerly rebellious souls to be as valid as if they had occurred while they were dwelling on the face of the earth in the flesh. This is why Peter testifies that after the spirits of the departed dead receive the gospel in the spirit prison they are “judged according to men in the flesh” (I.e. as if they are still living in the flesh) because they have made the conscious decision to accept the gospel and live according to God’s commandments while dwelling as spirits in the realm of the departed dead. As the following verses of scripture also make perfectly clear, the gospel is meant for ALL the spirits of the departed dead, not just for those spirits who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel message while dwelling in the flesh...

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to ALL the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord (i.e. the day of this life when it is still possible to believe in the gospel of Christ and repent) and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto ALL who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, OR IN TRANSGRESSION, HAVING REJECTED THE PROPHETS (!!!).

33 These (including the above category of those who rejected the prophets while they were in the flesh) were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands... (D&C 138)

As long as there is even just one legally empowered spirit in the spirit world who is authorized to preach the gospel of Christ to the spirits of the departed dead, and as long as there are still a handful of mortals on earth who can perform authorized vicarious saving ordinances for the dead in the temples of God, in a very real legal sense — and in the eyes of God — the “day of this life” will not have come to an end. As long as the formerly rebellious spirits are endowed with the right to choose and have sufficient humility and faith to embrace the gospel — and as long as there are mortals on earth who are still able to perform and receive vicarious saving ordinances in behalf of the departed dead — “the day of this life” (I.e. the day when there is still time remaining to accept Christ and receive God’s salvation) will not have come to an end. The day of this life, meaning mortality, which includes the time we spend in the spirit world after death, will not come to end until very the last soul has been resurrected and is on way to the final judgement. Simply put, “the day of this life” refers to the fallen state. And, most assuredly, we are still in the fallen state after death.

 

 

 

 

I like this explanation because it gives a clear definition as to when repentance is possible - i.e. anytime before resurrection. I'll need to search it out more before I can say that I fully agree however. I don't suppose you can offer more scriptural support or teachings of prophets to suggest that the day of this life includes life in the spirit world after our mortal life ends?

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On 4/6/2018 at 9:30 PM, pam said:

So this is a subject I have a really hard time understanding.  Mainly because I keep seeing so many conflicting opinions on the subject.

So I have always learned that this life is the time to repent and get our lives in order and on the right path.  Yet many say that after death we have the chance to repent so that we can progress.

I understand those that have never had the opportunity to learn of Jesus Christ or of the gospel.  I totally get that.  But what of those who didn't do that who did have the opportunity.  Members who chose their own path instead of following the commandments and gospel teachings and principles. 

I guess I just don't get why anyone who chose NOT to repent would get another chance in the next life.  What would be the purpose of our journey and testing in this life?

I realize that this is all between the individual and God but I still get confused over the conflicting opinions.

I think our "chances" and "opportunities" are really another term for agency. Those who follow the light of Christ even though they may not have the Gospel find their agency expanded and carry this intelligence into the next life (D&C 130:18-19). They have broadened chances to repent and progress in the spirit world prior to the resurrection. Those who reject the light of Christ even though they may have received all the doctrines, covenants and ordinances of the Restored Gospel, have their agency reduced and carry this self-imposed disadvantage into the next life. They still have a chance to repent, but it is greatly diminished to the point they may not have much, if any, desire to progress.

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1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I think our "chances" and "opportunities" are really another term for agency. Those who follow the light of Christ even though they may not have the Gospel find their agency expanded and carry this intelligence into the next life (D&C 130:18-19). They have broadened chances to repent and progress in the spirit world prior to the resurrection. Those who reject the light of Christ even though they may have received all the doctrines, covenants and ordinances of the Restored Gospel, have their agency reduced and carry this self-imposed disadvantage into the next life. They still have a chance to repent, but it is greatly diminished to the point they may not have much, if any, desire to progress.

I disagree. I think the wicked will have more of a desire to repent. Hell isn't blissful.

Edited by Rob Osborn
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6 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I disagree. I think the wicked will have more of a desire to repent. Hell isn't blissful.

As unimaginable as it may seem, some people prefer misery to bliss. That, or they find the cost of bliss higher than misery, Why else would wickedness abound given that "wickedness never was happiness"?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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8 hours ago, wenglund said:

As unimaginable as it may seem, some people prefer misery to bliss. That, or they find the cost of bliss higher than misery, Why else would wickedness abound given that "wickedness never was happiness"?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Have you ever seen an intervention?  They tend to confirm exactly what you said.

If you've never seen some of these daytime talk shows, it is absolute proof that people don't want to change just because they are miserable.  In fact, it seems that the more miserable they are, the less likely they are to change.  It's like their misery is what FORCES them to deny the truth and completely devote themselves to running from it.

Edited by Guest
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1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I didn't say they didn't. What's you question? Or is this your attempt at a thread-jack?

No thread-jack. There is a lot of talk that the wicked wont really have a desire to repent after death. For a very few minority this is correct but it is very few indeed. I have seen and experienced the state of the condemned to hell and I can testify it is the most horrible and painful feeling imaginable. The inescapable dread feeling is so terrifying its no wonder they are said to be in torment. That is a strong driving power for change. Thus, most will repent in the spirit prison (hell) and gain salvation.

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Have you ever seen an intervention?  They tend to confirm exactly what you said.

If you've never seen some of these daytime talk shows, it is absolute proof that people don't want to change just because they are miserable.  In fact, it seems that the more miserable they are, the less likely they are to change.  It's like their misery is what FORCES them to deny the truth and completely devote themselves to runing from it.

When they experience the real pain of hell almost all will repent.

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I think I would put my thoughts in this wise.  As long as it takes, regardless of how often others (or us) have failed; we should realize that there is a possibility to repent right here and now.  This may not be the last chance to repent, likely it is not – but no one can know for certain that such is not the case.  It is not a matter of what could of or should have been done yesterday – nor is it wise to think that we can wait to repent in some future tomorrow.  Right now, is the time to repent and work for righteousness. 

Almost always we think of repentance in terms of sins that need to be overcome.  But transcending sin is only the beginning of repentance and G-dly progression towards perfection.  I forget the exact “general authority” but there was once a talk about “Good, Better and Best” I find this allegory interesting in light of @Rob Osborn view of the resurrection.  Because good, better and best are three categories (not one) of righteousness or goodness – each having their own rewards and glory.

Rather that refer to the path of perfection – because it is two easy to argue over perfection – I will make reference to the path of mastery.  Also the ancient notion of being perfect and being a “master” does not carry quiet well enough to prevent misunderstanding and arguments in our modern dispensation’ interpretation of things.

There are many – especially within religious thinking as well as our social professions and trades that peruse a good path as their goal of accomplishment.  Theirs is an effort to be “good” enough to achieve the position or accomplish any particular task – or even a religious glory in the resurrection.  In school we call these - the average or the “C” students.  They do what is necessary to be on the path – that is it.   The do the check list and they are done.

The next path or effort of good for an achiever is the better individual.  They work to be better than most – they put in a little more effort to make sure what they do is right according to the prescribed or traditionally known way or method – I like to think of them as the “by-the-book” guys.  They are all about the prescribed way – on forums like this – they are the ones that argue over what they think the scriptures say and mean.  They believe that what is written in scripture is all the answer they or anyone ever need.  The “book” defines in advance the better way and they are all about making sure their efforts are by-the-book and better than the average guy’s.

The final path of goodness is the “Best”.  This is what I believe is the master craftsman.  Their effort goes beyond “by-the-book”.  In a religious sense they are led by the spirit and the scriptures written in their hearts.  My father was this kind of guy.  He was an accomplished artist.  He would study a particular brushstroke and practice it over and over perfecting the technique.  Then he would apply it to a particular painting – always making adjustments to achieve something that could not be found anywhere else in the word.  A best – not by any standard in some art class or prescribed method – but a creation that was not possible without his master effort.  A truly one of a kind.  But his painting was not ever done, he would then study his own work and the best of other masters trying to improve one little thing or another in a constant effort at “Best” – moving beyond what has been done before and inventing new possibilities. 

 

The Traveler

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27 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I think I would put my thoughts in this wise.  As long as it takes, regardless of how often others (or us) have failed; we should realize that there is a possibility to repent right here and now.  This may not be the last chance to repent, likely it is not – but no one can know for certain that such is not the case.  It is not a matter of what could of or should have been done yesterday – nor is it wise to think that we can wait to repent in some future tomorrow.  Right now, is the time to repent and work for righteousness. 

Almost always we think of repentance in terms of sins that need to be overcome.  But transcending sin is only the beginning of repentance and G-dly progression towards perfection.  I forget the exact “general authority” but there was once a talk about “Good, Better and Best” I find this allegory interesting in light of @Rob Osborn view of the resurrection.  Because good, better and best are three categories (not one) of righteousness or goodness – each having their own rewards and glory.

Rather that refer to the path of perfection – because it is two easy to argue over perfection – I will make reference to the path of mastery.  Also the ancient notion of being perfect and being a “master” does not carry quiet well enough to prevent misunderstanding and arguments in our modern dispensation’ interpretation of things.

There are many – especially within religious thinking as well as our social professions and trades that peruse a good path as their goal of accomplishment.  Theirs is an effort to be “good” enough to achieve the position or accomplish any particular task – or even a religious glory in the resurrection.  In school we call these - the average or the “C” students.  They do what is necessary to be on the path – that is it.   The do the check list and they are done.

The next path or effort of good for an achiever is the better individual.  They work to be better than most – they put in a little more effort to make sure what they do is right according to the prescribed or traditionally known way or method – I like to think of them as the “by-the-book” guys.  They are all about the prescribed way – on forums like this – they are the ones that argue over what they think the scriptures say and mean.  They believe that what is written in scripture is all the answer they or anyone ever need.  The “book” defines in advance the better way and they are all about making sure their efforts are by-the-book and better than the average guy’s.

The final path of goodness is the “Best”.  This is what I believe is the master craftsman.  Their effort goes beyond “by-the-book”.  In a religious sense they are led by the spirit and the scriptures written in their hearts.  My father was this kind of guy.  He was an accomplished artist.  He would study a particular brushstroke and practice it over and over perfecting the technique.  Then he would apply it to a particular painting – always making adjustments to achieve something that could not be found anywhere else in the word.  A best – not by any standard in some art class or prescribed method – but a creation that was not possible without his master effort.  A truly one of a kind.  But his painting was not ever done, he would then study his own work and the best of other masters trying to improve one little thing or another in a constant effort at “Best” – moving beyond what has been done before and inventing new possibilities. 

 

The Traveler

Aye, but let us not forget that its only when one reaches the end of the strait and narrow path that they are saved. The end of that path is overcoming all things, its perfection (spotless and pure).

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3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Have you ever seen an intervention?  They tend to confirm exactly what you said.

If you've never seen some of these daytime talk shows, it is absolute proof that people don't want to change just because they are miserable.  In fact, it seems that the more miserable they are, the less likely they are to change.  It's like their misery is what FORCES them to deny the truth and completely devote themselves to running from it.

This morning I read the 1st Chapter of 4th Nephi. It describes what can happen even to a celestial society over time, where in spite of miracles and saving ministrations occurring among the people, many hearts and minds were turned increasingly towards evil rather than good.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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47 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Aye, but let us not forget that its only when one reaches the end of the strait and narrow path that they are saved. The end of that path is overcoming all things, its perfection (spotless and pure).

Yes and no. Eternal progression occurs line upon line, from grace to grace, and from perfection to perfection.

This is true even post celestial resurrection. For, though Christ was perfected on the third day, his work is yet to be completed, and he still is yet to be crowned and receive all that is the Father's. And, the celestial resurrected Father continues to progress, having glory added to his name through the work of the Son.

Now, lest some assume that eternal progression assures transcendence from resurrected kingdom to resurrected kingdom,  there is the notion of eternal progression within one's own sphere and, by law, only after ones own kind, illustrated brilliantly by @Carborendum's analogy of the cat.

The notion doesn't end the debate, it simply leaves it open.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund
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25 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Yes and no. Eternal progression occurs line upon line, from grace to grace, and from perfection to perfection.

This is true even post celestial resurrection. For, though Christ was perfected on the third day, his work is yet to be completed, and he still is yet to be crowned and receive all that is the Father's. And, the celestial resurrected Father continues to progress, having glory added to his name through the work of the Son.

Now, lest some assume that eternal progression assures transcendence from resurrected kingdom to resurrected kingdom,  there is the notion of eternal progression within one's own sphere and, by law, only after ones own kind, illustrated brilliantly by @Carborendum's analogy of the cat.

The notion doesn't end the debate, it simply leaves it open.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I was referring to the end state of man at judgment. They must be spotless (that means without sin) to be saved from hell.

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Aye, but let us not forget that its only when one reaches the end of the strait and narrow path that they are saved. The end of that path is overcoming all things, its perfection (spotless and pure).

 

As we learn from studying the scripture - those that are more valent (exercise greater faith) receive a greater reward (noble and great that G-d makes his rulers) in the next estate in the plan of salvation.

 

The Traveler

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