Repentance after death

[Rob Osborn]

Just remember that all who accept Christ, whether in this life or the next, will reign with Christ on the earth for a thousand years. They all will be working towards perfection in all things in order to be saved.

[The Folk Prophet]

46 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I'm not sure what my position on this topic is but my off the top of my head thought is that to say that there are categories of people in the next life to whom repentance is not available seems to be placing limits on the atonement, and that's a thought I'm not comfortable with. It just seems to be to be a little odd to say that you and you and you can have access to repentance, but you over there can't. 

Can Satan repent, return to God and gain exaltation?

Of course the Atonement has "limits" by certain understanding(s).

The ENTIRE idea behind the Atonement was that some would not be saved. That's what the war in heaven was all about!

Why is it that some seem so determined to battle on for the philosophies of Satan? Well, because the concepts are pleasing to the carnal, lazy, selfish mind, of course.

Granted, there is a bit of a blur in the idea of "can't" repent and "won't" repent. But it's meaningless. Someone who "won't", can't.

[The Folk Prophet]

29 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The D&C scripture refers more to belief than faith (IMO) not repentance, intent, and behavior.  If you are one who can be "blinded by the craftiness of men" then you are the type of person who does not have the ability to see with the eye of faith.  You are guided more by your sense of right and wrong given by men, rather than the faith provided by your Heavenly Father.

If you accept the gospel AFTER this life, are you doing it because you would have accepted if given the chance?  Or are you accepting it because, "Oh, now that an angel is telling me this, I guess I was wrong."?  That's the difference between faith vs. belief.  If you're believing it because of your senses rather than because your spirit is truly accepting of the truth, the result will be different.

Added to this: EVERYONE will accept Christ and repent of their sins except the sons of perdition. If that qualifies them for the Celestial Kingdom then @Rob Osborn is right and everyone will end up in either outer darkness or the Celestial Kingdom. And we all (except Rob) know that Rob is not right.

[classylady]

James E. Faust in April 2003 Sunday morning session of General Conference gave a great talk called “Dear Are the Sheep That Have Wandered.”  According to him:

“But what if the children who have been taught by faithful, loving parents have rebelled or been led astray? Is there hope? The grief of a parent over a rebellious child is almost inconsolable. King David’s third son, Absalom, killed one of his brothers and also led a rebellion against his father. Absalom was killed by Joab. Upon hearing of Absalom’s death, King David wept and expressed his sadness: “O my son Absalom, my son, my son Absalom! would God I had died for thee, O Absalom, my son, my son!”6 ...

I believe and accept the comforting statement of Elder Orson F. Whitney:

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.”8

A principle in this statement that is often overlooked is that they must fully repent and “suffer for their sins and “pay their debt to justice.” I recognize that now is the time “to prepare to meet God.”9 If the repentance of the wayward children does not happen in this life, is it still possible for the cords of the sealing to be strong enough for them yet to work out their repentance? In the Doctrine and Covenants we are told, “The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

“And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.”10

We remember that the prodigal son wasted his inheritance, and when it was all gone he came back to his father’s house. There he was welcomed back into the family, but his inheritance was spent.11 Mercy will not rob justice, and the sealing power of faithful parents will only claim wayward children upon the condition of their repentance and Christ’s Atonement. Repentant wayward children will enjoy salvation and all the blessings that go with it, but exaltation is much more. It must be fully earned. The question as to who will be exalted must be left to the Lord in His mercy.

There are very few whose rebellion and evil deeds are so great that they have “sinned away the power to repent.” That judgment must also be left up to the Lord.  He tells us, “I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive”...

 

What I get from this is that yes, there is repentance after death, but the reward received will be according to works. We are all heirs of salvation, but exaltation is much more.  It must be fully earned. And, the Lord will forgive “whom I will forgive.”

Note: Bolded areas were added by me.

Edit:  I don’t know why this pasted so terribly.  I tried to edit, but it looks great when pulled up in edit mode.  Sorry about this.

Edited April 7, 2018 by classylady

[The Folk Prophet]

6 minutes ago, classylady said:

What I get from this is that yes, there is repentance after death, but the reward received will be according to works. We are all heirs of salvation, but exaltation is much more.  It must be fully earned. And, the Lord will forgive “whom I will forgive.”

Of course one could just go directly to the scripture that says just that: D&C 138 -

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

 

Edit: I realize this was quoted in the talk: just wanted to point out the specific reference, and the idea that the scripture, in this case, is sufficient on its own.

Edited April 7, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Added to this: EVERYONE will accept Christ and repent of their sins except the sons of perdition. If that qualifies them for the Celestial Kingdom then @Rob Osborn is right and everyone will end up in either outer darkness or the Celestial Kingdom. And we all (except Rob) know that Rob is not right.

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
            28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (D&C 29:27-28)

[classylady]

23 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Of course one could just go directly to the scripture that says just that: D&C 138 -

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

 

Edit: I realize this was quoted in the talk: just wanted to point out the specific reference, and the idea that the scripture, in this case, is sufficient on its own.

Very true.  The scripture says it all.  But, just like I keep my husband awake for such a lengthy time when I’m in the mood to talk (and why it’s always late at night, I don’t know), I like to flesh out my reasoning and all the particulars I can think of.  My husband groans when I get in that mood.  🤪

[Rob Osborn]

31 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Of course one could just go directly to the scripture that says just that: D&C 138 -

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

 

Edit: I realize this was quoted in the talk: just wanted to point out the specific reference, and the idea that the scripture, in this case, is sufficient on its own.

Hum...now what was that I was saying about everyone had to repent and be baptized in another thread?...

[The Folk Prophet]

9 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum...now what was that I was saying

 

15 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

There are opinions...not worth listening to.

Guess who's opinions I was speaking of?

[Rob Osborn]

Thats why I stick with quoting the scriptures

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, classylady said:

“But what if the children who have been taught by faithful, loving parents have rebelled or been led astray? Is there hope? The grief of a parent over a rebellious child is almost inconsolable. King David’s third son, Absalom, killed one of his brothers and also led a rebellion against his father. Absalom was killed by Joab. Upon hearing of Absalom’s death, King David wept and expressed his sadness:

I don't believe David to be the right parental example to make this point.

43 minutes ago, classylady said:

the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.”

I have to say that this is hard doctrine for me to accept.  I'm not saying a prophet is wrong.  I'm just saying it is hard for me to accept.  I need something more than reading the quote to feel the truth of it.

I can go wayward and even outright reject the gospel in this life.  But because my parents were faithful, I can still return to the fold of God?  If this is talking of the Telestial or Terrestrial, I could totally understand.  But the Celestial?  That seems to be going away from what we have pretty clearly in scripture.

For my part, I wish this would give me any solace if I were to go off the path or even if I may not be completely on the path currently.  But my parents...  No hope there.  Yet, if it were true, I think it would be a wonderful idea and wonderful doctrine.  But it doesn't ring true to me, and it doesn't seem to resonate with the clearly outlined scriptures on the matter.

Surprisingly, this is a perfect example of what I was saying about faith vs. belief.  As I research this more, I may find that,"yes, it is true doctrine.  And it says exactly what it seems to say."  Then, I'd believe it and work on getting a testimony of it.  But if the Spirit doesn't confirm it to me, or if my spirit is unwilling to accept that confirmation, then I will have no faith.

[The Folk Prophet]

5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Thats why I stick with quoting the scriptures

We all know perfectly well why you stick with quoting scriptures -- so you can ignore any of the teachings of our living prophets and apostles that you don't like.

[lostinwater]

1 hour ago, classylady said:

Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.”8

Thank-you for posting this.  i agree entirely.  And we all come from *very* good spiritual Parents .  i don't think God and Jesus give up on people - whether they are in mortality or not.  

i really think everyone who wants to be saved and in heaven with God and Jesus, will be.  But you'll have to let go of the things that aren't allowed - and you have to want it - nobody is going to force you.  This will be easier for some than others.  And for those that won't or can't let it go, they may need to have it burned out of them to make them pure enough.  

And this isn't me recommending a eat/drink/be merry kind of view of life.  Not at all.

[pam]

Please let's keep it nice.  I don't want have to close my own thread.

[An Investigator]

As someone who is married to a non member I would like to think I will be with my family, I think it would be quite odd if I didn't have hope that this will happen and there is slim to none chance that my Husband will join the Church.   That said, Heavenly Father's plan is one of happiness so I try not to let it bother me too much as I think we will all be where we are happy, where ever that is.   I consider that my Husband,  being married to me will have had ample opportunity to join the Church if he wanted to.  As I used to be a Catholic before, the thought of him going to another Kingdom of Glory is much more appealing then him languishing in hell for all Eternity. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by An Investigator

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, An Investigator said:

As someone who is married to a non member I would like to think I will be with my family, I think it would be quite odd if I didn't have hope that this will happen and there is slim to none chance that my Husband will join the Church.   That said, Heavenly Father's plan is one of happiness so I try not to let it bother me too much as I think we will all be where we are happy, where ever that is.   I consider that my Husband,  being married to me will have had ample opportunity to join the Church if he wanted to.  As I used to be a Catholic before, the thought of him going to another Kingdom of Glory is much more appealing then him languishing in hell for all Eternity. 

You will be with him in eternity. Things will work out. If we are saved, we are saved with our families, we will be together. I can assure you of that. Be patient.

[classylady]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I don't believe David to be the right parental example to make this point.

I have to say that this is hard doctrine for me to accept.  I'm not saying a prophet is wrong.  I'm just saying it is hard for me to accept.  I need something more than reading the quote to feel the truth of it.

I can go wayward and even outright reject the gospel in this life.  But because my parents were faithful, I can still return to the fold of God?  If this is talking of the Telestial or Terrestrial, I could totally understand.  But the Celestial?  That seems to be going away from what we have pretty clearly in scripture.

For my part, I wish this would give me any solace if I were to go off the path or even if I may not be completely on the path currently.  But my parents...  No hope there.  Yet, if it were true, I think it would be a wonderful idea and wonderful doctrine.  But it doesn't ring true to me, and it doesn't seem to resonate with the clearly outlined scriptures on the matter.

Surprisingly, this is a perfect example of what I was saying about faith vs. belief.  As I research this more, I may find that,"yes, it is true doctrine.  And it says exactly what it seems to say."  Then, I'd believe it and work on getting a testimony of it.  But if the Spirit doesn't confirm it to me, or if my spirit is unwilling to accept that confirmation, then I will have no faith.

Elder Faust does point out that they will have to pay the price for their sins, and their reward will be based on their works, and that salvation does not mean exaltation. It is up to the Lord to forgive whom He will forgive.  We have no idea what is in the heart of the sinner.  Christ knows all. With that said, there is still Something in the sealing of children to parents that I don’t think we are fully aware of. Blessings that we don’t fully understand. 

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, classylady said:

Elder Faust does point out that they will have to pay the price for their sins, and their reward will be based on their works, 

The problem I'm having with this is that it sounds too much like the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory.  I've read too many places that this is not a correct doctrine.

Quote

and that salvation does not mean exaltation.

I understand this.  But the quote you provided simply can't be about the lower kingdoms because such a promise would be meaningless for the lower kingdoms.  I doubt any Mormon parent believes that just because their children went wayward that they're going to be sons of perdition.  So, if it only means they're going to be saved in the Telestial or Terrestrial, what kind of consolation is that?

Quote

It is up to the Lord to forgive whom He will forgive.  

I am 100% ready to admit this.  But if it is as that promise says, does that not take individual agency and "this life is the time to prepare to meet God" out of the equation?  Are those not hallmarks of our doctrine of worthiness, works, and agency?

Quote

We have no idea what is in the heart of the sinner.  Christ knows all.

Absolutely true.  And nothing I've ever said is about our being able to tell which individual qualifies for which Kingdom.  Everything I've ever believed on the subjects were only about the descriptions, not individuals (except perhaps for the purposes of discussion only).

Quote

With that said, there is still Something in the sealing of children to parents that I don’t think we are fully aware of. Blessings that we don’t fully understand. 

Yes, I agree with this too.  In fact, I've been on a multi-year search for a little more information because I feel like I'm hitting a concrete wall. And believe me when I say that I've asked a LOT of people about this.  But most either agree that they don't know either, or they give an answer which shows that they clearly do not understand the question.

Only one man has mentioned the "tentacle" quote.  But he wasn't able to explain it or show how it fit with what we normally understand.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Guest

[askandanswer]

6 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Can Satan repent, return to God and gain exaltation?

Of course the Atonement has "limits" by certain understanding(s).

The ENTIRE idea behind the Atonement was that some would not be saved. That's what the war in heaven was all about!

 

 2 Nephi 9:7 Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement—save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption.  Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration.  And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more.

If Satan pays the price of his sins, then I suspect that justice cannot be denied.
 

[The Folk Prophet]

16 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

If Satan pays the price of his sins, then I suspect that justice cannot be denied.

Your understanding of the gospel is astounding.

[The Folk Prophet]

38 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The problem I'm having with this is that it sounds too much like the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory.  I've read too many places that this is not a correct doctrine.

I understand this.  But the quote you provided simply can't be about the lower kingdoms because such a promise would be meaningless for the lower kingdoms.  I doubt any Mormon parent believes that just because their children went wayward that they're going to be sons of perdition.  So, if it only means they're going to be saved in the Telestial or Terrestrial, what kind of consolation is that?

I am 100% ready to admit this.  But if it is as that promise says, does that not take individual agency and "this life is the time to prepare to meet God" out of the equation?  Are those not hallmarks of our doctrine of worthiness, works, and agency?

Absolutely true.  And nothing I've ever said is about our being able to tell which individual qualifies for which Kingdom.  Everything I've ever believed on the subjects were only about the descriptions, not individuals (except perhaps for the purposes of discussion only).

Yes, I agree with this too.  In fact, I've been on a multi-year search for a little more information because I feel like I'm hitting a concrete wall. And believe me when I say that I've asked a LOT of people about this.  But most either agree that they don't know either, or they give an answer which shows that they clearly do not understand the question.

Only one man has mentioned the "tentacle" quote.  But he wasn't able to explain it or show how it fit with what we normally understand.

https://www.lds.org/liahona/2014/03/faithful-parents-and-wayward-children-sustaining-hope-while-overcoming-misunderstanding?lang=eng

[askandanswer]

6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Your understanding of the gospel is astounding.

lol, I know right? Even I am amazed at my own brilliance.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

https://www.lds.org/liahona/2014/03/faithful-parents-and-wayward-children-sustaining-hope-while-overcoming-misunderstanding?lang=eng

That seems to be the source material for ClassyLady's post.  All it did was say the same thing she said but added 

Quote

However, righteous parental influence

1. does not replace in the life of an individual the need for the redeeming and strengthening power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ,
2. does not overrule the consequences of the unrighteous exercise of moral agency, and
3. does not negate the responsibility of an individual as an agent “to act … and not to be acted upon” 

That's great to hear.  But I never saw anything that explains how believing in such tentacles after this life actually does not... any of these things.

I feel like I've been told: Lift this 50 lbs weight.  But don't worry.  It's not really 50 lbs. OK.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Guest

[SpiritDragon]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

The problem I'm having with this is that it sounds too much like the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory.  I've read too many places that this is not a correct doctrine.

I understand this.  But the quote you provided simply can't be about the lower kingdoms because such a promise would be meaningless for the lower kingdoms.  I doubt any Mormon parent believes that just because their children went wayward that they're going to be sons of perdition.  So, if it only means they're going to be saved in the Telestial or Terrestrial, what kind of consolation is that?

I am 100% ready to admit this.  But if it is as that promise says, does that not take individual agency and "this life is the time to prepare to meet God" out of the equation?  Are those not hallmarks of our doctrine of worthiness, works, and agency?

Absolutely true.  And nothing I've ever said is about our being able to tell which individual qualifies for which Kingdom.  Everything I've ever believed on the subjects were only about the descriptions, not individuals (except perhaps for the purposes of discussion only).

Yes, I agree with this too.  In fact, I've been on a multi-year search for a little more information because I feel like I'm hitting a concrete wall. And believe me when I say that I've asked a LOT of people about this.  But most either agree that they don't know either, or they give an answer which shows that they clearly do not understand the question.

Only one man has mentioned the "tentacle" quote.  But he wasn't able to explain it or show how it fit with what we normally understand.

Clearly, it's an area where the particulars haven't been elucidated such that we have a plain teaching on the matter. We do believe and teach that now is the time to prepare to meet God and that after this life it MAY be everlastingly too late. On the hand we also do work in the temples for those who either didn't have access to the gospel in mortality or rejected it in mortality. This whole exercise of temple work would seem futile if those on the other side were not able to be partakers thereof. Clearly the ministry takes place in the spirit world and there is also some form of repentance and forgiveness available. I've always tended to go with the explanation that those who had the gospel in this life, but didn't take advantage of it are left with what they did with it. While those who never had the opportunity at all will be given every opportunity to repent and enjoy the fullest blessings available to them as if they had had the gospel in mortality.

Another passage of scripture that often seems like it takes the 'agency/ this life is the time' out of the equation is D&C132:

Quote

26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.

I've also discussed this passage for years and never quite felt like I've found a fully satisfactory explanation. One thing is clear to me though, the sealing power is serious business. I can only speculate that the sealing power leaves a door open to those who have proven faithful to obtain that which is promised them. Perhaps, in the case of a wayward child or spouse with a faithful parent or partner, where individual agency has been at odds there is a reckoning between family members (it would seem to need to happen before resurrection and judgment) wherein the two parties discuss the options available in the eternities and the unfaithful either chooses to fully repent and abide Celestial law (involving the requisite suffering of said repentance) or to continue in the path they have heretofore chosen leaving the faithful to either invoke further influence through the sealing power or choose to let them go. Perhaps, it is simply a matter of the faithful having visiting rights to see family in a state of lesser glory?

One thing I find particularly interesting about the passage above is that it does specify that they will come forth in the first resurrection to their exaltation. So it would seem fairly plainly to not be referring to anyone being "saved" by the sealing power to a lesser glory - which I agree with you entirely seems to be no consolation anyway. 

 

[The Folk Prophet]

I think there must be something to the idea of the sealing power beyond what we understand...particularly in that what we understand of it is practically nothing. But as Elder Bednar teaches, it cannot override agency.

Another point worth consideration: It may well matter when said children go wayward. After having made their own covenants = more culpable and in significantly greater danger than having not made covenants.

In point of fact, it seems reasonable that most of those who actually become sons of perdition will be those who had sealed parents were raised in the gospel and taught the truth, and who had their own covenants made and then betrayed them.

My best understanding of the "tentacles" quote is that it is simply not correct. It makes no sense at all.