Starbucks to close 8K stores May 29th for training


pam
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The manager was following Starbucks procedures to ask non-patrons to leave for "EXCESSIVE Loitering."

Everyone knows that Starbucks is a hangout and people meet each other there.  But that's usually for a relatively brief time.  I'd like to know just how long these men were loitering.  Was it three hours?  I'd say that's excessive loitering.

Additionally, it wasn't the loitering alone that merited the arrest.  It was the fact that even when the police were brought in and asked them to leave, they refused.  So, with the refusal, the police arrested them.

My non-lawyer analysis:  Loitering is why the police were called.  But they were arrested for what amounted to criminal trespass (I believe the official arrest report termed it "defiant trespass")  because of their refusal to leave and refusal to obey the lawful orders of a police officer.  The district attorney declined to prosecute.  As small a crime as they were committing, I too would have adjudged "time served" and be off with them.

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Corporate penny counters looked at the numbers, and decided that it would be better financially to broadcast this closure and make a very prominent statement.  They are looking at their bottom line, nothing more.   Never assume a company is just "being nice" because they aren't.  They run the numbers through a series of scenarios and this one happened to rise to the top.

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Guest MormonGator
16 minutes ago, bytebear said:

Corporate penny counters looked at the numbers, and decided that it would be better financially to broadcast this closure and make a very prominent statement.  They are looking at their bottom line, nothing more.   Never assume a company is just "being nice" because they aren't.  They run the numbers through a series of scenarios and this one happened to rise to the top.

Yup. Everything a company does, everything-is based on what will help sales and give them good PR in the long run. 

The average Starbucks customer doesn't have a Make America Great Again hat. They (Starbucks) know that this move will make their customer base love them even more. 

And none of this effects me. I'm a Dunkin Donuts guy. 

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Guest LiterateParakeet
6 hours ago, pam said:

I've gone into establishments and sat at one their tables while waiting for friends to join me several times.  I don't feel it was any different for these two gentlemen who were waiting for another person before they ordered.  It was all in the perspective of that one Starbucks employee who I feel made a wrong decision.

I agree. They explained to the manager they were waiting for a friend. Many other people in Starbucks at the time said they weren't causing any trouble.  

In a different incident a black man was denied access to LA Fitness, even though he was a member. LA Fitness called the police, who were equally confused as to why the black man was not allowed to enter. 

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/04/watch-black-man-blocked-entering-nj-gym-hes-paid-member-even-cops-confused/

6 hours ago, lostinwater said:

i'd be interested to hear from People of Color - their experiences.  i've read some books and i never realized just how much suppressed rage there is in the Black Community against a system they see as oppressing them.  

Many of their points seem valid to me - and others, i just don't understand (but would like to try to).

I think listening to their stories is important. In my experience you will find they have many different opinions just as LDS here on MormonHub do.  

I started by talking to black people I know in real life about these issues. Then I reached out to black people on line.  I've learned a lot from listening to their experiences. 

So go make some new friends, ask them about these issues and then listen. The biggest mistake I think white people make in the groups I'm in, is that they want to talk rather than listen.  

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48 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Yup. Everything a company does, everything-is based on what will help sales and give them good PR in the long run. 

The average Starbucks customer doesn't have a Make America Great Again hat. They (Starbucks) know that this move will make their customer base love them even more. 

And none of this effects me. I'm a Dunkin Donuts guy. 

Dunkin Donuts... The company that tried to trademark / copyright the phrase "Best Coffee in the World" or something like that.  Yup, as a Mormon, you need to stay away from that too.:P

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Guest MormonGator
5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Dunkin Donuts... The company that tried to trademark / copyright the phrase "Best Coffee in the World" or something like that.  Yup, as a Mormon, you need to stay away from that too.:P

No coffee? Sorry pal, but I don't like to drink straight whiskey that early in the morning. 

Whoops ! Sorry. Ignore this. 

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3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

No coffee? Sorry pal, but I don't like to drink straight whiskey that early in the morning. 

Whoops ! Sorry. Ignore this. 

Alcohol and caffeine.  The elixir of the devil, I tell ya.

All I need are some tasty waves and a cool buzz and I'm fine.  ( @zil sparked some old memories).

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I have an issue when something like this is chalked up to race.  When I was in my mid 20s, I was driving home in a massive rain storm.  It was pitch black, and I suddenly saw an overturned car in front of me.  I looked around and saw a gas station to my left, so I pulled in ,and then BAM, my back window shattered.  Then a cop started yelling at me, and after pulling into the station, and talking to him, he told me to stay put.  He went and talked to another cop, who came back with a traffic ticket. 

When I went to court, I was sitting with all the other traffic ticket people, and then I was called to another court.  The DA decided to upgrade my traffic ticket to a felony.  Took $3000, a lawyer and a plea to reduce it to a traffic ticket (again). 

Basically the cop was covering up his breaking my window (the broken window wasn't even in the original complaint, and the DA was unaware of it).  I was pretty much railroaded to protect his career. 

If I were black, I would probably think it was racially motivated.  So, when I hear people say these types of things are based on race, I remember my experience, and think, no, it's just people doing wrong things, and race probably doesn't factor in at all.

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6 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I think listening to their stories is important. In my experience you will find they have many different opinions just as LDS here on MormonHub do.  

I started by talking to black people I know in real life about these issues. Then I reached out to black people on line.  I've learned a lot from listening to their experiences. 

So go make some new friends, ask them about these issues and then listen. The biggest mistake I think white people make in the groups I'm in, is that they want to talk rather than listen.  

Excellent advice - completely agree.

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I think this story, which happened in Detroit on the same day as the Starbucks incident, shines a brighter light on why racial sensitivity training might be necessary for society at large.

Basically, white people need to stop assuming anyone with a darker skin tone is dangerous.  It's why, when my white coworker wanted her black boyfriend to stop and offer a teenage girl a ride home from the grocery store on a cold night, she told him to pull up so she could offer the ride to the girl.

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20 hours ago, jewels8 said:

I am not familiar with what happened, but I don't know why Starbucks is being given so much attention on an LDS site, since it is mainly about coffee, and LDS do not drink coffee.  Even though they may offer hot cocoa, I don't feel it would be appropriate for a Latter-day Saint to enter a Star bucks.  If they were striving to be vailant and temple worthy and avoid the appearance of evil.  Giving business to a place like that just helps coffee sales.   We want to eliminate those kinds of things, not support them.   I think of course, every one should be treated right, there should be no racial bias, if this is the case, but we should be focusing more on those things that will build up the kingdom of God.  For instance, and I don't mean for this to be taken the wrong way, but it would be I think better to support those causes that are supporting what God is doing.  And give more attention to them.  The spirit can not become stronger in our lives, in our children's lives, in this world and we cannot be prepared for the Savior's coming unless we are willing to be better at forsaking the things of this world and replacing them with the things of heaven.  It reminds me of a comment a friend made once.  He had served a  mission, and of course, as a  missionary, you are so much closer to the Spirit (but shouldn't we all be?)  And he said one time he and his companion had to make a phone call.  They found themselves in a circumstance where they hadn't I guess another option.  I can't remember what the problem was.  The only place nearby was a bar.  They ofcourse didn't want to go in, but went in to just make the phone call.  He said that he has never felt the Spirit leave so dramatically before.  They made the call and promptly left.  They felt the Spirit afterwards.  I think sometimes we don't realize what we have and how much we need it.  And how much the world needs it.  We need to shine our light.

I actually AGREE with Jewels on this.

Starbucks is...first and foremost...a coffee selling café.  It is NOT like a Gas Station or a Store.  It's like going to a Bar and saying that this is appropriate because the Bar also sells Great Soft Drinks and Mug Root beer as well as having great table snacks during happy hour of pretzels and chips.  Still doesn't change that the Bar is first and foremost an establishment to sell alcohol.  The Same goes with Starbucks and it's association with Coffee (it IS the Starbucks coffee company).

This is a DISTINCT DIFFERENCE between going to a Gas Station, a Grocery Store, or other locations which have primary features that are NOT related to or associated primarily with selling a specific product.  Starbucks is known and primarily associated with it's coffee.  The other items are accessories for that, but just like Dunkin Donuts (another place that sells coffee, but it isn't the primary association) is associated with Donuts and everything else is an accessory to that, Starbucks is associated with coffee.

I don't go to Starbucks.  I don't go to coffee cafe's. 

That said, I KNOW many Mormons that DO drink coffee, that DO drink alcohol, and that DO smoke cigarettes (and other things).  This can get awkward when you can smell the smoke on someone, having seen them drinking coffee in the past week, and when you ask if they follow the word of wisdom in an interview and they say..."yes" to gently expand the conversation so that they can clarify what you saw with your own eyes and what you can smell with your own nose.   (Those who do not drink coffee may actually be surprised at the percentage of Mormons that DO actually drink coffee, there's a reason coffee shops open up even in Prove Utah of all places).

There is nothing against going to Starbucks, or a Bar, or a tobacco store, but it is something that I would personally avoid (as to even avoid the appearance of evil).

So, count me as another who was a little surprised to see a topic dedicated to A Coffee joint, but then, it IS a current event.

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13 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Dunkin Donuts... The company that tried to trademark / copyright the phrase "Best Coffee in the World" or something like that.  Yup, as a Mormon, you need to stay away from that too.:P

Maybe, but their name is Dunkin Donuts, not Starbucks Coffee.  Starbucks is the store front for Starbucks Coffee Company.  They are inherently associated with coffee and that is the main association of their company.  Dunkin Donuts is primarily a Donut's company. 

Do you also excuse people going to Strip Clubs because the club sells great food? (yes, I've heard this excuse).  There are some associations which are defined and specific where a company is associated and mainly connected to a specific line (Starbucks-coffee, Bars-Alcohol, Tobacco shops-Tobacco, Strip Clubs - Evil lustful thoughts, fornication, etc) even if they sell other side items in their main sales categories. 

This is VERY different than a Grocery store which sells groceries for the main part, or a Gas Station which is mainly associated with Gas (imagine that) and petrol, or a Donut Shop that has most of it's shelf space composed of donuts but also has coffee (as donuts are a breakfast item normally and many people drink coffee with their breakfast).

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3 hours ago, seashmore said:

I think this story, which happened in Detroit on the same day as the Starbucks incident, shines a brighter light on why racial sensitivity training might be necessary for society at large.

Basically, white people need to stop assuming anyone with a darker skin tone is dangerous.  It's why, when my white coworker wanted her black boyfriend to stop and offer a teenage girl a ride home from the grocery store on a cold night, she told him to pull up so she could offer the ride to the girl.

I was horrified over that story when I first heard it.  The poor kid.  I am just so grateful that I grew up in an area where there was such a diversity of culture.  I was a minority at my high school.   I grew up with such an appreciation of people from all walks of life and backgrounds.

Here's my high school choir picture.  I'm the blonde front and center surrounded by a bunch of dark haired people.  :)     

high school choir.jpg

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52 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Maybe, but their name is Dunkin Donuts, not Starbucks Coffee.  Starbucks is the store front for Starbucks Coffee Company.  They are inherently associated with coffee and that is the main association of their company.  Dunkin Donuts is primarily a Donut's company. 

Do you also excuse people going to Strip Clubs because the club sells great food? (yes, I've heard this excuse).  There are some associations which are defined and specific where a company is associated and mainly connected to a specific line (Starbucks-coffee, Bars-Alcohol, Tobacco shops-Tobacco, Strip Clubs - Evil lustful thoughts, fornication, etc) even if they sell other side items in their main sales categories. 

This is VERY different than a Grocery store which sells groceries for the main part, or a Gas Station which is mainly associated with Gas (imagine that) and petrol, or a Donut Shop that has most of it's shelf space composed of donuts but also has coffee (as donuts are a breakfast item normally and many people drink coffee with their breakfast).

1) There is nothing inherently evil about coffee. There is something inherently evil about strip clubs.

2) going to a strip club automatically engages you into a participatory evil. Going to a coffee shop does not.

3) if you've never been to a Starbucks, then you don't know just how much non coffee stuff there is there.

4) most regular restaurants showcase their bar right near the front entrance.  And over 50percent of their profits come from alcohol. Do you limit yourself to restaurants that don't serve alcohol?

5) you make the association.  I do not.

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5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

1) There is nothing inherently evil about coffee. There is something inherently evil about strip clubs.

2) going to a strip club automatically engages you into a participtory evil. Going to a coffee shop does not.

3) if you've never been to a Starbucks, then you don't know just how much non coffee stuff there is there.

4) most regular restaurants showcase their bar right near the front entrance.  And over 50percent of their profits come from alcohol. Do you limit yourself to restaurants that don't serve alcohol?

Once again, there is a DIFFERENCE between going to a BAR and going to a restaurant that has alcohol.  One is primarily associated with alcohol and that is their intent, to sell alcohol.  A restaurant is normally there to sell food, not alcohol.

Not all strip clubs have the food section with the strip club itself from what I understand.  They have a restaurant section and another section at times, but I still don't buy the excuse given to me by some that they go just because the food is so great. 

There is NOTHING inherently evil about coffee, but for Mormons who are supposed to be living the Word of Wisdom, there IS an inherent aspect of sinning...aka...evil in that sense.  It is the Starbucks Coffee Company...not Starbucks Donuts, not Starbucks groceries, not even Starbucks - we sell muffins...company.  It is Starbucks Coffee. 

As Mormons, even as a minimum, we do not drink coffee, tea, or alcohol.  You may go to Starbucks and NOT drink coffee, you may also only buy muffins, but you ARE still going to a coffee company that's main association is coffee.

Just like the disturbed fellows who tried to excuse their going to the strip clubs...they may have gone to the gentleman's club, they may have only gone to eat food and not to the actual other portions of it, but they DID go to a strip club which has it's main association as something NOT approved by the LDS church.

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28 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

This is VERY different than a Grocery store which sells groceries for the main part, or a Gas Station which is mainly associated with Gas (imagine that) and petrol, or a Donut Shop that has most of it's shelf space composed of donuts but also has coffee (as donuts are a breakfast item normally and many people drink coffee with their breakfast).

There is somewhat of a fallacy when it comes to gas stations.  I managed a gas station/convenience store for 7 years.  These type of establishments make VERY little money on the sale of gasoline.   Between the cost of the gas and the numerous taxes imposed by state and federal there is very little profit in gas sales.  It's the inside the store sales where they make their money.  Where did most of our sales come from?  Beer, coffee, energy drinks and cigarettes.   The selling of gas is almost more of a courtesy to get people to come into the store.

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8 minutes ago, pam said:

There is somewhat of a fallacy when it comes to gas stations.  I managed a gas station/convenience store for 7 years.  These type of establishments make VERY little money on the sale of gasoline.   Between the cost of the gas and the numerous taxes imposed by state and federal there is very little profit in gas sales.  It's the inside the store sales where they make their money.  Where did most of our sales come from?  Beer, coffee, energy drinks and cigarettes.   

I realize this, but a Gas station is still primarily associated with and part of the Gas chain.  In the middle East I associate with Oil Execs in the LDS church (you'd be surprised that the Oil Companies are one of the sources of LDS individuals in the Middle East).  They do not work with Chevron Beer and Alcohol, but with Chevron or with Exxon who produce Oil, gas, and other hydrocarbons. 

In franchises the Gas is normally used as a break even, and they make money off of sales inside.  HOWEVER...the REASON they sell gas is because that is their primary REASON for being.  Without the gas, many who try to go that route, simply go bankrupt.  It is because a majority of the sales, even if it does not turn a profit, is from the Gasoline sales.  Most of those who go buy gas (today it's with CC at the pump in many instances).  It brings in high enough numbers, that after people buy gas, they then turn to see if they need anything else.  That brings them into the store with left over money or with extra money and they buy things (including beer, cigarettes, and other things).  However, a majority of the sales (even if it is break even) is normally still gas.  The Primary Profits of these franchises DO come from the extra (and they are thus "EXTRAS") items that are found and sold in the store (which includes a LOT of cigarettes and beer, but there are also the lottery tickets) which is where they go into the black for profits from sales.

I find it utterly and completely crazy that Mormons are trying to justify their support of Starbucks Coffee Company with these types of excuses...TBH.

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24 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Once again, there is a DIFFERENCE between going to a BAR and going to a restaurant that has alcohol.  One is primarily associated with alcohol and that is their intent, to sell alcohol.  A restaurant is normally there to sell food, not alcohol.

Not all strip clubs have the food section with the strip club itself from what I understand.  They have a restaurant section and another section at times, but I still don't buy the excuse given to me by some that they go just because the food is so great. 

There is NOTHING inherently evil about coffee, but for Mormons who are supposed to be living the Word of Wisdom, there IS an inherent aspect of sinning...aka...evil in that sense.  It is the Starbucks Coffee Company...not Starbucks Donuts, not Starbucks groceries, not even Starbucks - we sell muffins...company.  It is Starbucks Coffee. 

As Mormons, even as a minimum, we do not drink coffee, tea, or alcohol.  You may go to Starbucks and NOT drink coffee, you may also only buy muffins, but you ARE still going to a coffee company that's main association is coffee.

Just like the disturbed fellows who tried to excuse their going to the strip clubs...they may have gone to the gentleman's club, they may have only gone to eat food and not to the actual other portions of it, but they DID go to a strip club which has it's main association as something NOT approved by the LDS church.

You're the one making the association.  I am not.

Strip clubs, I already admitted were a PARTICIPATORY EVIL.  That's not part of the discussion.

Your sole argument is about association, not participation.  Why do YOU make the association?  I don't.  How many restaurants are named "cafes"?  What do you think a "cafe" is? It's a COFFEE shop.  But do you think of it as a coffee shop and therefore avoid it?  No.  You go because it is a restaurant.

I go to Starbucks because it is a snack shop.  I don't associate it with coffee any more than I'd associate a cafe with coffee.

Again, YOU"RE making the association.  I do not.

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18 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I find it utterly and completely crazy that Mormons are trying to justify their support of Starbucks Coffee Company with these types of excuses...TBH.

It seems that no matter where you go these days there are going to be things sold and done that are against what LDS standards are.  That comes to grocery stores, convenience stores, restaurants and just about anywhere else you go these days.  Does that mean I won't be a customer?  It doesn't.  But I know where the line is drawn on what I purchase or participate in.  Would I go to a strip club?  Oh heck no.   Whether a place like Starbucks might be associated with coffee I'm smart enough to know that there are other things there that they sell to accommodate those customers that aren't coffee drinkers.   If there wasn't a drink there that I really liked I probably would never go there.  

But I don't feel like purchasing my Strawberries N' Cream from Starbucks makes me a bad person or that I'm giving the appearance of being a bad person just because I walked into a Starbucks store.   So saying I'm trying to justify or that others are is almost laughable to me.  

If one wants to avoid at all cost an establishment that sells or is associated with coffee, alcohol or anything else, that is their right.  But you are hard pressed these days to find places that don't also cater to those customers that do indulge in those items.

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14 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Your sole argument is about association, not participation.  Why do YOU make the association?  I don't.  How many restaurants are named "cafes"?  What do you think a "cafe" is? It's a COFFEE shop.  But do you think of it as a coffee shop and therefore avoid it?  No.  You go because it is a restaurant.

 

It reminded me of the small town my parents lived in for awhile.  You would get invited down to the local "coffee shop" to meet for breakfast or dinner.  That "coffee shop" was a Jim's Restaurant.  There are a few in Utah.  It's a restaurant but even among the LDS community in that area it was just referred to as "the coffee shop."   

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56 minutes ago, pam said:

I was horrified over that story when I first heard it.  The poor kid.  I am just so grateful that I grew up in an area where there was such a diversity of culture.  I was a minority at my high school.   I grew up with such an appreciation of people from all walks of life and backgrounds.

Here's my high school choir picture.  I'm the blonde front and center surrounded by a bunch of dark haired people.  :)     

high school choir.jpg

There's no diversity in this photo - they're ALL black and white....although, admittedly, that could be something to do with the photo rather than the people in it.

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I was working for a construction company once and we got a contract to design and build an Indian casino.  I was somewhat disturbed at the prospect that I'd be enabling the construction and activity of a casino.  I asked another, more experienced LDS engineer about it.

He said,"We provide engineering services to ensure the safety and well-being of the public who uses the facility.  We don't know and don't care about what they do with it.  We can design a strip mall and we don't know who the tenants are.  10 years later it could be the center of a red light district.  What control do we have over that?  The reverse can happen with the casino.  It could go belly up in 10 years and the building occupied by professional offices.  We need to ensure those people are safe. 

"We could be asked to build a church for some mega pastor who only cares about getting rich and fleeces people out of their money that way.  How are we responsible for that?"

"We do what we do.  Let others worry about what they do."

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Here in rich, fat America, we have lots and lots of choices for food.  The majority of the population of Earth isn't so picky - they're like "hooray, food!"  But we have food bursting at every seam, everywhere.

So what's a company to do?  Try to make you feel better about buying ingestibles from them, than the next option over.  How do they do it?  They can lie and fearmonger (the organic movement), or they can align themselves with virtue.  

Shop Starbucks!  Full of values and corporate responsibility!  The earth and humans are all better off because we're here, and when you buy from us, some of that rubs off on you!  Our coffee is, like, good for your karma or salvation, or whatever.  

Again, I don't really have a problem with Starbucks (or any other company) doing this.  Mormon values: Love thy neighbor, be good stewards of the earth.  So if a company legitimately does those things, then hooray.   Again, just don't be thinking they do it for any reason other than it might give them a competitive edge against the next choice over.  

It's one of the luciferian "disguise as an angel of light" things.  Mortal business.

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Can we think of a scenario in which we could live and and no point in our lives financially support some sort of evil?

One would never be able to make any sort of trade, take advantage of any public service. Never wear clothes unless it was home grown and made on ground that was acquired in some sort of fashion that does not involve buying or trading with anyone... an unknown island perhaps?

Same goes for food. We would have to raise animals that never once had parents that were owned by anyone (otherwise we would need to purchase them and the money at some point may be used to do something immoral), raise them on our unknown island, slaughter them with tools we made from this unknown island and eat them there.

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