Halleluhah and there was much rejoicing

[mgridle]

LDS Church and BSA are done!  Finally, let that organization rot in its putrid corpse (never thought I would say that-former Eagle Scout).

[mirkwood]

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/new-program-children-youth

[mirkwood]

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900018074/mormons-to-drop-scouting-as-part-of-new-global-initiative.html?user=app

[mgridle]

Just now, mirkwood said:

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/new-program-children-youth

Yeap, now BSA can go and die.  The executives "claimed" they did this to "increase" membership.  When the facts point out to the exact opposite, Scouts Canada went this route years ago and have been consistently and continually dropping in membership.  When you fail to stand for something, you stand for anything and no one really wants to be part of an organization that stands for anything.

20% membership of BSA gone, gone are the financial access to Church funds (which was significant).  After the Church leaves, the Baptists will leave and so with the Catholics.

I personally believe it was a conspiracy . . .ever since BSA got Bob Gates as CEO-he was/is a one-worlder, globalists, marxists, former CIA director-horrible BSA let him in.

[Jane_Doe]

I admit, I got an email about this and my first thought was-- "what- what are they doing with my Achievement Day girls?" and then I read the scouting part and went "Yeah, finally done!"

Looking to things more thoroughly.... I am happy to be done with scouts, but there's little info on any of the new programs yet.  Oh well, we got 20 months before then.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[mirkwood]

We should have left decades ago.

[mgridle]

11 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

We should have left decades ago.

2013 when they let in the homosexuals.  It went from this:

to this:

They lost their way and no one stood up for truth and right as they lost their way, so now they will die.

 

[mgridle]

Now this is interesting:

http://theforumnewsgroup.com/2015/07/29/gay-is-ok-in-the-bsa-sort-of/

New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman announced a settlement between his office and The Boy Scouts of America after its National Executive Board voted to overturn its ban on gay leaders and employees.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/four-women-accuse-new-yorks-attorney-general-of-physical-abuse

https://nypost.com/2016/07/24/the-boy-scouts-are-thriving-after-ending-ban-on-gay-adults/

"In April 2015, the NY Councils played a key role in the BSA policy change, defying the ban by announcing the hiring of an 18-year-old gay Eagle Scout to work at one of its summer camps. Soon afterward, New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman’s office opened an inquiry into the BSA’s membership policies and influence over local councils’ hiring decisions. "

Hmm, maybe God has a sense of humor after all.  The rat turd who had a key role in the BSA policy change gets taken down in the #METOO movement.  Lol . . .

Now, I don't like false accusations and I think everyone should get their day in court, but this just couldn't happen to a better guy.  Glad God is finally smacking this rathole down a few notches.

 

[Vort]

God has nothing to do with this. Evil is its own "reward".

[Guest]

8 hours ago, mgridle said:

I guess they're going to take the last line of the Scout Oath out now.

[Rob Osborn]

I have felt for quite some time that Scouting in today's world was no longer cutting it. Our boys need a more spiritual program, one that teaches or reinforces in them the qualities of their true identity and roles as priesthood holders, future husband's, patriarchs, and Father's. The BSA wasn't really capable nor willing to do any of that. They had great merit but in the end, everything one learned at Scout camp didn't really prepare you to be a great husband of father or spiritual leader. Our world is changing so fast every day now. The coming of Christ is getting closer and we are not prepared. Thus the change to ramp up and prepare.

[Traveler]

My introduction into homosexuality came as a young boy scout.  Then again as a young man in the military during the Vietnam Conflict.  But I was lucky - was watched over and protected.  The result for me was a bitter hatred of sexual predators.  I had firsthand knowledge that there are sexual predators (wolves appearing as sheep) within the ranks of the homosexual community that use free sexual expression (the liberated man and the liberated woman) as a cover for their agenda and that the Boy Scouts and the military were prime targets for predators for reasons that are easy to explain if anyone is interested.  I have come to understand that many supporters of “gay rights” are not predatory but their unwillingness to deal with the full spectrum of abuses in gay relationships is the tall grass providing cover for the apex sexual predators on the Serengeti Plain of human society - now coming to an era of critical dought.

I believe I understand why the Church has remained supportive of the corrupted Boy Scouts – I believe the ripeness of evil only comes with the departure of the righteous.   I am reluctant knowing what will happen to millions of innocent children (both boys and girls) without a righteous guardian watching over them.  I believe that without the physical presents of honorable men that spiritual powers will also withdraw.  And I do not think for a moment that good LDS families will pass through this coming gauntlet unscathed.   And the injustices to those that unknowingly tread the minefields carefully positioned by Satan will be casualties in that great war which began in heaven eons ago.

I do not rejoice – I sorrow greatly.  When something rots from within – seldom is it discovered without harming those that unknowingly trust that humans are initially created loving and kind and should, given the chance, remain so.  It is not those that rejoice in evil that I morn as much as those that think the rot is safe – until they are harmed beyond their ability to recover – only to find those most qualified to assist them have abandoned the rot to “stand in holy places”.

 

The Traveler

Edited May 9, 2018 by Traveler

[mgridle]

57 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 I have come to understand that many supporters of “gay rights” are not predatory but their unwillingness to deal with the full spectrum of abuses in gay relationships is the tall grass providing cover for the apex sexual predators on the Serengeti Plain of human society - now coming to an era of critical dought.

A lot of wise comments there  and this is the money quote.  There are plenty of LGBTQetc. allies who are not predator who are really good people- but unfortunately they do not want to deal with the realities of what it actually means.  They shut off their brain, close their eyes and say "the bad stuff doesn't exist" and if you bring it up-you are the horrible, evil bad guy.

You literally can't have an open, honest, frank discussion without being branded as a "homophobe" or some evil doer and the effect is to tell others to just shut up about all the bad stuff b/c we don't want to even acknowledge it.  Closeted homosexuals in BSA is one thing, open homosexuals in an organization that is supposed to teach men how to become boys is a huge, huge problem-but don't say that or you will be labeled an "evil" person.

Take for example AIDS-it's a really simple disease to not get-it has extremely high rates in the homosexual community . . .gasp . . .but don't say it b/c if you bring out facts, you are a bad person. If homosexuals didn't practice homosexuality-AIDS would drop dramatically.

Edited May 9, 2018 by mgridle

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, mgridle said:

If homosexuals didn't practice homosexuality-AIDS would drop dramatically

So too would suicide rates drop amongst the lgbt youth.

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

My introduction into homosexuality came as a young boy scout.  Then again as a young man in the military during the Vietnam Conflict.  But I was lucky - was watched over and protected.  The result for me was a bitter hatred of sexual predators.  I had firsthand knowledge that there are sexual predators (wolves appearing as sheep) within the ranks of the homosexual community that use free sexual expression (the liberated man and the liberated woman) as a cover for their agenda and that the Boy Scouts and the military were prime targets for predators for reasons that are easy to explain if anyone is interested.  I have come to understand that many supporters of “gay rights” are not predatory but their unwillingness to deal with the full spectrum of abuses in gay relationships is the tall grass providing cover for the apex sexual predators on the Serengeti Plain of human society - now coming to an era of critical dought.

I believe I understand why the Church has remained supportive of the corrupted Boy Scouts – I believe the ripeness of evil only comes with the departure of the righteous.   I am reluctant knowing what will happen to millions of innocent children (both boys and girls) without a righteous guardian watching over them.  I believe that without the physical presents of honorable men that spiritual powers will also withdraw.  And I do not think for a moment that good LDS families will pass through this coming gauntlet unscathed.   And the injustices to those that unknowingly tread the minefields carefully positioned by Satan will be casualties in that great war which began in heaven eons ago.

I do not rejoice – I sorrow greatly.  When something rots from within – seldom is it discovered without harming those that unknowingly trust that humans are initially created loving and kind and should, given the chance, remain so.  It is not those that rejoice in evil that I morn as much as those that think the rot is safe – until they are harmed beyond their ability to recover – only to find those most qualified to assist them have abandoned the rot to “stand in holy places”.

 

The Traveler

I saw it at last year at scout camp that a measure of the spirit had already left the BSA and honestly felt my youth were more at risk for immoral behavior by staying in and continuing the program. I told the camp exec, when it was time to settle the money and roll-over for reserving a spot for next year, before I left that the scout camp that no longer was their program a benefit to my youth and we wouldnt be back and would do something different the next year. This year and next we are doing a stake young mens camp that will do a better job at preserving the path for our youth to learn to become men.

[Grunt]

I have no experience in the LDS Scouting relationship.  I chose not to enter my children in scouting when they came of age due to the changes in BSA policies.  However, a very good non-LDS friend of mine is active in scouts.  He's been ranting about how LDS ruined scouts, gave away Eagle Scout awards, and he's glad they're gone.  He said many LDS kids would join a non-LDS den because the LDS dens were so bad.

Sounds like sour grapes, but I have nothing to base it on.

[mgridle]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

I have no experience in the LDS Scouting relationship.  I chose not to enter my children in scouting when they came of age due to the changes in BSA policies.  However, a very good non-LDS friend of mine is active in scouts.  He's been ranting about how LDS ruined scouts, gave away Eagle Scout awards, and he's glad they're gone.  He said many LDS kids would join a non-LDS den because the LDS dens were so bad.

Sounds like sour grapes, but I have nothing to base it on.

Unfortunately, he's not entirely wrong. Some scout troops in Utah had very well-put together programs that did make the boys do everything they were required to do and b/c they did have well run programs boys were able to fully accomplish what they needed quickly.  Unfortunately, there were a lot of troops who did not.

In the interest of being "kind and nice" in these places, no boy was ever told, no you didn't do what was required to get the merit badge or to advance.  The leadership in the interest of being "nice and kind and charitable", let many, many, many boys advance through the ranks without the boys actually doing the work.  They allowed the boys to cut corners, or the parents would do the Eagle Scout project for them, etc.  It was a major, major disservice to the boys and made a mockery of the program in the areas where this was done.

So he actually does have a really good point.  My son was not in an LDS cub scout group-we did community scouts for this reason-they in general pushed the boys harder and required more of them.

I think it says more about Mormon Culture than anything else.

Edited May 9, 2018 by mgridle

[Grunt]

1 minute ago, mgridle said:

Unfortunately, he's not entirely wrong. Some scout troops in Utah had very well-put together programs that did make the boys do everything they were required to do.  Unfortunately, there were a lot of troops who did not.

In the interest of being "kind and nice" in these places, no boy was ever told, no you didn't do what was required to get the merit badge or to advance.  The leadership in the interest of being "nice and kind and charitable", let many, many, many boys advance through the ranks without the boys actually doing the work.  They allowed the boys to cut corners, or the parents would do the Eagle Scout project for them, etc.  It was a major, major disservice to the boys and made a mockery of the program in the areas where this was done.

So he actually does have a really good point.  My son was not in an LDS cub scout group-we did community scouts for this reason-they in general pushed the boys harder and required more of them.

I think it says more about Mormon Culture than anything else.

So that was LDS specific, not a general occurrence in some troops? 

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

I have no experience in the LDS Scouting relationship.  I chose not to enter my children in scouting when they came of age due to the changes in BSA policies.  However, a very good non-LDS friend of mine is active in scouts.  He's been ranting about how LDS ruined scouts, gave away Eagle Scout awards, and he's glad they're gone.  He said many LDS kids would join a non-LDS den because the LDS dens were so bad.

Sounds like sour grapes, but I have nothing to base it on.

Dude, they let ME be a cub scout leader for a few months. So yes, LDS standards for cub scout leadership are extremely low. 

[mgridle]

Just now, Grunt said:

So that was LDS specific, not a general occurrence in some troops? 

I honestly don't know how widespread it was-I don't live in Utah, but I definitely know pushing the boys along so they could get Eagle without doing all the actual requirements (or cutting corners) did and does happen (my mission provided the personal examples for this).  In non-LDS run Districts, it doesn't really happen, they are pretty strict on Eagle Scout projects and they grill the boys pretty good when they go for their Eagle Scout Board of Review.  In LDS run Districts, I'm sure it happens; just in general the Mormon Culture in Utah is pretty soft, i.e. let's just love everyone and sing kumbayaa and we really need to help xyz boy get his Eagle.  There is a lot of pressure in Utah for boys to get their Eagle-parents hold back privileges, etc.

As a former Eagle Scout, it should be 100% on the boy to get his Eagle, parents should certainly encourage it, but it needs to be them who does it.

[seashmore]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

He said many LDS kids would join a non-LDS den because the LDS dens were so bad.

On the flip side, we have a boy in our scout troop who's not LDS.  He comes at least one Wednesday a month, more than some of our YW.  I fully admit I don't know any ins or outs to Scouting (no brothers, no sons) and even less about LDS Scouting, but I have noticed that after every Scout campout, we spend a good twenty minutes in branch council talking about how wonderful examples our young men are to the non-LDS troops.  And let's not forget that all the other troops know of our influence because we are firm with any campout we plan, we only go through Saturday night.  The others are welcome to stay the night to Sunday morning, but our troop will be packed up and gone.  And they used to have the Blue and Gold Banquet on Sunday every year, until one year when no one was volunteering to host it.  Sister So-and-So said she would take charge if they could do it on a Friday, and wonder of wonder, miracle of miracles, now everyone and their brother's dog comes to it when before you were lucky to get anyone.

I will be so. glad. when we can stop spending half of our branch council talking about Boy Scouts. (Between the YM monthly campouts and concern for the 11 year olds who aren't really the target demographic for Boy Scouts, it really is half of our council time.)  It is going to take all of my restraint to not encourage our unit to loosen the ties before we cut them.

[Grunt]

2 minutes ago, seashmore said:

 

I will be so. glad. when we can stop spending half of our branch council talking about Boy Scouts. 

 

We don't have a troop.  At least I've never heard anyone mention it, and the Bishop is listed in LDS Tools as having all the scout related callings.

[estradling75]

14 hours ago, Grunt said:

So that was LDS specific, not a general occurrence in some troops? 

I have heard and seen enough to say it is a real possibility.

Here is a few problems that an LDS troop might have.

Boys not wanting to be there.  Other troops I understand require effort and money to join, so you get Boys (or at least parents) that want to be there.

LDS troop enrolled and try to include every boy even if they had no interest.  Totally understandable, but it totally changes the dynamic of the troop and how the troop operates.

Leaders.  Good scout leaders, want to be there, they spent alot of time learning and mastering the program.  Scout Master can hold the position for years.  In LDS troops Scout Master is a calling.  That meant that sometime you had leaders that didn't really want to be there, and some times you had leadership changes yearly or less.  I think the problems with this should be very clear.

Now image both of those and a culture really focused on getting "Eagle"  which some areas had.

Its a recipe for a really messed up program, at a very local level.  And it would entirely depend on factors found a the local level.  If you had a really strong and experienced LDS scout leader the program could be wonderful... But otherwise it could be a real mess.

 

[Rob Osborn]

16 hours ago, Grunt said:

I have no experience in the LDS Scouting relationship.  I chose not to enter my children in scouting when they came of age due to the changes in BSA policies.  However, a very good non-LDS friend of mine is active in scouts.  He's been ranting about how LDS ruined scouts, gave away Eagle Scout awards, and he's glad they're gone.  He said many LDS kids would join a non-LDS den because the LDS dens were so bad.

Sounds like sour grapes, but I have nothing to base it on.

I have been in scouts as a leader in just about every position in Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. LDS sponsored units usually have the best overall programs. One of the big problems you get outside of LDS units are units that are so focused on success and leader personal gratification that it comes at the expense of the boys. Often in non LDS units you get troops with more leaders than boys and all those leaders are not on the same page spiritually and you have all myriads of politics and issues. The greatest thing LDS units have going for them is their connectivity to the spirit and a special oneness in ideals.

There are of course bad or lazy leaders in the LDS units and that has a very negative impact on the program but in general they are few. 

Watching the whole program over two decades slip away and speaking with professional scouters (paid BSA employees) it's no wonder where the problem is. The BSA is not in position nor are they willing too, to make the program spiritual and address the real problems in society with our youth. Their push to be inclusive and far less spiritual and morally correct have forced the Church to sever ties and move on. The BSA ruined their own program. The LDS church was it's only saving grace. When the church finally departs the BSA will slip into Oblivion and whither and die.

[NightSG]

17 hours ago, mgridle said:

As a former Eagle Scout, it should be 100% on the boy to get his Eagle, parents should certainly encourage it, but it needs to be them who does it.

This.  I'm still in occasional contact with 3 Eagles from my old troop, and all three of them coordinated serious Eagle projects on their own, of substantial benefit to the community.  In fact, some of the repairs one did to the local history museum are still going strong 25 years later.

3 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Boys not wanting to be there.  Other troops I understand require effort and money to join, so you get Boys (or at least parents) that want to be there.

$33/year to national, plus generally no more than $24 to the local troop.  And every troop I've dealt with allows monthly payments, so you're talking $5/mo.  Even then, the churches sponsoring the troops will often cover any shortfall, so a Scout from a truly destitute family won't be turned away.

3 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Leaders.  Good scout leaders, want to be there, they spent alot of time learning and mastering the program.  Scout Master can hold the position for years.

Don Smith retired from Scouting just about the time I joined, after 20 years as Scoutmaster of Troop 39.  His son Larry took over from him, and 25 years later when Larry moved up to District leadership, his son Cory stepped up as Scoutmaster and is still running the troop now, carrying on the now-51-year tradition in spite of working ~75 miles away.  The main thing that Don passed on to his son, his grandson and any Scout or leader who would listen is to stop leading so actively; put the most responsible boys in charge, and just be available when they need help.

Cory was about three years ahead of me; he was my Patrol Leader when I joined, moved up to ASPL when I made Patrol Leader, and SPL shortly after that when the previous SPL's interests turned more to he girl who eventually became his fiance, and I ended up as the backup ASPL, mostly because I didn't have the sense to hide the first time the new ASPL couldn't make it to a meeting.  (It's usually not an issue, but sometimes the position is actually required for ceremonial or paperwork reasons, or just so the SPL can handle something without the Scoutmaster having to take over the rest of the troop.)  The times I had to stand in for an absent ASPL made me realize that if I ever need 40+ alley cats herded, Cory is well and truly qualified for the job.  When I ran across some of my old Scout stuff a couple years ago, there were more of his signatures on my requirements than any of the adult leaders.

When his Eagle Court of Honor was held, the fellowship hall at First Methodist was crowded.  Both local troops turned out in full, most of the parents, a fair number of grandparents, and I think most of the Baptists heard there was going to be food, so they showed up too.  Same for all the other CoHs I remember.

Then I went to one for an LDS Scout.  I felt sorry for the kid; the only other boy there in uniform (or what passed for it - the BSA shirt with faded jeans is, IMO, ok around camp or for weekly meetings, but not appropriate for those participating in a CoH) was his brother, and I'm sure that was only because Scoutmaster Dad made him show up.  It was the smallest chunk the cultural hall could section off, with extra space between the seats, and it was still only about a third full.  It was more like a Court of BSA Says We're Supposed To Do Something Formal So Let's Get This Over With.  And it's not that it had become too commonplace to warrant the formality and attendance common in non-LDS troops; the bishop commented afterward that it had been almost two years since they'd held one at the ward, in spite of having over a dozen Scouts in uniform, covering pretty much the entire age range evenly, at Sacrament Meeting a few weeks later.

I can only assume they didn't want any more there, as when I asked around, Troop 39 wasn't informed, and would have gladly attended to honor any Scout receiving his Eagle rank...even though the cheapskate Mormons only had (generic, slightly dusty, probably found in the cabinet) cookies and juice instead of a full meal.

3 hours ago, estradling75 said:

In LDS troops Scout Master is a calling.  That meant that sometime you had leaders that didn't really want to be there, and some times you had leadership changes yearly or less.  I think the problems with this should be very clear.

Right; you can't manufacture experience, and changing Scoutmasters that often makes it a matter of pure luck when you get a good one.

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

LDS sponsored units usually have the best overall programs.

SLC called; you're going to have to come up with a more convincing line if you expect them to pay you.

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

One of the big problems you get outside of LDS units are units that are so focused on success and leader personal gratification that it comes at the expense of the boys.

Where the heck were you looking?  Our adult leadership spent most of their time hiding behind a pile of paperwork to force the SPL and ASPL to run the meetings.

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Often in non LDS units you get troops with more leaders than boys

We had a Scoutmaster with 2-5 assistants (whatever number it took "on the books" to result in generally having two present at each meeting and activity) for a troop that averaged between 25-40 boys in attendance at weekly meetings.  AFAICT, the troop has shrunk, due to reduced interest in general, (and more in the last couple of years - the area is still predominately several variations of Southern Baptist, so the recent changes haven't gone over well with the chartering churches) and the other local troop merged with it to bring the numbers back up, but it's still around a 10-1 ratio.  I've never seen or heard of a non-LDS troop with over a 3:1 ratio, even counting Venturers over 18 as adult leaders.

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

and all those leaders are not on the same page spiritually and you have all myriads of politics and issues.

That's a special thing that BSA used to be very good at preparing boys for; reality.

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The greatest thing LDS units have going for them is their connectivity to the spirit and a special oneness in ideals.

Which is absolutely useless in teaching them to lead anything other than a small group of LDS children.  If you can only handle being around people who share your exact set of beliefs to the letter, you're not growing as a leader, or even as a functioning member of society in general.

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

There are of course bad or lazy leaders in the LDS units and that has a very negative impact on the program but in general they are few. 

Do you write press releases for police departments?  "We don't know anything at all about these 7,950 identical isolated incidents in our city over the last three days, except that they are not related to each other or to terrorism."