Halleluhah and there was much rejoicing


mgridle
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8 minutes ago, NightSG said:

The main thing that Don passed on to his son, his grandson and any Scout or leader who would listen is to stop leading so actively; put the most responsible boys in charge, and just be available when they need help.

This!  It was the core of scouting.  The leaders are there to guide, direct, provide inputs, encourage, set standards, but it was a "boy lead and run" program! Man, it taught so, so much. RIP BSA of old. . . .Unfortunately much of Utah culture went from develop character to let's make everyone a winner!

BSA went from Character Counts in '97 at the National Jamboree to let's let in transgenders in 2017-twenty years man, that was it.

Edited by mgridle
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16 minutes ago, NightSG said:

This.  I'm still in occasional contact with 3 Eagles from my old troop, and all three of them coordinated serious Eagle projects on their own, of substantial benefit to the community.  In fact, some of the repairs one did to the local history museum are still going strong 25 years later.

$33/year to national, plus generally no more than $24 to the local troop.  And every troop I've dealt with allows monthly payments, so you're talking $5/mo.  Even then, the churches sponsoring the troops will often cover any shortfall, so a Scout from a truly destitute family won't be turned away.

Don Smith retired from Scouting just about the time I joined, after 20 years as Scoutmaster of Troop 39.  His son Larry took over from him, and 25 years later when Larry moved up to District leadership, his son Cory stepped up as Scoutmaster and is still running the troop now, carrying on the now-51-year tradition in spite of working ~75 miles away.  The main thing that Don passed on to his son, his grandson and any Scout or leader who would listen is to stop leading so actively; put the most responsible boys in charge, and just be available when they need help.

Cory was about three years ahead of me; he was my Patrol Leader when I joined, moved up to ASPL when I made Patrol Leader, and SPL shortly after that when the previous SPL's interests turned more to he girl who eventually became his fiance, and I ended up as the backup ASPL, mostly because I didn't have the sense to hide the first time the new ASPL couldn't make it to a meeting.  (It's usually not an issue, but sometimes the position is actually required for ceremonial or paperwork reasons, or just so the SPL can handle something without the Scoutmaster having to take over the rest of the troop.)  The times I had to stand in for an absent ASPL made me realize that if I ever need 40+ alley cats herded, Cory is well and truly qualified for the job.  When I ran across some of my old Scout stuff a couple years ago, there were more of his signatures on my requirements than any of the adult leaders.

When his Eagle Court of Honor was held, the fellowship hall at First Methodist was crowded.  Both local troops turned out in full, most of the parents, a fair number of grandparents, and I think most of the Baptists heard there was going to be food, so they showed up too.  Same for all the other CoHs I remember.

Then I went to one for an LDS Scout.  I felt sorry for the kid; the only other boy there in uniform (or what passed for it - the BSA shirt with faded jeans is, IMO, ok around camp or for weekly meetings, but not appropriate for those participating in a CoH) was his brother, and I'm sure that was only because Scoutmaster Dad made him show up.  It was the smallest chunk the cultural hall could section off, with extra space between the seats, and it was still only about a third full.  It was more like a Court of BSA Says We're Supposed To Do Something Formal So Let's Get This Over With.  And it's not that it had become too commonplace to warrant the formality and attendance common in non-LDS troops; the bishop commented afterward that it had been almost two years since they'd held one at the ward, in spite of having over a dozen Scouts in uniform, covering pretty much the entire age range evenly, at Sacrament Meeting a few weeks later.

I can only assume they didn't want any more there, as when I asked around, Troop 39 wasn't informed, and would have gladly attended to honor any Scout receiving his Eagle rank...even though the cheapskate Mormons only had (generic, slightly dusty, probably found in the cabinet) cookies and juice instead of a full meal.

Right; you can't manufacture experience, and changing Scoutmasters that often makes it a matter of pure luck when you get a good one.

SLC called; you're going to have to come up with a more convincing line if you expect them to pay you.

Where the heck were you looking?  Our adult leadership spent most of their time hiding behind a pile of paperwork to force the SPL and ASPL to run the meetings.

We had a Scoutmaster with 2-5 assistants (whatever number it took "on the books" to result in generally having two present at each meeting and activity) for a troop that averaged between 25-40 boys in attendance at weekly meetings.  AFAICT, the troop has shrunk, due to reduced interest in general, (and more in the last couple of years - the area is still predominately several variations of Southern Baptist, so the recent changes haven't gone over well with the chartering churches) and the other local troop merged with it to bring the numbers back up, but it's still around a 10-1 ratio.  I've never seen or heard of a non-LDS troop with over a 3:1 ratio, even counting Venturers over 18 as adult leaders.

That's a special thing that BSA used to be very good at preparing boys for; reality.

Which is absolutely useless in teaching them to lead anything other than a small group of LDS children.  If you can only handle being around people who share your exact set of beliefs to the letter, you're not growing as a leader, or even as a functioning member of society in general.

Do you write press releases for police departments?  "We don't know anything at all about these 7,950 identical isolated incidents in our city over the last three days, except that they are not related to each other or to terrorism."

Wow, did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed or what?

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13 minutes ago, NightSG said:

$33/year to national, plus generally no more than $24 to the local troop.  And every troop I've dealt with allows monthly payments, so you're talking $5/mo.  Even then, the churches sponsoring the troops will often cover any shortfall, so a Scout from a truly destitute family won't be turned away.

Please note I was not in anyway trying to imply that destitute kids/families are turned away by non-LDS troop.  I know every little about how non-LDS troop function, other then the point of the boys (or the boys family) really wanting to be there.

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As a registered scout leader in the BSA for almost the last twenty years I can affirm that the LDS church and its volunteer leadership was the best thing the BSA could have ever had. Now the BSA will get to see the fruits of throwing the LDS church under the bus and not taking them seriously.

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5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

As a registered scout leader in the BSA for almost the last twenty years I can affirm that the LDS church and its volunteer leadership was the best thing the BSA could have ever had.

The Church gutted the leadership training model the BSA had been successful with for years, cheapened its highest award by handing it out to kids who couldn't even meet Tenderfoot requirements, and basically did nothing in its favor except throw money at it.

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49 minutes ago, NightSG said:

The Church gutted the leadership training model the BSA had been successful with for years, cheapened its highest award by handing it out to kids who couldn't even meet Tenderfoot requirements, and basically did nothing in its favor except throw money at it.

The Church did that?  Or your ward did that?  Because... our ward didn't do that.

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1 hour ago, NightSG said:

The Church gutted the leadership training model the BSA had been successful with for years, cheapened its highest award by handing it out to kids who couldn't even meet Tenderfoot requirements, and basically did nothing in its favor except throw money at it.

Well, plain and simply- you are wrong. 

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14 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, plain and simply- you are wrong. 

Plain and simply, no I am not. 

I do occasionally feel a little bit sorry for the LDS "Eagles" who feel bad that I don't respect their unearned rank when they can't tie knots specifically set out as requirements for lower ranks, after any real Scout has tied those knots in real use so many times they're as easy as a shoelace bow by the time they make Star, or when they get called out on "leadership skills" that make the incompetent twit "running" the night shift at McDonald's look like Teddy Roosevelt by comparison, or when they have to admit their "service project" was digging out some dead landscaping on part of the stake center's lot. 

They're completely lost in the real world when daddy isn't there to hold their hand and sign off on the requirement, or the infidels won't accept "because a Seventy's cat's dental hygienist said so and the First Presidency didn't take time in GC to repudiate each point and excommunicate the cat, therefore God said so" as an irrefutable argument.  It's really their parents' fault that they weren't in a real troop where they would have to meet the actual requirements, but then they go on and do the same to their kids.

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3 hours ago, NightSG said:

The Church gutted the leadership training model the BSA had been successful with for years, cheapened its highest award by handing it out to kids who couldn't even meet Tenderfoot requirements, and basically did nothing in its favor except throw money at it.

Nonsense.

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3 hours ago, NightSG said:

Plain and simply, no I am not. 

I do occasionally feel a little bit sorry for the LDS "Eagles" who feel bad that I don't respect their unearned rank when they can't tie knots specifically set out as requirements for lower ranks, after any real Scout has tied those knots in real use so many times they're as easy as a shoelace bow by the time they make Star, or when they get called out on "leadership skills" that make the incompetent twit "running" the night shift at McDonald's look like Teddy Roosevelt by comparison, or when they have to admit their "service project" was digging out some dead landscaping on part of the stake center's lot. 

They're completely lost in the real world when daddy isn't there to hold their hand and sign off on the requirement, or the infidels won't accept "because a Seventy's cat's dental hygienist said so and the First Presidency didn't take time in GC to repudiate each point and excommunicate the cat, therefore God said so" as an irrefutable argument.  It's really their parents' fault that they weren't in a real troop where they would have to meet the actual requirements, but then they go on and do the same to their kids.

Well, I don't know what small backwoods ward you are in but around where I live the scouting program was very strong up until these latest changes. The latest young man in my young men's group who just finished his eagle project did this-

A particular street corner was too sharp and as a consequence large trucks with trailers couldn't make the turn. He had to go to City Hall, get approved, contacted the Rail Road as the corner bordered on the RR line. Then he had to go door to door and speak with businesses and homes effected. Had to line up the right construction equipment and companies willing to donate equipment and supplies. He worked with the surveyors with maps and plans to change the entire corner. When the day approached he blocked off the road, had about 20 youth he was in charge of. All had to wear hard hats and orange safety jackets. Then the construction equipment was unloaded and they ripped up the old asphalt and cement sidewalk. He then oversaw the debris removal by tractors and manual labor from the youth. This too several days. Then he organized another crew to tamp the area down and level it. Then a few days later he ran another crew to set up the concrete forms. The next two days were spent by this same crew laying about thirty feet of new sidewalk and curbing and shaping it. Then the forms were removed and he then had the asphalt poured and leveled. This whole time he had the street blocked off and had another crew as manual laborers to remove old bushes and tree limbs, garbage, etc. The project took about two weeks labor wise. This is pretty typical of the type of LDS eagle projects around where I live as  far as preparation and labor and oversight goes. Here is an actual picture I took of that project-

 

20170808_171354.jpg

Edited by Rob Osborn
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36 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The latest young man in my young men's group who just finished his eagle project did this

That's a pretty good project-congrats to the boy.  I hate the projects that basically amount to a book drive or a blood drive . . . big deal-that's simple and no real lasting impact.

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6 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, I don't know what small backwoods ward you are in but around where I live the scouting program was very strong up until these latest changes.

The "service project" I referenced was actually in a teeny tiny inbred hick town hundreds of miles from any sort of civilization called Spanish Fork Utah.  (Mainly because my former HT companion won't even admit what his was, and several others I asked didn't make Eagle because they didn't do one at all.)  Clearly there was nothing else around that he could have done besides be a day or so worth of free labor for the stake center's existing project.  And the worst of the "leaders" I've had to deal with are inordinately proud of having grown up in or near SLC before deciding to oh so generously bestow their presence upon the heathens of Texas.

5 hours ago, mgridle said:

I hate the projects that basically amount to a book drive or a blood drive . . . big deal-that's simple and no real lasting impact.

You mean like:

Made a video to teach people how to read the expiration dates on food cans and gathered food for a local food bank.
Collected breakfast food for a local food bank and got people together to serve for one dinner meal.
Sanded, painted and put wheels on little cars to be sent out to poor countries.
Collected books for Timp Regional Hospital.
Collected clothes, toys, and food for a local crisis center.
Cleaned up weeds and trash at Lakeview Academy playgrounds.
Provided canes for the residents of the Parkway Health Care Facility.
Police emergency child kits.  (I dunno; maybe he stuffed kids in boxes and mailed them to cops.)
Replaced smoke detectors in over 150 homes for LDS Church. (Let the infidels burn.)
Collected action figures and toys for children at Primary Children’s Hospital Heroes for Heroes program.
Collected, sorted and cleaned children’s books and bookcases to put in dentists’ waiting rooms.
Cut white boards and material into handheld white boards for Mountainville Academy.
Cleaned and painted 483 linear feet of curbing for bus parking at Eagle Crest Elementary in Lehi.
Designed and made 10 wooden puzzles for special needs children.
Painted house numbers on curbs for the Geneva Heights Second Ward area.
Collected many bags of clothing for The Road Home homeless shelter in Salt Lake City.
Set posts on trails in part of Eagle Mountain to mark mileage for runners.
Built wooden toy puzzles for Kids on the Move.
Made, stuffed and sewed 100 dolls for the children at Primary Children’s Hospital.
Collected supplies for activity and comfort for those in waiting room at Orem Community Hospital.
Organized a clothing drive for Builders Without Borders.
Gave emergency gas shut off keys to the Pleasant Grove Fire Department. (Seriously?  Like, three minutes on eBay?)
Organized a food drive for the Salt Lake Rescue Mission.
Helped with an art room easel clean-up.  (Gee, that must have required seconds of planning and coordination.)

All from UtahScouts.org.  These are mostly reasonable for the hours of community service requirements on lower ranks, but realistically, they don't come anywhere near meeting the requirement to "plan, develop, and give leadership to others" at a level that should be expected of an Eagle candidate.  As best I can recall, the museum repairs were the smallest project done during my time, since they only involved about half the troop and a dozen or so adults with the skills and tools for the skilled labor parts of the project.  The biggest involved at least four troops and several dozen adult volunteers to clean up litter and repair camping facilities on a few thousand acres of Army Corps of Engineers park land.

Edited by NightSG
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6 hours ago, NightSG said:

The "service project" I referenced was actually in a teeny tiny inbred hick town hundreds of miles from any sort of civilization called Spanish Fork Utah.  (Mainly because my former HT companion won't even admit what his was, and several others I asked didn't make Eagle because they didn't do one at all.)  Clearly there was nothing else around that he could have done besides be a day or so worth of free labor for the stake center's existing project.  And the worst of the "leaders" I've had to deal with are inordinately proud of having grown up in or near SLC before deciding to oh so generously bestow their presence upon the heathens of Texas.

You mean like:

Made a video to teach people how to read the expiration dates on food cans and gathered food for a local food bank.
Collected breakfast food for a local food bank and got people together to serve for one dinner meal.
Sanded, painted and put wheels on little cars to be sent out to poor countries.
Collected books for Timp Regional Hospital.
Collected clothes, toys, and food for a local crisis center.
Cleaned up weeds and trash at Lakeview Academy playgrounds.
Provided canes for the residents of the Parkway Health Care Facility.
Police emergency child kits.  (I dunno; maybe he stuffed kids in boxes and mailed them to cops.)
Replaced smoke detectors in over 150 homes for LDS Church. (Let the infidels burn.)
Collected action figures and toys for children at Primary Children’s Hospital Heroes for Heroes program.
Collected, sorted and cleaned children’s books and bookcases to put in dentists’ waiting rooms.
Cut white boards and material into handheld white boards for Mountainville Academy.
Cleaned and painted 483 linear feet of curbing for bus parking at Eagle Crest Elementary in Lehi.
Designed and made 10 wooden puzzles for special needs children.
Painted house numbers on curbs for the Geneva Heights Second Ward area.
Collected many bags of clothing for The Road Home homeless shelter in Salt Lake City.
Set posts on trails in part of Eagle Mountain to mark mileage for runners.
Built wooden toy puzzles for Kids on the Move.
Made, stuffed and sewed 100 dolls for the children at Primary Children’s Hospital.
Collected supplies for activity and comfort for those in waiting room at Orem Community Hospital.
Organized a clothing drive for Builders Without Borders.
Gave emergency gas shut off keys to the Pleasant Grove Fire Department. (Seriously?  Like, three minutes on eBay?)
Organized a food drive for the Salt Lake Rescue Mission.
Helped with an art room easel clean-up.  (Gee, that must have required seconds of planning and coordination.)

All from UtahScouts.org.  These are mostly reasonable for the hours of community service requirements on lower ranks, but realistically, they don't come anywhere near meeting the requirement to "plan, develop, and give leadership to others" at a level that should be expected of an Eagle candidate.  As best I can recall, the museum repairs were the smallest project done during my time, since they only involved about half the troop and a dozen or so adults with the skills and tools for the skilled labor parts of the project.  The biggest involved at least four troops and several dozen adult volunteers to clean up litter and repair camping facilities on a few thousand acres of Army Corps of Engineers park land.

Spanish Fork eh. I once had a job driving cabinets for the company I worked for everyday to Spanish Fork.

One of the problems with the BSA is the time frame to March through and get the eagle can happen before they turn 14. In my opinion an eagle project is better when the boys are 16-17 years old- they are so much better prepared at that age.

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46 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

One of the problems with the BSA is the time frame to March through and get the eagle can happen before they turn 14.

CAN happen.  It's not encouraged by anyone other than the Church.  That's like blaming Chevy for making cars that are capable of going faster than their crash safety features are designed to save you.  The short time-in-rank requirements up to First Class are to help Scouts not get too bogged down on waiting when they've completed requirements ahead of time, and Star, Life and Eagle all have minimum times equal to the minimum time required serving in certain capacities while at the prior rank.  I'm also fairly certain the move to add six more options to the "while a ____ Scout, serve as _____ for 6 months" was Church driven so they could have more boys pushing through those requirements at any given time.  (Seriously?  Patrol Leader qualifies now?)

To my knowledge, (and I'll likely see Larry this weekend, so I'll ask him if he knows of any) none of the non-LDS Scouts around here in the last 30+ years made Eagle before 16, and I've certainly never heard of any leadership pushing them to do more than First Class at 13.  (And that only because 13 and FC is (or was, in the late 80s) the requirement for Jamboree and other major activities.)

Edited by NightSG
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25 minutes ago, NightSG said:

CAN happen.  It's not encouraged by anyone other than the Church.  That's like blaming Chevy for making cars that are capable of going faster than their crash safety features are designed to save you.  The short time-in-rank requirements up to First Class are to help Scouts not get too bogged down on waiting when they've completed requirements ahead of time, and Star, Life and Eagle all have minimum times equal to the minimum time required serving in certain capacities while at the prior rank. 

To my knowledge, (and I'll likely see Larry this weekend, so I'll ask him if he knows of any) none of the non-LDS Scouts around here in the last 30+ years made Eagle before 16, and I've certainly never heard of any leadership pushing them to do more than First Class at 13.  (And that only because 13 and FC is (or was, in the late 80s) the requirement for Jamboree and other major activities.)

Non-LDS troops don't have 11-year-old Scouts.  My husband was the 11-year-old Scout leader for our ward for a long time (I think 6 or 7 years).  Most of his 11-year-old Scouts earned First Class on or shortly after they turned 12.  Most of them got their Eagles at 15/16, 2 did not finish until they were 17 and that was only because my husband hounded them to get it done before they graduated seminary.  My 14-year-old completed all his reqs except for the Eagle project when he turned 14.  He's still trying to figure out an Eagle project.  His older brother did the same.  He got his Eagle project approved when he was 14.  It's been over a year and he's still not done with it.

The Presbyterian Church down the road - where my sons started Tiger Scouts because we don't have those in Church - is a ginormous troop.  They have several kids get Eagles when they're 14.  You see these young bucks running the activities at the yearly summer scout camp.  They seem to stay there until they go to college or something even when they've got Eagle years ago.  One of them got on the news for his Eagle project he did when he was 14 - something about some work he did for Ronald McDonald's.  Can't remember what it was anymore.

Anyway, Age expectations is very interesting to me.  I started my career when I was 11 years old.  By the time I was 14, I was teaching DBase and FoxBase classes at the IT Center having at least 15 students most of which are in their middle-age trying to get out of the IBM mainframe world.  Joseph Smith was given his revelation at 14, I heard Mary was visited by the angel at the same age.  And then, of course, there are the barely teen kids over here in the Philippines being the breadwinner of the family... I just saw kids this morning who look like they're no more than 8 years old working as divers.

Edited by anatess2
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15 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Non-LDS troops don't have 11-year-old Scouts.

Uh, yes, they do.  I was an 11 year old Scout in a regular troop.  I had my Arrow of Light, so I could have joined just before 11, but my birthday was two weeks after 5th grade completion anyway and we traveled out of state for most of that time.

What regular troops don't do is split out age groups for any reason; having the full 11-17 range in the troop together with no age restrictions on positions of responsibility allows them to start taking on leadership roles as soon as they're ready, as well as ensuring that, right from the start, those 11 year olds are seeing (sometimes not much) older Scouts being effective in leadership roles.

Edited by NightSG
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11 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Uh, yes, they do.  I was an 11 year old Scout in a regular troop.  I had my Arrow of Light, so I could have joined just before 11, but my birthday was two weeks after 5th grade completion anyway and we traveled out of state for most of that time.

You misunderstood me.  Non-LDS don't have 11-year-old Scouts program.  11 year olds join the rest of the Boy Scouts in non-LDS troops not a separate den under the Cub Scouts. 

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7 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

You misunderstood me.  Non-LDS don't have 11-year-old Scouts program.  11 year olds join the rest of the Boy Scouts in non-LDS troops not a separate den under the Cub Scouts. 

Right, which is a part of the BSA leadership training model.  As I said, it lets those Scouts start seeing what they can aspire to over the next couple of years right away, and learn directly from the older Scouts who are in those positions.  Plus having 10-11 year olds in the group both increases the number led and enhances the leadership experience of the PL, ASPL and SPL.

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4 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Right, which is a part of the BSA leadership training model.  As I said, it lets those Scouts start seeing what they can aspire to over the next couple of years right away, and learn directly from the older Scouts who are in those positions.  Plus having 10-11 year olds in the group both increases the number led and enhances the leadership experience of the PL, ASPL and SPL.

That's if the ONLY experience they have is Scouting.  Scouting is just one part of the Church's youth development program, so you got 10-11 year olds holding leadership roles in other areas of Primary plus their looking up to the older boys as they aspire for the Priesthood.

Edited by anatess2
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2 hours ago, NightSG said:

CAN happen.  It's not encouraged by anyone other than the Church.  That's like blaming Chevy for making cars that are capable of going faster than their crash safety features are designed to save you.  The short time-in-rank requirements up to First Class are to help Scouts not get too bogged down on waiting when they've completed requirements ahead of time, and Star, Life and Eagle all have minimum times equal to the minimum time required serving in certain capacities while at the prior rank.  I'm also fairly certain the move to add six more options to the "while a ____ Scout, serve as _____ for 6 months" was Church driven so they could have more boys pushing through those requirements at any given time.  (Seriously?  Patrol Leader qualifies now?)

To my knowledge, (and I'll likely see Larry this weekend, so I'll ask him if he knows of any) none of the non-LDS Scouts around here in the last 30+ years made Eagle before 16, and I've certainly never heard of any leadership pushing them to do more than First Class at 13.  (And that only because 13 and FC is (or was, in the late 80s) the requirement for Jamboree and other major activities.)

Hum...I guess your neck of the woods doesn't match mine. The bottom line is that if it was ten years ago and I was going to put my son in either a LDS church troop versus a different it would be without a doubt to send him to the LDS one. I've been a Scoutmaster or other type of scout calling for the better part of the last twenty years and worked alongside nondenominational and other religious troops and the LDS troops hands down have the better programs.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

That's if the ONLY experience they have is Scouting.  Scouting is just one part of the Church's youth development program, so you got 10-11 year olds holding leadership roles in other areas of Primary plus their looking up to the older boys as they aspire for the Priesthood.

That's a far cry from learning camping skills hands-on in the woods from them, or going through a first aid or water rescue challenge right alongside them.

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4 hours ago, NightSG said:

Uh, yes, they do.  I was an 11 year old Scout in a regular troop.  I had my Arrow of Light, so I could have joined just before 11, but my birthday was two weeks after 5th grade completion anyway and we traveled out of state for most of that time.

What regular troops don't do is split out age groups for any reason; having the full 11-17 range in the troop together with no age restrictions on positions of responsibility allows them to start taking on leadership roles as soon as they're ready, as well as ensuring that, right from the start, those 11 year olds are seeing (sometimes not much) older Scouts being effective in leadership roles.

 

There is a lot of history between the LDS church and the BSA.  Some of the history is good and some – not so good.  The big problem I have had is that we LDS do not really operate scout troops.   This is in part because of the vast differences in interests between the ages of 12 and 18 experience in our modern youth.  I will outline just some of the problems I experienced:

#1. The LDS Church wanted to make the scouts an extension of Aaronic priesthood quorums.  The problem is that Aaronic Priesthood quorum presidencies do not operate the same as patrol leaders (in number, operation or organizational purpose) – the organization types are completely incompatible.   Plus, it is difficult (impossible) to implement a patrol method troop in a ward with 5 or fewer deacons.  As a rule, scouts are community focused in their service and deacons are ward focused in their service.  Unfortunately, few LDS priesthood leaders understand the depth of the difference.

#2. Fund raising – In a number of states the Church is under continual scrutiny by distractors that want to remove the tax-exempt status of the Church and tax the Church as a profit-making entity.  In the State of Washington (when I was working with the scouts there) we were not allowed to hold any fundraising on Church property.  This and other problems limited fundraising to operations inside the ward boundary and almost exclusively with members.

In addition, there are ill feelings when the young men have many more $$$$ in funds than the young women.  This became a big problem when I was a scout master and we had activities (paid for through our very successful fundraising) like snowmobiling through Yellowstone Park in winter and horseback wilderness expeditions in summer.

#3 Legal Lability issues between the Church and the BSA.  This is a personal pet peeve of mine.  The BSA forces all LDS members associated with the scouts to sign a legal waver which prevents anyone sewing any BSA official for misconduct – but there is not agree that the BSA will not seek $$$ settlements with serving LDS members for anything the BCS wishes.  I discovered this because I personally do not sign any contracts without an approval from my lawyer.  Our society is far to litigious.

As much as I realize the problems – I am sure communities will be impacted by the Church withdrawing from the BSA.  I feel this is a strategic loss to the “Dark Side” elements gaining positions in our society.

 

The Traveler

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27 minutes ago, Traveler said:

#1. The LDS Church wanted to make the scouts an extension of Aaronic priesthood quorums.  The problem is that Aaronic Priesthood quorum presidencies do not operate the same as patrol leaders (in number, operation or organizational purpose) – the organization types are completely incompatible.   Plus, it is difficult (impossible) to implement a patrol method troop in a ward with 5 or fewer deacons.  As a rule, scouts are community focused in their service and deacons are ward focused in their service.  Unfortunately, few LDS priesthood leaders understand the depth of the difference.

Considering that LDS Scouting seems to consider the Church to be the only "community" worthy of service in the vast majority of cases, (as evidenced by the number of Eagle service projects that only benefited the ward or stake) I'm not sure there really is a distinction to be made for that purpose.

Still, other churches have found a very simple way to have both an active Scout troop and an active youth program, simply by keeping them separate and making sure they were held on different evenings.

27 minutes ago, Traveler said:

#2. Fund raising – In a number of states the Church is under continual scrutiny by distractors that want to remove the tax-exempt status of the Church and tax the Church as a profit-making entity.  In the State of Washington (when I was working with the scouts there) we were not allowed to hold any fundraising on Church property.  This and other problems limited fundraising to operations inside the ward boundary and almost exclusively with members.

We did relatively little fundraising, since the Smith family has a couple hundred acres about 15 miles away, and at least one of the ASMs also had land where we could camp, as well as some of the other parents.  It made for something of a fundraising crunch when major gear needed to be replaced, but the local churches and Lions' Club could always be counted on to provide food for campouts and smaller cash contributions for things like upkeep on the Scout hut.

27 minutes ago, Traveler said:

In addition, there are ill feelings when the young men have many more $$$$ in funds than the young women.  This became a big problem when I was a scout master and we had activities (paid for through our very successful fundraising) like snowmobiling through Yellowstone Park in winter and horseback wilderness expeditions in summer.

Why is that?  Are the YWs discouraged from fundraising, or is their leadership just not willing to set similar goals and work toward them? 

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