Ken S.

I Cant Wrap My Head Around Men Becoming Gods

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Supposedly God was once a man in flesh and bone.  So at one time, a God had to create him. But then that God must have been a man at one time then right? Where did he come from? Another God who was once a man also? Somewhere along the line, there had to be a first God. One that wasnt a man ever.  I mean this cant be the Chicken or the egg thing here. There is just no way man has always been around and has no beginning. There is no way man became God first. Logically it had to be a God who was not a man and created the first man.  If that is true, and there was one God who was first among all and he created man, why would he then allow man to ascend to become a God like him? Why would he want others to be his equal? That doesnt seemt o fit with me either.  So there had to be a first God, and I cant see the first God deciding to let simple men that he created to become his equal. So only two possibilities seem to fit here.

1) There is still one True God above all others.

2) I saw someone post the idea that evolution actually did take place, and life forms evolved by accident and became the first men and one of them became the first God. But evolution doesnt fit either IMO, because it has never been observed for any non-living form to become a living form. Never have we observed any non-intelligent non-self aware life form to develop into an intelligent life form. And if evolution happened then where did the entire universe come from? The big bang theory is all but proven now, but they dont have any answer for where that first matter form that exploded or imploded or whatever came from. Science has proven one thing. All energy and matter changes from one form to another, but something cannot come from nothing. Not through science. So there had to be a God who created that first particle that created the big bang that evolved into a universe and developed life and became man for man to become Gods.

So basically, we are back to one initial God before all others.... who created man through evolution.... and let that man ascend to be his equal..... it just doesnt seem logical to me.

Can you see my problem with this?  I just cant seem to get it to add up.No matter how I try to look at it, logically it goes back to one God who had to be first and being of no beginning to him as he was always here.

Now one might say they dont believe there can be something that never had a beginning, but if you can believe in an eternity with no end, then cant you have an eternity with no beginning? But if you had a beginning, then logically dont you have to have an end too?  Again, it just doesnt seem to add up for me.

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Eternity is one Eternal round. One cannot think in terms of timelines regarding God as He has all things before Him, obviating time. Time is a human construct. Our human reasoning tends circular as in your analysis   But I don’t think that’s the way things are.

There is a famous couplet. 

As man is, God once was. 

As God is man may become. 

This knowledge was restored to us by means of the prophet Joseph Smith. It makes perfect sense, and knowing this, one reads the Bible with new understanding. 

Edited by mrmarklin

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1 hour ago, Ken S. said:

 it just doesnt seem logical to me.

This is probably the moment where you will have to decide for yourself that:
1. you must find a way to put God into a logical timeline/sequential box and unravel all the mysteries of the universe*
or
2. Act upon faith, realizing that you are not going to unravel all the mysteries of the universe in this lifetime no matter how much you try.

*if you choose option 1, you will probably be disappointed to learn that the answers to those mysteries are probably in reserve for us only once we have passed on from this life. It will be an exercise in futility as these answers don't appear to be necessary for us to know right now in order to complete our mortal journeys.

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3 hours ago, Ken S. said:

Supposedly God was once a man in flesh and bone.  So at one time, a God had to create him. But then that God must have been a man at one time then right? Where did he come from? Another God who was once a man also? Somewhere along the line, there had to be a first God. One that wasnt a man ever.  I mean this cant be the Chicken or the egg thing here. There is just no way man has always been around and has no beginning. There is no way man became God first. Logically it had to be a God who was not a man and created the first man.  If that is true, and there was one God who was first among all and he created man, why would he then allow man to ascend to become a God like him? Why would he want others to be his equal? That doesnt seemt o fit with me either.  So there had to be a first God, and I cant see the first God deciding to let simple men that he created to become his equal. So only two possibilities seem to fit here.

1) There is still one True God above all others.

2) I saw someone post the idea that evolution actually did take place, and life forms evolved by accident and became the first men and one of them became the first God. But evolution doesnt fit either IMO, because it has never been observed for any non-living form to become a living form. Never have we observed any non-intelligent non-self aware life form to develop into an intelligent life form. And if evolution happened then where did the entire universe come from? The big bang theory is all but proven now, but they dont have any answer for where that first matter form that exploded or imploded or whatever came from. Science has proven one thing. All energy and matter changes from one form to another, but something cannot come from nothing. Not through science. So there had to be a God who created that first particle that created the big bang that evolved into a universe and developed life and became man for man to become Gods.

So basically, we are back to one initial God before all others.... who created man through evolution.... and let that man ascend to be his equal..... it just doesnt seem logical to me.

Can you see my problem with this?  I just cant seem to get it to add up.No matter how I try to look at it, logically it goes back to one God who had to be first and being of no beginning to him as he was always here.

Now one might say they dont believe there can be something that never had a beginning, but if you can believe in an eternity with no end, then cant you have an eternity with no beginning? But if you had a beginning, then logically dont you have to have an end too?  Again, it just doesnt seem to add up for me.

So, to your mind, God is sufficiently lacking in power and knowledge needed to deify His crowning creation?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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There is only one God to us. That is our father in heaven. Someone put it in prettier words than myself, but I paraphrased something. Our father will always be that to us.

Intelligence can be neither created or made. Thus Eternal. 

If God, [and us technically] have always been around we don't need to worry about the chicken and egg idea, because it simply becomes one of progression.

Less like chickens and more like rock becomes sand, sand becomes sand stone, sand stone transforms into various metamorphic rocks.... etc... (Not that this comparison per say is doctrinal)

Edited by Crypto

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8 hours ago, Ken S. said:

Can you see my problem with this?  I just cant seem to get it to add up.No matter how I try to look at it, logically it goes back to one God who had to be first and being of no beginning to him as he was always here.

Now one might say they dont believe there can be something that never had a beginning, but if you can believe in an eternity with no end, then cant you have an eternity with no beginning? But if you had a beginning, then logically dont you have to have an end too?  Again, it just doesnt seem to add up for me.

What you can't get your head around is the idea of "No Beginning".  You really can't understand the nature of eternity.  Eternity is not just from today onward.  It goes both directions.  That's what you can't get your head around.

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11 hours ago, Ken S. said:

Now one might say they dont believe there can be something that never had a beginning

The scriptures teach that eternity goes in both directions (as already mentioned).  Joseph Smith taught that there is neither a beginning nor an ending.  Methinks if you could hie to Kolob in the twinkling of an eye, that you could never, through all eternity, find out the generation where Gods began to be, nor see the grand beginning where space did not extend.

10 hours ago, Ken S. said:

Somewhere along the line, there had to be a first God.

Eternity past is, in my opinion, the single most difficult thing for the mortal mind to try to grasp.  We simply cannot fathom the idea of no beginning.  Our lives start with a beginning and are full of beginnings and so long as we live, have no end, and we imagine they will go on for eternity.  Eternity future is easy for us.  Eternity past beyond us.  We can try and try and try, and I do and recommend it to others, but I don't think we'll understand until we remember.  Right now, all we remember is a bunch of beginnings.

10 hours ago, Ken S. said:

why would he then allow man to ascend to become a God like him? Why would he want others to be his equal? That doesnt seemt o fit with me either.

Old Testament and Related Studies, chapter 6: Unrolling the Scrolls--Some Forgotten Witnesses, by Hugh Nibley (emphasis mine):

Quote

Conspicuously lacking in the divine hierarchy is any sense of rank or class. Obedience and subordination in nowise jeopardize individual freedom and leadership and command, and in no way impose dictatorship as long as the whole concern of those above is to reach down in love to those below, and those below strive to rise in love to those above. (Moses 1:38—39.) This sense of equality pervades everything here. Every spirit, says the Apocryphon of John, is a “monarchia,” a rule unto itself, and subject to no one, having been in the very beginning with God. There is thus that about it that can never be forced. (One of President Heber J. Grant’s favorite expressions was “Never force the human mind.”)

Moses 1:39, by God:

Quote

For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

What greater joy is an omniscient, eternal being to have, once he's "been there, done that", than to help others get there and do that?

11 hours ago, Ken S. said:

I cant see the first God deciding to let simple men that he created to become his equal

Fortunately, God is a better man than that.  Yes, that was snarky, but how else am I supposed to interpret your words except as meaning, "If I were a God, I wouldn't want mere mortals to grow and progress to become like The Great Me."  And if you personally don't feel that way, then why would you assume that God (or a God, or your imagined First God) would feel that way?

How many planets can you create without mankind before it gets old?  How many stars can you explode before it's not amusing any more?  How many times with how many dogs can you play fetch before you want something more challenging?  What could be more challenging or more interesting or more variable or more rewarding than bringing sentient, intelligent, independent beings with as much capacity as you yourself have as far along the path to completeness as they are willing to come?

We don't see the smartest of humans abandoning their peers to hang out with dolts.  They look for others who are as smart as they, in the same areas, and in different areas, so that their minds might be challenged and expanded, so that they might be understood as well as gain understanding.  (Warning: Brutal truth inbound:)

Quote

The substance of thought is knowledge. “The human brain depends for its normal alertness, reliability and efficiency on a continuous flow of information about the world; . . . the brain craves for information as the body craves for food.”13 “What is true of individuals is also true of societies; they too can become insane without sufficient stimulus.”14 If the mind is denied functioning to capacity, it will take terrible revenge. The penalty we pay for starving our minds is a phenomenon that is only too conspicuous at Brigham Young University. Aristotle pointed out long ago that a shortage of knowledge is an intolerable state, and so the mind will do anything to escape it; in particular, it will invent knowledge if it has to. Experimenters have found that lack of information quickly breeds insecurity in a situation where any information is regarded as better than none.15 In that atmosphere, false information flourishes; and subjects in tests are “eager to listen to and believe any sort of preposterous nonsense.”16 Why so? We repeat, because the very nature of man requires him to use his mind to capacity: “The mind or the intelligence which man possesses,” says Joseph Smith, “is co-equal with God himself.” What greater crime than the minimizing of such capacity? The Prophet continues, “All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement. . . . God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge.”17 Expansion is the theme, and we cannot expand the boundaries unless we first reach those boundaries, which means exerting ourselves to the absolute limit.

Approaching Zion, chapter 3: Zeal Without Knowledge, by Hugh Nibley

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12 hours ago, Ken S. said:

Supposedly God was once a man in flesh and bone.  So at one time, a God had to create him. But then that God must have been a man at one time then right? Where did he come from? Another God who was once a man also? Somewhere along the line, there had to be a first God. One that wasnt a man ever.  I mean this cant be the Chicken or the egg thing here. There is just no way man has always been around and has no beginning. There is no way man became God first. Logically it had to be a God who was not a man and created the first man.  If that is true, and there was one God who was first among all and he created man, why would he then allow man to ascend to become a God like him? Why would he want others to be his equal? That doesnt seemt o fit with me either.  So there had to be a first God, and I cant see the first God deciding to let simple men that he created to become his equal. So only two possibilities seem to fit here.

1) There is still one True God above all others.

2) I saw someone post the idea that evolution actually did take place, and life forms evolved by accident and became the first men and one of them became the first God. But evolution doesnt fit either IMO, because it has never been observed for any non-living form to become a living form. Never have we observed any non-intelligent non-self aware life form to develop into an intelligent life form. And if evolution happened then where did the entire universe come from? The big bang theory is all but proven now, but they dont have any answer for where that first matter form that exploded or imploded or whatever came from. Science has proven one thing. All energy and matter changes from one form to another, but something cannot come from nothing. Not through science. So there had to be a God who created that first particle that created the big bang that evolved into a universe and developed life and became man for man to become Gods.

So basically, we are back to one initial God before all others.... who created man through evolution.... and let that man ascend to be his equal..... it just doesnt seem logical to me.

Can you see my problem with this?  I just cant seem to get it to add up.No matter how I try to look at it, logically it goes back to one God who had to be first and being of no beginning to him as he was always here.

Now one might say they dont believe there can be something that never had a beginning, but if you can believe in an eternity with no end, then cant you have an eternity with no beginning? But if you had a beginning, then logically dont you have to have an end too?  Again, it just doesnt seem to add up for me.

1) You use the word “logically” a few times in your question to disprove the idea of multiple generations of gods. That is your problem. Our ways are not gods ways. He comprehends all and we only comprehend a small fraction of that.

- Alma 26:35 “my joy is carried away, even unto boasting in my God; for he has all power, all wisdom, and all understanding; he comprehendeth all things”

- Isaiah 55:8-9 “8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

- D+C 93:36 “The glory of God is intelligence”

The eternal glory we will receive cannot be comprehended by our little minds.

 

Other things that don’t logically make sense:

- eternal damnation

- splitting the red sea

- healing an ear that has been cut off by simply touching it

- walking on water

 

2) The definition of eternity is to have no beginning or end

 

Edited by Fether

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17 minutes ago, Fether said:

Other things that don’t logically make sense:

- eternal damnation

- splitting the red sea

- healing an ear that has been cut off by simply touching it

- walking on water

Actually, I do believe these make logical sense, it's just that we may or may not have sufficient knowledge to understand the logic.

What makes no logical sense is to believe that eternity past exists and yet believe that there was a "First" anything.  If there is a First, there is a beginning.  If some being existed prior to all the rest of us, then there was a prior - we had a beginning.  If First created us, then what did First use to create us?  A substance which already existed?  Did it exist before First?  Did First create it from nothing?

While our minds cannot comprehend no beginning, nor can they reconcile the existence of a beginning - it creates logical problems out the ying yang.  If there was a beginning, what caused it?  Where did everything come from?  What happened before the beginning?  If there is a boundary, what's on the other side of it?  There simply cannot be a beginning.  And yet, if there was no beginning, what have I been doing all this while!? :eek:

Eternity past is perfectly logical, even though we do not comprehend it at present.

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2 minutes ago, zil said:

Actually, I do believe these make logical sense, it's just that we may or may not have sufficient knowledge to understand the logic.

What makes no logical sense is to believe that eternity past exists and yet believe that there was a "First" anything.  If there is a First, there is a beginning.  If some being existed prior to all the rest of us, then there was a prior - we had a beginning.  If First created us, then what did First use to create us?  A substance which already existed?  Did it exist before First?  Did First create it from nothing?

While our minds cannot comprehend no beginning, nor can they reconcile the existence of a beginning - it creates logical problems out the ying yang.  If there was a beginning, what caused it?  Where did everything come from?  What happened before the beginning?  If there is a boundary, what's on the other side of it?  There simply cannot be a beginning.  And yet, if there was no beginning, what have I been doing all this while!? :eek:

Eternity past is perfectly logical, even though we do not comprehend it at present.

To believe all those things requires faith. Man cannot walk on water, nor can we split a sea. I believe with all my heart that natural laws are being obeyed in some way, but without faith in Christ, we can’t possibly believe that a man did these things. We must first have faith in Christ. The same is said about the idea of there being no beginning of gods. We just have to believe it is logical to a higher being.

Believing both Peter walking on water and there being no beginning to gods requires the same faith.

I like your comment on our inability to fathom a beginning or no beginning. One doesn’t makes sense while the other can’t make sense.

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12 hours ago, Ken S. said:

Supposedly God was once a man in flesh and bone.  So at one time, a God had to create him. But then that God must have been a man at one time then right? Where did he come from? Another God who was once a man also? Somewhere along the line, there had to be a first God. One that wasnt a man ever.  I mean this cant be the Chicken or the egg thing here. There is just no way man has always been around and has no beginning. There is no way man became God first. Logically it had to be a God who was not a man and created the first man.  If that is true, and there was one God who was first among all and he created man, why would he then allow man to ascend to become a God like him? Why would he want others to be his equal? That doesnt seemt o fit with me either.  So there had to be a first God, and I cant see the first God deciding to let simple men that he created to become his equal. So only two possibilities seem to fit here.

1) There is still one True God above all others.

2) I saw someone post the idea that evolution actually did take place, and life forms evolved by accident and became the first men and one of them became the first God. But evolution doesnt fit either IMO, because it has never been observed for any non-living form to become a living form. Never have we observed any non-intelligent non-self aware life form to develop into an intelligent life form. And if evolution happened then where did the entire universe come from? The big bang theory is all but proven now, but they dont have any answer for where that first matter form that exploded or imploded or whatever came from. Science has proven one thing. All energy and matter changes from one form to another, but something cannot come from nothing. Not through science. So there had to be a God who created that first particle that created the big bang that evolved into a universe and developed life and became man for man to become Gods.

So basically, we are back to one initial God before all others.... who created man through evolution.... and let that man ascend to be his equal..... it just doesnt seem logical to me.

Can you see my problem with this?  I just cant seem to get it to add up.No matter how I try to look at it, logically it goes back to one God who had to be first and being of no beginning to him as he was always here.

Now one might say they dont believe there can be something that never had a beginning, but if you can believe in an eternity with no end, then cant you have an eternity with no beginning? But if you had a beginning, then logically dont you have to have an end too?  Again, it just doesnt seem to add up for me.

Call the missionaries. They can help with this one.

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30 minutes ago, Fether said:

To believe all those things requires faith. Man cannot walk on water, nor can we split a sea. I believe with all my heart that natural laws are being obeyed in some way, but without faith in Christ, we can’t possibly believe that a man did these things. We must first have faith in Christ. The same is said about the idea of there being no beginning of gods. We just have to believe it is logical to a higher being.

Believing both Peter walking on water and there being no beginning to gods requires the same faith.

I like your comment on our inability to fathom a beginning or no beginning. One doesn’t makes sense while the other can’t make sense.

IMO, the need for faith does not destroy logic.  When I take everything I have learned about the gospel (from Genesis 1 through Article of Faith 13, and all the GC talks, and lessons, and whatnot that have gone into teaching me what I know of the gospel, add to it the witness of the Holy Ghost) there is nothing which is more logically sound, rational, and internally consistent.  Everything else I know and experience is iffy and on a foundation of "as best we can tell, but it may change any next second".

I know lots of people don't see it that way, but to me, the integrity1 of the gospel makes it the most logical thing I know.

1Not talking about the "honesty" definition here, but more like: data integrity, relational integrity, referential integrity, internal consistency; "the state of being whole and undivided", "the condition of being unified, unimpaired, or sound in construction".

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38 minutes ago, zil said:

IMO, the need for faith does not destroy logic.  When I take everything I have learned about the gospel (from Genesis 1 through Article of Faith 13, and all the GC talks, and lessons, and whatnot that have gone into teaching me what I know of the gospel, add to it the witness of the Holy Ghost) there is nothing which is more logically sound, rational, and internally consistent.  Everything else I know and experience is iffy and on a foundation of "as best we can tell, but it may change any next second".

I know lots of people don't see it that way, but to me, the integrity1 of the gospel makes it the most logical thing I know.

1Not talking about the "honesty" definition here, but more like: data integrity, relational integrity, referential integrity, internal consistency; "the state of being whole and undivided", "the condition of being unified, unimpaired, or sound in construction".

I agree completely! I was defining My use of the word “logic” as being within the realm of reason of a person that knows nothing of God. Man can’t want walk on water no matter what (according to a man that knows nothing of God). There NEEDS to be a first parents for all creation (according to the man that knows nothing of God).

Faith in God has to exist before one can logically see how it all works.

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"I Cant Wrap My Head Around Men Becoming Gods"

Me either.  I stopped trying long ago.  Just don't think about it much.  I watch people speculate, and opine, and forecast, and justify, and defend, and dig-in, and attack, and judge.  Not for me, thanks.

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13 hours ago, Ken S. said:

Supposedly God was once a man in flesh and bone.  So at one time, a God had to create him. But then that God must have been a man at one time then right? Where did he come from? Another God who was once a man also? Somewhere along the line, there had to be a first God. One that wasnt a man ever.  I mean this cant be the Chicken or the egg thing here. There is just no way man has always been around and has no beginning. There is no way man became God first. Logically it had to be a God who was not a man and created the first man.  If that is true, and there was one God who was first among all and he created man, why would he then allow man to ascend to become a God like him? Why would he want others to be his equal? That doesnt seemt o fit with me either.  So there had to be a first God, and I cant see the first God deciding to let simple men that he created to become his equal. So only two possibilities seem to fit here.

1) There is still one True God above all others.

2) I saw someone post the idea that evolution actually did take place, and life forms evolved by accident and became the first men and one of them became the first God. But evolution doesnt fit either IMO, because it has never been observed for any non-living form to become a living form. Never have we observed any non-intelligent non-self aware life form to develop into an intelligent life form. And if evolution happened then where did the entire universe come from? The big bang theory is all but proven now, but they dont have any answer for where that first matter form that exploded or imploded or whatever came from. Science has proven one thing. All energy and matter changes from one form to another, but something cannot come from nothing. Not through science. So there had to be a God who created that first particle that created the big bang that evolved into a universe and developed life and became man for man to become Gods.

So basically, we are back to one initial God before all others.... who created man through evolution.... and let that man ascend to be his equal..... it just doesnt seem logical to me.

Can you see my problem with this?  I just cant seem to get it to add up.No matter how I try to look at it, logically it goes back to one God who had to be first and being of no beginning to him as he was always here.

Now one might say they dont believe there can be something that never had a beginning, but if you can believe in an eternity with no end, then cant you have an eternity with no beginning? But if you had a beginning, then logically dont you have to have an end too?  Again, it just doesnt seem to add up for me.

 

I am not sure where you get your ideas from or how you validate them but, if you will, let me explain some simple facts in reality for you.  I am going to assume that you are a Christian.  Also from your post I am going to assume that you have very little scientific background.

If you believe in Jesus Christ – I will purport that Jesus is the only empirical example of a G-d that mankind has ever had.  That any other examples are somewhat removed and exist in speculations and imaginations.  The only empirical example of a G-d is Jesus Christ.  Can you follow this very simple logic?  Is this too complicated for you – too difficult for you to wrap your head around?

Since Jesus is the example of G-d we have empirical proof that G-d was once a man.  This is very important logical fact that all Christians must understand as a critical element on the path designated by Christ when he said, “I am the way”.  Thus, we know the way of G-d is to be a man.  After Jesus was resurrected he ascended into heaven as a G-d.  The promise of scripture is the man will become a “joint heir” with Jesus Christ to be resurrected and ascend into heaven just as Jesus did – meaning as a g-d.

The doctrine to deny that man can ascend into heaven as a joint heir with Christ is anti-Christ and is evidence that the anti-Christ doctrine is perpetrated by false teachers of our day and age.

 

The Traveler

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PS: Welcome, @Ken S.!  I hope you'll come back and talk with us some more about this incomprehensible thing. :)

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18 hours ago, Ken S. said:

Supposedly God was once a man in flesh and bone.  So at one time, a God had to create him. But then that God must have been a man at one time then right? Where did he come from? Another God who was once a man also? Somewhere along the line, there had to be a first God. One that wasnt a man ever.  I mean this cant be the Chicken or the egg thing here. There is just no way man has always been around and has no beginning. There is no way man became God first. Logically it had to be a God who was not a man and created the first man.  If that is true, and there was one God who was first among all and he created man, why would he then allow man to ascend to become a God like him? Why would he want others to be his equal? That doesnt seemt o fit with me either.  So there had to be a first God, and I cant see the first God deciding to let simple men that he created to become his equal. So only two possibilities seem to fit here.

1) There is still one True God above all others.

2) I saw someone post the idea that evolution actually did take place, and life forms evolved by accident and became the first men and one of them became the first God. But evolution doesnt fit either IMO, because it has never been observed for any non-living form to become a living form. Never have we observed any non-intelligent non-self aware life form to develop into an intelligent life form. And if evolution happened then where did the entire universe come from? The big bang theory is all but proven now, but they dont have any answer for where that first matter form that exploded or imploded or whatever came from. Science has proven one thing. All energy and matter changes from one form to another, but something cannot come from nothing. Not through science. So there had to be a God who created that first particle that created the big bang that evolved into a universe and developed life and became man for man to become Gods.

So basically, we are back to one initial God before all others.... who created man through evolution.... and let that man ascend to be his equal..... it just doesnt seem logical to me.

Can you see my problem with this?  I just cant seem to get it to add up.No matter how I try to look at it, logically it goes back to one God who had to be first and being of no beginning to him as he was always here.

Now one might say they dont believe there can be something that never had a beginning, but if you can believe in an eternity with no end, then cant you have an eternity with no beginning? But if you had a beginning, then logically dont you have to have an end too?  Again, it just doesnt seem to add up for me.

Welcome.   As others mentioned, eternity goes in both directions.  

I too had trouble with this.  Through prayer and study, it sorted itself out.  I'm sure it will for you as well.  

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@Ken S.I think one of the best explanations of God’s and eternity is the King Follett sermon given by Joseph Smith. Although it is not scripture, I believe it is doctrine. 

http://mldb.byu.edu/follett.htm

Here is an excerpt explaining the nature of eternity. 

 

Is it logic to say that a spirit is immortal and yet has a beginning? Because if a spirit has a beginning, it will have an end. That is good logic. I want to reason further on the spirit of man, for I am dwelling on the spirit and body of man--on the subject of the dead. I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man, the immortal spirit, because it has no beginning. Suppose I cut it in two; as the Lord lives, because it has a beginning, it would have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation who say that man had a beginning prove that he must have an end. If that were so, the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the house tops that God never did have power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself. Intelligence exists upon a self-existent principle; it is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it. Moreover, all the spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible to enlargement.

The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God found himself in the midst of spirits and glory, and because he was greater, he saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have the privilege of advancing like himself--that they might have one glory upon another and all the knowledge, power, and glory necessary to save the world of spirits. I know that when I tell you these words of eternal life that are given to me, you taste them, and I know you believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also taste the spirit of eternal life; I know it is good. And when I tell you of these things that were given me by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and I rejoice more and more.

Edited by BJ64

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On 5/8/2018 at 9:43 PM, Ken S. said:

why would he then allow man to ascend to become a God like him? Why would he want others to be his equal?

I think the answer is because our glory adds to his glory.  It is pyramid scheme....except that it is built on righteous principles and all are elevated up.

To me this is one of the most amazing things about the gospel:  that God yearns to share his glory with us.  That he condescends to lift us to his level...which in turn elevates Him even higher.  The gospel is 100% win-win.

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This is one of those doctrinal issues that I have had to just ignore. I have also had the logical connumdrum you mentioned a god who created a man who became a god, etc.  

From my background as an evangelical this doctrine, which I don’t know if I agree with, seems implausible, and since it doesn’t affect me directly, I ignore it.  

What does affect me is the doctrine of eternal progression. I think it is a comfort to know that when we step beyond the veil that we don’t stay in the state we were when we left this life.  

“We shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is.” 1John 3:2

“Is it not written that you are gods.” John 10:34

“Let us make man in our image.”  Genesis 1:26

Does this mean we will one day be gods or that we will be so far beyond our present state that in comparison we will be godlike?  I tend to think it is the latter. 

But whatever the future holds for us we are reminded by Christ to place our focus on today Matthew 6:34 where we can do what we can to make ourselves more Christlike in this present state of existence. 

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On 5/8/2018 at 8:43 PM, Ken S. said:

Supposedly God was once a man in flesh and bone.  So at one time, a God had to create him. But then that God must have been a man at one time then right? Where did he come from? Another God who was once a man also? Somewhere along the line, there had to be a first God. One that wasnt a man ever.  I mean this cant be the Chicken or the egg thing here. There is just no way man has always been around and has no beginning. There is no way man became God first. Logically it had to be a God who was not a man and created the first man.  If that is true, and there was one God who was first among all and he created man, why would he then allow man to ascend to become a God like him? Why would he want others to be his equal? That doesnt seemt o fit with me either.  So there had to be a first God, and I cant see the first God deciding to let simple men that he created to become his equal. So only two possibilities seem to fit here.

1) There is still one True God above all others.

2) I saw someone post the idea that evolution actually did take place, and life forms evolved by accident and became the first men and one of them became the first God. But evolution doesnt fit either IMO, because it has never been observed for any non-living form to become a living form. Never have we observed any non-intelligent non-self aware life form to develop into an intelligent life form. And if evolution happened then where did the entire universe come from? The big bang theory is all but proven now, but they dont have any answer for where that first matter form that exploded or imploded or whatever came from. Science has proven one thing. All energy and matter changes from one form to another, but something cannot come from nothing. Not through science. So there had to be a God who created that first particle that created the big bang that evolved into a universe and developed life and became man for man to become Gods.

So basically, we are back to one initial God before all others.... who created man through evolution.... and let that man ascend to be his equal..... it just doesnt seem logical to me.

Can you see my problem with this?  I just cant seem to get it to add up.No matter how I try to look at it, logically it goes back to one God who had to be first and being of no beginning to him as he was always here.

Now one might say they dont believe there can be something that never had a beginning, but if you can believe in an eternity with no end, then cant you have an eternity with no beginning? But if you had a beginning, then logically dont you have to have an end too?  Again, it just doesnt seem to add up for me.

I think understanding the nature of God first would help you understand the answers to many of these questions.  God finds His happiness and glory in the success of others, He obtains His glory when His children achieve immortality and Eternal Life. That glory is centered in love, just like when I am happy when my own child gets an A in class as opposed to some other child half-way around the world gets an A in class.  The glory of God, in other words is based in vicarious experience.  Jesus Christ demonstrated that power in the Garden of Gethsemane when He could experience all the suffering of the world before and after that time.  Shared experience is God's glory.  If one understands it that way then one can appreciate the need and desire to share everyone's experience.  This is why the greatest commandment is to love God but also to love our neighbor as our self.  If we learn to do that, then we can qualify ourselves for Eternal happiness as we would enjoy all the successes before us and after us and around us as if it was our very own, thus becoming one with eternity. If we could take on vicarious experience as Christ did and showed is possible, then one would not feel that anything that happened before their time was something separate from their self, they would call it one thing, as there is only one God.  The only way to have many different types of something is when it is not whole or complete but 100% of something is unchanging and looks exactly like another 100% and so there is only one of it.  

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You are not an engineer are you?  I am and have had the exact same discussion with myself.

I don't have the answers.  What I do believe is that for us there is just one God that matters... God the father.

Where did the matter of the universe come from?  Did God create it?  Or just organize it?

Who created the place God is from?  Yup...  you are not alone with those questions.

What if God didn't even know where it all began...

Science has an explanation back to a big bang,  but really has nothing before that.

Although it is interesting to contemplate about, it is essentially a fruitless exercise.  Need to be concerned about the here and now.

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37 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

You are not an engineer are you?  I am and have had the exact same discussion with myself.

I don't have the answers.  What I do believe is that for us there is just one God that matters... God the father.

Where did the matter of the universe come from?  Did God create it?  Or just organize it?

Who created the place God is from?  Yup...  you are not alone with those questions.

What if God didn't even know where it all began...

Science has an explanation back to a big bang,  but really has nothing before that.

Although it is interesting to contemplate about, it is essentially a fruitless exercise.  Need to be concerned about the here and now.

@Ken S.has not responded since starting the thread - I am inclined to think he has no intension to engage in this discussion - likely a troll.

 

The Traveler

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