I Cant Wrap My Head Around Men Becoming Gods


Ken S.
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2 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Your guess is wrong, as is your recollection.  I’ll likely leave it at that.  

If you would like, I'll answer your questions.  First, what beliefs do you believe I have that are not in line with the church's teachings?

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57 minutes ago, zil said:

Then any remaining "loyalists" depart because it's not worth the battle any more, and the one and only forum which had a tone of completely supporting the Church is gone.

@Grunt,

Obviously, you should always do what is best for you and your journey with Christ, but I agree with @zil's perspective on this.  Not sure if you have seen some of the other 'LDS' forums out there, but many that I have found are full of quasi-anti posters and people from apostate groups.

I will say something to a bit of the comical note.  I think @Rob Osborn is probably a member of like every single forum out there!  I see his posts with the same 'Rob Osborn' tag seemingly everywhere going back many years, haha!  :lol:

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1 hour ago, Lost Boy said:

I have never challenged someones belief in the church like you did to me.  I don't recall putting anyone down.  Now I did question some very questionable science and find it bizarre when people make up science to fit something they can't jive with reality.  I don't know if the flood happened or not.  I have respect for those that can believe it.  I just don't understand why people make stuff up to help them believe.  My guess is that pointing out inconsistencies is not what people want to hear.

I know exactly how you feel. I haven’t been here long but it’s easy to see that there are a handful of people, who I could name but won’t, who rule the forum. If you say anything they disagree with they start throwing insults. 

I’ve been asked if I’ve been excommunicated, asked if I’m really a member, told that I should be released from my stake calling, told I should have my temple recommend revoked, told that I have poor reading compression skills, told that I don’t have good communication skills etc.

It seems that the more you have to back up your opinions the worse the attacks become. I guess that these people who have to be right all of the time sink to personal attacks when they can’t prove you wrong otherwise, questioning your integrity, your testimony, your faith, your morality and your membership. 

When someone states an opinion it is just that, an opinion. When there are two opposing opinions either or neither may be right. However these of whom I speak have to make sure that you know that their opinion is correct and that you are stupid for having your opinion. 

In my view the forum would be better off without them but such as it is I will do my best to simply ignore them. 

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19 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

I know exactly how you feel. I haven’t been here long but it’s easy to see that there are a handful of people, who I could name but won’t, who rule the forum. If you say anything they disagree with they start throwing insults. 

I’ve been asked if I’ve been excommunicated, asked if I’m really a member, told that I should be released from my stake calling, told I should have my temple recommend revoked, told that I have poor reading compression skills, told that I don’t have good communication skills etc.

It seems that the more you have to back up your opinions the worse the attacks become. I guess that these people who have to be right all of the time sink to personal attacks when they can’t prove you wrong otherwise, questioning your integrity, your testimony, your faith, your morality and your membership. 

When someone states an opinion it is just that, an opinion. When there are two opposing opinions either or neither may be right. However these of whom I speak have to make sure that you know that their opinion is correct and that you are stupid for having your opinion. 

In my view the forum would be better off without them but such as it is I will do my best to simply ignore them. 

Wow, that is pretty hard core.  Why would someone do that?  I would be ashamed to have someone like that as a friend or a spouse.  You don't question someones faith/testimony, etc.

 

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38 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

I know exactly how you feel. I haven’t been here long but it’s easy to see that there are a handful of people, who I could name but won’t, who rule the forum. 

You’ll be pleased to know there are limits to the powers of these rulers.  I’ve been asking @pam for @MormonGator‘s head in a silver charger for years now; but all Incan get out of her is a lousy root beer and one of @zil‘s cheap fountain pens. ;) 

But seriously, folks—the “report” button is there for a reason.  Please use it as needed, and try to keep the personality clashes off the main forums.

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1 hour ago, person0 said:

@Grunt,

Obviously, you should always do what is best for you and your journey with Christ, but I agree with @zil's perspective on this.  Not sure if you have seen some of the other 'LDS' forums out there, but many that I have found are full of quasi-anti posters and people from apostate groups.

I will say something to a bit of the comical note.  I think @Rob Osborn is probably a member of like every single forum out there!  I see his posts with the same 'Rob Osborn' tag seemingly everywhere going back many years, haha!  :lol:

I will say this- this is one of the only forums left that allows my traditional conservative beliefs. I've been kicked off too many to count for being too conservative.

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16 hours ago, Grunt said:

Meh.  I appreciate the compliment but don't necessarily agree.  You have a great crew here.  I've just been jaded with the site's content and posters lately.  I don't know if it's just me getting bothered by people/things unnecessarily, or if the rest of you are just much better people than I am and look past it.  It just seems like lately there has been a TON of energy from a few posters that goes into disproving the teachings of the church, insulting some very smart members, and just general opinions that belong on an anti page.  It doesn't do much for my own spiritual growth.

Besides, I'll save money on fountain pens.

I've seen it.  That's why I've been doing my best to start other topics that are much more worth our time discussing, like the benefits of playing D&D with our kids :) .

I really have been doing my best to start more topics.  And it's had moderate success.  I even tried taking a break for several days at a time.  But I realize why this site is so important.

Of all the sites I've been to on the bloggernacle, this is the only one where the "orthodox Mormons" are actually speaking in a forum.  There are blogs with some minor comments that are still "orthodox".  But nowhere I've seen has the quantity of folks who still believe in old fashioned Mormonism generating this volume of posts.

So, I stay so that we have a voice online -- not just in a one sided blog, but in an open forum.  I stay so that we can fight the good fight.  I stay to defend the faith.  I stay so that some who are actually searching, who are actually curious, will have a place for open discussion.  That's how you came here, isn't it?  So, now it's your turn to help those who come after.  I know, you have a long way to go.  But so do we all.

A single coal burns out.  But a campfire burns continually because new wood is always added.

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A topic like this absolutely requires an open mind, regardless of which way you lean on the questions.

We, as a human species, are only just now starting to get an inkling of just how limited our experience is, compared to the vastness and depth of the universe around us.  We know little, but are becoming aware of just how little that is.  Look at some images of the Hubble Deep Field imagery and then read an article on quantum physics.  Then watch a video or two abouth 4th dimensional geometry and if you can handle more, study up on how mathematics shows there are 11 dimensions.  When you feel dizzy at the incomprehensible depth of what lays beyond mortal human experince, ask yourself again just what makes any person such an expert on the Universe that they think they can creditably argue anything about the nature of God beyond what He tells us through Scripture, the Prophets and prayer.

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2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I've seen it.  That's why I've been doing my best to start other topics that are much more worth our time discussing, like the benefits of playing D&D with our kids :) .

I really have been doing my best to start more topics.  And it's had moderate success.  I even tried taking a break for several days at a time.  But I realize why this site is so important.

Of all the sites I've been to on the bloggernacle, this is the only one where the "orthodox Mormons" are actually speaking in a forum.  There are blogs with some minor comments that are still "orthodox".  But nowhere I've seen has the quantity of folks who still believe in old fashioned Mormonism generating this volume of posts.

So, I stay so that we have a voice online -- not just in a one sided blog, but in an open forum.  I stay so that we can fight the good fight.  I stay to defend the faith.  I stay so that some who are actually searching, who are actually curious, will have a place for open discussion.  That's how you came here, isn't it?  So, now it's your turn to help those who come after.  I know, you have a long way to go.  But so do we all.

A single coal burns out.  But a campfire burns continually because new wood is always added.

I have no idea what orthodox mormonism is.  let alone old fashion mormon.

I mean, I remember growing up in the 70's learning in church why blacks couldn't hold the priesthood...  That they were cursed and inferior, etc...  Or I would hear all sorts of very mean comments towards gay people..   And then there were very sexist comments towards women...  

I am not sure I want any part of that.

Perhaps you don't want to face the possibility that the scriptures may be wrong on certain details such as the origin of man and the Universe.  Or perhaps your interpretation of the scriptures may be wrong.

The Catholic church persecuted many scientists for their work as it was viewed to be a heresy.   They have since softened their position on science significantly.  I think the LDS church, too has softened its position on certain things and for the better.

I know that there are some that disagree with my view on there not being a literal global flood nor a creation that lasted 6 days.  I suspect that there are probably more than one general authority that has similar views.  I personally think it is time to stop ignoring the elephant in the room.  Some here think I deny the power of God.  I do not in the least.  I do propose that parts of the scriptures may be a lot more allegorical than some want to believe, but I believe it was through the power of God the universe was created.

Nor do I believe God gives us proof of his existence.  He gives us evidence and personal revelation of his existence.  and on a personal level, I think you can view it as proof, but it is not proof to anyone else...  only to those the holy ghost revels these things to.

I see God as a being who sees the end from the beginning.  He knows when we will need miracles long before we ever do and through what can be viewed as naturally means performs most miracles.  This is far from denying his power.  It attests to his great intelligent and wisdom.  If he had to come in a "poof" something to fix a problem, that would to me mean that he did not have the foresight to see the need for the miracle.  But as he knows the end from the beginning, he doesn't need to "poof" most miracles.  He's already had the miracle in the works.  

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3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

 

Of all the sites I've been to on the bloggernacle, this is the only one where the "orthodox Mormons" are actually speaking in a forum.  There are blogs with some minor comments that are still "orthodox".  But nowhere I've seen has the quantity of folks who still believe in old fashioned Mormonism generating this volume of posts.

I believe that the purpose for the gospel topic essays on topics such as race and the priesthood, plural marriage, and violence is in part to put to rest some of the old fashioned orthodox Mormonism. 

 

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26 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

I believe that the purpose for the gospel topic essays on topics such as race and the priesthood, plural marriage, and violence is in part to put to rest some of the old fashioned orthodox Mormonism. 

 

I don’t want to speak for him, but I think you don’t have the same understanding of the term.  

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1 minute ago, Grunt said:

I don’t want to speak for him, but I think you don’t have the same understanding of the term.  

Yeah does not seem likely.  Member of the LDS church are still part of a larger Culture.  If the Larger Cultural is Racist and Sexist then many of the membership of the LDS church will reflect such.  As the larger Culture changes (for good or bad) many of the members will change with it.  (again for good or bad).  While prior cultural might be Old Fashioned... It is not really Orthodox or Mormon 

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1 hour ago, Lost Boy said:

I have no idea what orthodox mormonism is.  let alone old fashion mormon.

Orthodox Mormon was a new term to me as well.  But people come to this board and say that they heard that they needed to come to this site to hear "Orthodox Mormon" thought.  I'm not exactly sure what the definition is either.  But when I go to other sites and hear the whacked out theories and outright rebellious doctrines they tout there (in great majorities) I get the flavor of what heterodox Mormon means.

Here, most people will believe the more mainstream ideas that are currently taught in the faith from the top down.  Yes, some old things are done away.  New things come. (9th Article of faith).  But the changes come by prophecy (5th AoF) not by individual mandate.

When the Church as an organization teaches unequivocally that homosexuality is a sin and people are rising up saying it's not -- that is not what I'd call staying true to the faith.

When the Church as an organization teaches unequivocally that the Constitution is a divinely inspired document, and people say it is an obsolete document that has caused all of our nations problems, that is not what I'd call staying true to the faith.

When Mormons claim that they are faithful and sustain their leaders in one breath and then in the next breath say that the prophets need to be replaced by some Harvard graduates who know more about the way the "real world works" -- this shows some sort of cognitive disconnect or outright deception.

When Mormons  preach that we no longer need prophets....  Well... that should be obvious.

When Mormons claim that entire books of scripture which are considered canon by the Church as a whole should actually be ignored because they are outdated -- this is not being true to the faith.

When Mormons claim that the Book of Mormon is not a real book of scripture and that Joseph Smith never had a vision, but the Church is just a "nice place to raise children" this is not a person who is faithful to the revelations of God, but to the very mortal and earthly responsibility of raising their children to be good citizens of their nation rather than the celestial calling of raising their children to the Lord.

So, how do such individuals still consider themselves Mormons?  Well, they haven't committed anything that would be deemed apostasy.  They haven't asked to have their name taken off the rolls.  They haven't committed any sins worthy of excommunication.  So, they're still on the books of the Church.  But are their names still in the Lamb's Book of Life?

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1 hour ago, BJ64 said:

I believe that the purpose for the gospel topic essays on topics such as race and the priesthood, plural marriage, and violence is in part to put to rest some of the old fashioned orthodox Mormonism. 

 

Read my post to Lost Boy.  It isn't about small issues or issues that can or will change.  Or even that which is subject to interpretation.  These are all things we can have discussions about and eventually agree to disagree. 

But when a person raises an issue that is currently defined as apostasy and decides it is a good thing, that is where red flags go up.

It is over those items where there isn't really room for a tremendous amount of interpretation that I wonder how on earth they interepreted some things and still believe in the faith.

In my experience a large portion of such people tend to be on their way out the door or are already out the door.

However, as I said to Lost Boy, if they're still doing what they're supposed to be doing, then I guess, they're still Mormons.  So, what does it matter what I think?

Now, all this is completely different from people with simple misconceptions or misunderstandings.  That's not an attitude or faith thing, but a learning thing.  And we're all learning.  I may completely disagree with Rob Osborn on many things.  But I chalk it up to misunderstanding rather than lack of faith.  So, I agree to disagree.

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10 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Orthodox Mormon was a new term to me as well.  But people come to this board and say that they heard that they needed to come to this site to hear "Orthodox Mormon" thought.  I'm not exactly sure what the definition is either.  But when I go to other sites and hear the whacked out theories and outright rebellious doctrines they tout there (in great majorities) I get the flavor of what heterodox Mormon means.

Here, most people will believe the more mainstream ideas that are currently taught in the faith from the top down.  Yes, some old things are done away.  New things come. (9th Article of faith).  But the changes come by prophecy (5th AoF) not by individual mandate.

When the Church as an organization teaches unequivocally that homosexuality is a sin and people are rising up saying it's not -- that is not what I'd call staying true to the faith.

When the Church as an organization teaches unequivocally that the Constitution is a divinely inspired document, and people say it is an obsolete document that has caused all of our nations problems, that is not what I'd call staying true to the faith.

When Mormons claim that they are faithful and sustain their leaders in one breath and then in the next breath say that the prophets need to be replaced by some Harvard graduates who know more about the way the "real world works" -- this shows some sort of cognitive disconnect or outright deception.

When Mormons  preach that we no longer need prophets....  Well... that should be obvious.

When Mormons claim that entire books of scripture which are considered canon by the Church as a whole should actually be ignored because they are outdated -- this is not being true to the faith.

When Mormons claim that the Book of Mormon is not a real book of scripture and that Joseph Smith never had a vision, but the Church is just a "nice place to raise children" this is not a person who is faithful to the revelations of God, but to the very mortal and earthly responsibility of raising their children to be good citizens of their nation rather than the celestial calling of raising their children to the Lord.

So, how do such individuals still consider themselves Mormons?  Well, they haven't committed anything that would be deemed apostasy.  They haven't asked to have their name taken off the roles.  They haven't committed any sins worthy of excommunication.  So, they're still on the books of the Church.  But are their names still in the Lamb's Book of Life?

I guess I haven't been here long enough to see most of this.  I agree with your list.  I mean I do have issue with the creation story and the flood story, but I think many member do as well.   

But also consider this.  The Lord has asked us to love our neighbor.  Not all of us are going to be on the same place on the straight and narrow.  Some may be off the straight and narrow.  You don't love them any less.  You don't shun them.  You love them and continue on the path.  You may also learn that you, yourself, may be wrong.  I know I have changed in many ways over the years.  I hope for the better.  

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11 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Read my post to Lost Boy.  It isn't about small issues or issues that can or will change.  Or even that which is subject to interpretation.  These are all things we can have discussions about and eventually agree to disagree. 

But when a person raises an issue that is currently defined as apostasy and decides it is a good thing, that is where red flags go up.

It is over those items where there isn't really room for a tremendous amount of interpretation that I wonder how on earth they interepreted some things and still believe in the faith.

In my experience a large portion of such people tend to be on their way out the door or are already out the door.

However, as I said to Lost Boy, if they're still doing what they're supposed to be doing, then I guess, they're still Mormons.  So, what does it matter what I think?

Now, all this is completely different from people with simple misconceptions or misunderstandings.  That's not an attitude or faith thing, but a learning thing.  And we're all learning.  I may completely disagree with Rob Osborn on many things.  But I chalk it up to misunderstanding rather than lack of faith.  So, I agree to disagree.

Such as same-sex marriage, masturbation, and immodesty are fine.  

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1 minute ago, Lost Boy said:

I guess I haven't been here long enough to see most of this.  I agree with your list.  I mean I do have issue with the creation story and the flood story, but I think many member do as well.

Well, I stated it before.  But I have no problem with someone's position on the flood or the ark.  There is certainly a lot that is unknown.  And it isn't like such knowledge is really all that critical to our salvation.  I haven't had a problem with your overall position.  But sometimes, whether I agree or disagree, I get hung up on some logical inconsistencies.  I may be a bit harsh when pointing them out.  So, I apologize if I did that to you.

1 minute ago, Lost Boy said:

But also consider this.  The Lord has asked us to love our neighbor. 

Of course.

1 minute ago, Lost Boy said:

Not all of us are going to be on the same place on the straight and narrow.  Some may be off the straight and narrow.

Absolutely true.

1 minute ago, Lost Boy said:

You don't love them any less.  You don't shun them.  You love them and continue on the path. 

I am one of the first to admit that I have a long way to go on the trait of charity.  But I can at least say that I'm working on it.

1 minute ago, Lost Boy said:

You may also learn that you, yourself, may be wrong.  I know I have changed in many ways over the years.  I hope for the better.  

Yes, and I have had my mind change on this forum several times.  And I apologized many times when I simply had the wrong data.  Someone shows it to me, I scrutinize it and verify it.  But if it's true, it's true.  What can I say?  I was wrong.

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27 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

When Mormons claim that entire books of scripture which are considered canon by the Church as a whole should actually be ignored because they are outdated -- this is not being true to the faith.

I know this is not exactly what you meant but this reminds me how some members, including past apostles have said that the Song of Solomon is pornography and isn’t inspired and shouldn’t be in the Bible. Well, I consider it an instruction manual of how husbands and wives should love and treat each other. 

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2 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Such as same-sex marriage, masturbation, and immodesty are fine.  

I think there are still few members that support same-sex marriage.  I think small but very vocal.  I think this group will remain fairly small.

Masturbation and porn go hand in hand and that is probably a fairly large number.

Immodesty...   I don't know why they ladies like to show off the bod, but most that have bods to show and some that don't like to show more skin than less...  I don't see this going away.

But I agree with all of these that they are a problem.

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3 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

I know this is not exactly what you meant but this reminds me how some members, including past apostles have said that the Song of Solomon is pornography and isn’t inspired and shouldn’t be in the Bible. Well, I consider it an instruction manual of how husbands and wives should love and treat each other. 

I was thinking about the Song when I worded my post as I did.  I honestly don't know what the "official" position of the Church is on the Song.  But the note in our scriptures state that Joseph Smith stated that that particular book was not considered inspired.  That could simply mean that it is as you said it, but it was simply a man's opinion or commentary rather than revelation.

Or it could mean "DON'T READ IT. IT'S EVIL."  I honestly don't know.

An evangelical friend of mine claimed it was really a metaphor for the love of Christ to his Bride (the Church).  I had a hard time believing that.  But I really didn't want to get into an argument about it.  He was one of the nicest guys I've ever met.

What I was referring to was that some people say that the PoGP is not really scripture.  Some say that the D&C was just made up or that the Book of Mormon was never taken to be a real account of the Nephites, but a completely allegorical work.

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7 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

Masturbation and porn go hand in hand and that is probably a fairly large number.

I certainly understand why people believe this.  And I've even read such on the Church website on the topic.  But I happen to know someone who... well... that's not true.  And I'd imagine that in past generations that it simply couldn't be true simply because of the lack of availability of porn.  Self-abuse is always available.

I would agree that the vast majority of the cases, it is probably true.

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