Does anyone have an answer to this haunting question?!

[Behemoth]

31 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

Did I not make it clear that any man who has an entrenched natural man mindset also has a spiritual component to his being that can be spiritually enlightened, nourished and strengthened by coming directly to God in true humility for help in time of need?

No, you probably did, and I just missed it cause I probably got too distracted by the “eternally fixed and limited” and “utterly futile” part. Sorry. I understand now. And appreciate your comments. Very much. I believed that your usage may have been overly critical of Luke’s nature, when rather you may had been refferring to the words (and their spirit) because the spirit of his actions should be given some benefit of the doubt, should they not, since we are so far from them? I never understood, that Luke believed that the others were lying about their testimonies, only that there was a gap of the usage of their words relating to the word “know”. I believe he righted his (only possibly perceived faithlessness in general members “know” testimonies) later, by saying no one is omniscient, therefore, either he has to change the meaning he gives to the word “know” or just have confusion with a majority of statements made by people. 

No, even to say: I think, therefor I am. Is a flawed statement.(by the secular “empirical” world) It is circular reasoning.... I am, therefor I think.  unless circular reasoning is ok with the eternal (spiritual) things. 🤯😮👍🏽😱🤗🤫

(He must be deeply thinking and organizing his thoughts right now. That’s why he hasn’t responded yet. Or he’s just busy working, like is common and good...;) )

 

Edited May 19, 2018 by Behemoth

[Luke]

13 hours ago, zil said:

My sole problem is that you deny that others might have experienced a reality beyond your own

I think you still misunderstand me Zil, but I think we have both tired with trying to explain to each other....anyway, all the best.

[Luke]

11 hours ago, CV75 said:

If you can trace back how it is you know you have a veil, you can project forward to know that God does not lie.

I disagree with your logic.

[Behemoth]

@luke

my comments are the best 👋🏼(Force hand)

[Luke]

10 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

those who have been spiritually enlightened by the Holy Ghost need to realize it’s utterly futile to try to persuade the natural man to believe

Jersey Boy:  Do you know with absolute certainty that God doesn't lie?  

[Luke]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

he is having trouble keeping anything straight in his mind.  He's gone all over the board.

Seems to me that you and many of the others that have posted have confused things.  Here is my question:  Do you know with absolute certainty that God does not lie?  (And when I say know meaning there is absolutely no possibility of being wrong).  If yes, please explain how you know.  

[Luke]

10 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

someone with an intractable natural man mindset

 

10 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

the natural man not only doesn’t want to be persuaded he is wrong but needs to be understand it’s everlastingly impossible to persuade the natural man

 

4 hours ago, Behemoth said:

many of us doubt your sincerity

 

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I don't know about Luke's sincerity. 

 

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

his tactics that are inconsistent with a search for a real answer.

Questioning my sincerity, talking tactics, confusing the definition of "know", making me out to be some low-life natural man....don't think this advances the conversation.

Gentlemen, my question is simple:  Do you know with absolute 100% certainty that God never lies?  If so, how?  

[Behemoth]

@Luke

It’s about the English.

“God”, means to us: omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Is that what the word “God” means to you? 

He is the truth. You can’t seperate God from the truth cause that’s not God. Buddy Luke. This is the language of the prophets. Start using it. 

I would not say “God” and “truth” in the same sentence and wonder if they are possibly separate. They aren’t. You’d have to use another word. 

Its equivalent to asking: Does 1=1 when 1=5-4 ?

I know God doesn’t lie just like I know, and am willing to bet my life on the idea, that 1+1=2. I know God doesn’t lie like I know that I exist and think. 

Satisfied?

while it’s impressive to doubt if 1 actually = 1 , there comes a point, where the doubt becomes “utterly” futile.

Luke: but couldn’t 1=1 be circular reasoning, and 1 doesn’t actually e... 

just stop.

I think your doubt is futile. So, you wonder, am I absolute. No, but I will be. And what i will, I know...

Really, if you keep this up, and you want to remain consistent, you’ll have to stop speaking English entirely. (Maybe that’s not, in Jesus’ words: straining at a nat, FOR YOU,  but I really think it will be. Though, you’ll be the judge of that). You are a half being. Like I am. Half mortal, half immortal. (Not to detract from a real demi-God, Jesus) you and I, we are co heirs with Christ.

is to know really that different then to sense? No one is omniscient here. Like you’ve admitted.

Where is your doubt, its like a shadow... oh wait, that’s what doubts are.

I admit, I’m afraid of the dark (depends on the situation). But isn’t the light also the source of the shadow? Or when I turn the light off in my room, couldn’t there be a monster there? How can I possibly be sure? A big nasty looking thing that after killing me, will also tell my Mom, that’s I broke her hair dryer today, and also that i peed around the toilet seat and didn’t clean it up!?!?!?? 

Do you see the triviality of the question and how, some could conclude after 4 pgs. Of explanations: Luke must understand, and be insincere with his intentions. Sort of like, when your child has this monster- coming-out-when-you-turn-off-the-lights-conversation with you, 

child: you can’t be %100 sure Dad! 

You might just start thinking it’s because he wants to get out of going to bed and stay up with mommy and daddy and watch the movie that he smells the popcorn for?

anyway, I’m satisfied with my answer. I hope you are to. But I won’t force you to go to bed, as if I was your father.

If you sense/know (since “know” may imply omniscience) that God tells you he loves you and always will. At some point you may feel he has lied to you when what he meant by “love”, isn’t what you believed it to mean. (E.g. maybe you believed “love” to mean candy and hot chocolate everyday of your life). We must conform to his language, rather then him to us. 

(don’t worry, although I don’t know you, I think, I am also, just like you)

Edited May 19, 2018 by Behemoth

[Jersey Boy]

On 5/17/2018 at 9:44 PM, Luke said:

You are wrong.  I believe I have felt the Spirit many times.  My question is simply how do you know that just because the Spirit makes you feel good and right about something that is is actually true and right.  I don't see the answer to my question in 2 Ne 2.  

If you had truly felt the indwelling influence of the  Spirit of God in sufficient measure, you wouldn’t be racked with such pervasive doubt. It appears you have experienced inklings of the Spirit. 

The answers you have been searching for are found in 2 Nephi 2. It appears you either haven’t taken the time reread it, or if you have reread it you haven’t comprehend Lehi’s inspired words. For your convenience, I will post Lehi’s answers to your questions here:

10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement—

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away. (2 Nephi 2)

The possibilty for boredom in the eternal world that you fear does actually exist. But the potential for boredom in the eternal world only exists because the polar opposite of boredom also exists in the eternities. In the eternal world, there is a state of mind that exists in which one chooses to be aloof, disinterested and disengage from all that life has to offer. Conversely, in the eternal world there also forever exists a state of mind one can choose in which he will find endless possibilities for anxious engagement in activities of intense intellectual, emotional and physical enjoyment. If it were not so, boredom would not exist. 

Lehi testifies to us that God promises the faithful they will obtain “a state of happiness that has no end,” but God can only make that promise because there also exists a diametric opposite to the state of happiness that has no end, even a state of endless unhappiness that will continue unless one chooses to exercise faith in Christ and repent. So if in the eternities you end up possessing a state of mind that’s cynical, doubtful and bored it will be because you chose to be that way, in spite of the fact that you could have chosen to be otherwise.

Those who choose to be cynical, bored and disengaged in the eternal world will likely end up that way because the natural man takes a grim satisfaction in being a naysayer. I suppose that in the eternities there will be those who, even there, will continue to postulate that God could very well turn out to be a liar and all those who are then presently happy will finally end up being bored out of their minds, even if it takes a trillion eternities to arrive at that place. And God will allow them to engage in their endless naysaying because Christ’s infinite and eternal atonement has given them the freedom to choose to be eternally happy or miserable, for the states of happiness and misery will forever be eternal realities. Ss there is no need to ever be bored in the eternal world because a state of mind that chooses to be unbored will always exist in eternal opposition to the state of mind in which one chooses to be bored and disengaged from the active pursuit of an interesting and meaningful existence.

 

Edited May 20, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Luke said:

Seems to me that you and many of the others that have posted have confused things.  Here is my question:  Do you know with absolute certainty that God does not lie?  (And when I say know meaning there is absolutely no possibility of being wrong).  If yes, please explain how you know.  

OK.  I'll repeat myself, for your benefit.

1) The answer to your question in bold is: Yes.  I do.
2) When you say that to "KNOW" means "absolutely no possibility of being wrong" then you're not speaking English and denying the reality of the nature of knowledge.  Did you read the part where I addressed that?  It was a long explanation, I'd rather not retype it if  you've already read it.  But if you missed it I can repeat it.  Let me know.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Luke said:

Questioning my sincerity, talking tactics, confusing the definition of "know", making me out to be some low-life natural man....don't think this advances the conversation.

I know you addressed several people in the post.  I want to state for the record that I specifically said I was NOT questioning your sincerity.  And I never made you out to be a low-life natural man.  Although we are all fallen and lost, so...

Now, I've answered two of your questions.  So, let's keep this a balanced discussion. I'm going to ask two questions of you.

1) When I commented on your tactics and confusing the definition of "know" what do you think it is I meant?  This is in an effort to ensure we're actually communicating instead of just talking past each other.  I need to make sure that the message I sent was the same as the message you received.  So, try to say what message you received and put it in your own words.
2) What did you find incorrect or objectionable about those messages I sent?

[Behemoth]

1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

potential for boredom in the eternal world only exists because the polar opposite of boredom also exists in the eternities.

Nice! 👍🏽 

[Behemoth]

On 5/17/2018 at 8:44 PM, Luke said:

You are wrong.  I believe I have felt the Spirit many times.  My question is simply how do you know that just because the Spirit makes you feel good and right about something that is is actually true and right.  I don't see the answer to my question in 2 Ne 2.  

It’s all about what we want to believe. Do we want to believe the person that says drugs & money will set us free or do we want to believe the person that says God’s spirit through living revelation and obedience will set us free? Both say they are telling the truth. Who do you WANT to believe, what do you WANT? Not: What do you know?This is our purpose and test. We aren’t ever forced to do anything. So the fact that I know there is a God and that he loves us, doesn’t actually change me until I decide I want it. In essence, I decide what “makes [me] feel good and right”, my creation or destruction. 

 

(Thinking about this has helped me with how I percieve my own doubts, and testimony. I am going to start using the word “know” at church more. )

E.g. Relativity- Do we know that the earth moves around the sun, or that the sun moves around the earth? Well.... to say that the earth moves around the sun, is true, if we have some absolute frame of reference indicating it is. As I understand, so far... there. are. none. That means that (pretending that the sun is still) the earth moves around the sun, and in our (earthly) position, where we feel still, the sun moves around us. Who’s to say they aren’t both moving around each other? If we triangulate our position enough with the celestial bodies we can approximate closer to what may be absolute reality. But since, we really don’t know whether those stars are moving or not in infinity the effort is... futile. I believe this is the case, for the purpose of us realizing: 

It is what WE make it. WE are the hangers, framers of the universe. Intelligence is the only REAL reference frame. God has the absolute reference frame, but it is withdrawn...on purpose. 

did you also know, that since we can’t actually determine an absolute frame of reference, we never determine the reality of basic forces. Magnetism, gravity, etc. you name it. We could easily be intrepretating the forces and their sources incorrectly.

But this knowledge of things is only benificial and relevant, when there is some purpose. We decide what purpose our lives will assume. And thus, the purpose we give to that around us. 

There is nothing more real, then the existence of an absolute frame of reference that is currently partially withheld. God, and spiritual exitence. 

Edited May 19, 2018 by Behemoth

[Luke]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I know you addressed several people in the post.  I want to state for the record that I specifically said I was NOT questioning your sincerity.  And I never made you out to be a low-life natural man.  Although we are all fallen and lost, so...

Now, I've answered two of your questions.  So, let's keep this a balanced discussion. I'm going to ask two questions of you.

1) When I commented on your tactics and confusing the definition of "know" what do you think it is I meant?  This is in an effort to ensure we're actually communicating instead of just talking past each other.  I need to make sure that the message I sent was the same as the message you received.  So, try to say what message you received and put it in your own words.
2) What did you find incorrect or objectionable about those messages I sent?

Hi Carborendum.  Yes, I agree that are many definitions and uses of the word know.  Now, my question is Do you know with absolute certainty (with the utmost degree of certainty that does not permit any possibility of being wrong) that God does not lie..never lies....ever?  I hope there can be no confusion now about my question or what I mean by know.

[Luke]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I know you addressed several people in the post.  I want to state for the record that I specifically said I was NOT questioning your sincerity.  And I never made you out to be a low-life natural man.  Although we are all fallen and lost, so...

Now, I've answered two of your questions.  So, let's keep this a balanced discussion. I'm going to ask two questions of you.

1) When I commented on your tactics and confusing the definition of "know" what do you think it is I meant?  This is in an effort to ensure we're actually communicating instead of just talking past each other.  I need to make sure that the message I sent was the same as the message you received.  So, try to say what message you received and put it in your own words.
2) What did you find incorrect or objectionable about those messages I sent?

Hi Carborendum.  Yes, I agree that are many definitions and uses of the word know.  Now, my question is Do you know with absolute certainty (with the utmost degree of certainty that does not permit any possibility of being wrong) that God does not lie..never lies....ever?  I hope there can be no confusion now about my question or what I mean by know.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Luke said:

Hi Carborendum.  Yes, I agree that are many definitions and uses of the word know.  Now, my question is Do you know with absolute certainty (with the utmost degree of certainty that does not permit any possibility of being wrong) that God does not lie..never lies....ever?  I hope there can be no confusion now about my question or what I mean by know.

Now, hold on a bit.  You didn't actually answer the question I asked.  You seemed to have answered a question I did not ask.  I asked you to 

1) Tell me what you think I meant?
2) What about it was incorrect or objectionable to the point where you basically called me out on it?

I appreciate a balanced discussion.  Additionally, I don't believe it's possible to actually discuss something when I ask a question and you take it a different direction.  Likewise, I wouldn't do that to you.  I'd answer your question.

So, answer my questions and I'll answer yours.  It's give and take. That's how I roll.  I hope you do too.

[Luke]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Now, hold on a bit.  You didn't actually answer the question I asked.  You seemed to have answered a question I did not ask.  I asked you to 

1) Tell me what you think I meant?
2) What about it was incorrect or objectionable to the point where you basically called me out on it?

I appreciate a balanced discussion.  Additionally, I don't believe it's possible to actually discuss something when I ask a question and you take it a different direction.  Likewise, I wouldn't do that to you.  I'd answer your question.

So, answer my questions and I'll answer yours.  It's give and take. That's how I roll.  I hope you do too.

You are confusing things and trying to take the discussion in a different direction.  Are you still confused about what I mean by the word you know?!  Seems bizarre that almost nobody can give me a direct answer

 

[Luke]

10 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Now, hold on a bit.  You didn't actually answer the question I asked.  You seemed to have answered a question I did not ask.  I asked you to 

1) Tell me what you think I meant?
2) What about it was incorrect or objectionable to the point where you basically called me out on it?

I appreciate a balanced discussion.  Additionally, I don't believe it's possible to actually discuss something when I ask a question and you take it a different direction.  Likewise, I wouldn't do that to you.  I'd answer your question.

So, answer my questions and I'll answer yours.  It's give and take. That's how I roll.  I hope you do too.

You are confusing things and trying to take the discussion in a different direction.  Are you still confused about what I mean by the word you know?!  Seems bizarre that almost nobody can give me a direct answer

 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Luke said:

You are confusing things and trying to take the discussion in a different direction.  Are you still confused about what I mean by the word you know?!  Seems bizarre that almost nobody can give me a direct answer

I understand what you mean.  But for the sake of communication, I need to find out if you understand what I mean.  And simply stating "yes or no" isn't sufficient for this issue.  That's why I asked you to tell me what you think I mean.

This isn't to take it into a different direction.  But it is necessary to answer your question.

I believe the problem might be that you expect the answer to your question to fit into a tiny box you've created.  But the truth is that the answer is in a box a little ways away.  And I am trying to point to that box to say,"Here's the answer."  My asking you to tell me what I mean is to verify that you're actually looking over here instead of that tiny box you've limited yourself to.

Why is that unreasonable?  If you think you know the answer already, then why ask the question?  If you don't know the answer, why not look somewhere else other than your own brain?

Edited May 19, 2018 by Guest

[Grunt]

3 minutes ago, Luke said:

You are confusing things and trying to take the discussion in a different direction.  Are you still confused about what I mean by the word you know?!  Seems bizarre that almost nobody can give me a direct answer

 

Why does it seem odd?  There is a difference between "can" and "will". 

Edited May 19, 2018 by Grunt

[Behemoth]

15 hours ago, Behemoth said:

I know God doesn’t lie just like I know, and am willing to bet my life on the idea, that 1+1=2. I know God doesn’t lie like I know that I exist and think. 

 

5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

OK.  I'll repeat myself, for your benefit.

 1) The answer to your question in bold is: Yes.  I do.

We all said yes.

I’ll say it again... Yes! And you’re directly avoiding the answers. You are choosing to believe we are lying. That all of reality is a lie. God and Truth are not separable. 

The question is based on a false premise. Like: “what if reality wasn’t reality!?” 

I’m losing hope that words will make any difference to you Luke.

maybe a better question is: When should we use the word know, if it doesn’t imply omniscience? 

My answer for my provided more productive question: we should use the word know, when we sense something is as real as the rest of reality.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Behemoth

[CV75]

15 hours ago, Luke said:

I disagree with your logic.

How do you know you have a veil?

[Luke]

I thank the two of you that I actually responded to my question.  I don't see any further benefit to anyone to continue this conversation thanks for everyone's participation.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Luke said:

 I don't see any further benefit to anyone to continue this conversation

Indeed.  When I answer your question and you decide I haven't and scream that no one is answering your question, then what's the point.

[Behemoth]

With out God, there is no truth. 

Edited May 20, 2018 by Behemoth