Sexual Harassment and General weirdness


Sunday21
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Does the church have a policy on sexual harassment? I am wondering if the church has a policy that directs them to investigate accusations of sexual harassment? For example in my province, if an employee alleges sexual harassment then the employer must investiagate and if the employer finds no evidence then the ministry of labor will investigate.

i am wondering because I sent an email to my bishop describing the behaviour of a male member of the church who was rubbing himself against me in a crowded classroom. I did not complain the first time, I wrapped myself around the woman sitting next to me. On the second ocassion, I emailed the bishop. The man’s wife had warned me that he tended to target her friends and relatives and as I am a friend of hers, she warned me. Mr Rubber has been doing this for decades. I told the Bishop about this in my email.

The next week Mr Rubber was giving the sacrament prayer  and did so for months. A few weeks later he was called to the Presidency of the Elders Quorum. He has been asked to speak in church and generally seemed very happy. Consequently, I have not bothered telling the bishop about this creepy guy who was home teaching me as I figured the bishopric was not very concerned. The creepy guy had been following me to the bathroom during the sacrament service - he told me that he did this-I sometimes have to leave sacrament to administer an injection or otherwise ingest a drug. Having someone follow at such a time is scary because the women’s washroom is in a deserted part of the building.

Mr Creepy told me how much he loves hometeaching me and asked me to provide a home teaching schedule so that he would always be my hometeacher eg always ask for weekends. Of course I immediately did just the opposiate and asked foe weekdays. Mr Creepy was furious and found at time when we were alone in the halls to vent. It was like being confronted by a ‘mean girl’ in high school. Mr Crreepy is married with children by the way! I talked to the hometeaching senior companion who was sympathetic but who also has dementia so it is hard to work with the senior companion.

Time has passes and Mr Rubber has had all callings removed. This change may reflect direction from above; that is now the church cares about sexual harassment. Home teaching has become ministering so the elders have more freedom. The last thing that Mr Creepy needs is more leeway in how he carries out his callings. Mr Creepy has a problem with acceptable boundaries. The handout that he gave me during a hometeaching visit feels quite weird to me. It is a carefully crafted series of cutouts with colouring and shading such as an overly conscienscious sunbeam teacher would produce. 

We now have an elders quorum presidency who are fine upstanding men. I could email these 3 men and suggest that Mr Creepy not teach sisters. Or I could just forget about the whole thing and talk directly to whatever ‘minister’ calls to set up an appointment.

i joined the church as a teenager  and had to dodge the weird people in the ward. I realize now that these people were challenged by substance abuse problems and personality problems but it was very scary and off putting at the time. 

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Sunday,

First, if you're going to talk to someone about these issues, you should separate the two stories entirely and not tell them together / overlapping.  They are not related and mixing them won't help.

NOTE: nothing I'm about to say is meant to question your judgement or express doubt regarding its accuracy.  It's meant to help you see the types of detail you'll need to provide if you want the problem addressed.

If you're going to complain about "Mr. Rubber", then you need to be, frankly, explicit.  What body parts of his is he rubbing against what body parts of yours?  For how long?  Exactly what is it that distinguishes this from simply a person who's too big for their own chair - thus putting their body across chair boundaries - squirming in said chair which means the people in the adjoining chairs feel his movement?  What have you said to him about it?  Frankly, if you've said nothing, how is that not communicating tacit compliance with his behavior?  As I've said, I would have spoken loud enough for people to hear it the first time, and I would have slapped or kneed him the second time, etc.

Dates, times, places, and who said what to whom are all critical (for both stories).  It baffles me that his wife is (a) still your friend, (b) warned you about it, and (c) unable or unwilling to get her husband to stop.  If this is truly sexual in nature, she should be getting him professional help, not just warning the women she likes to avoid her husband - that baffles me beyond words.

Regarding "Mr. Creepy", if this:

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

The handout that he gave me during a hometeaching visit feels quite weird to me. It is a carefully crafted series of cutouts with colouring and shading such as an overly conscienscious sunbeam teacher would produce.

Means he gave you something designed for a child, that's peculiar, but not creepy.  I don't know that I'd include it in any listing of complaints.  If it's not designed for a child, then what is it?  Is it inappropriate other than being for a child?

This, on the other hand:

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

The creepy guy had been following me to the bathroom during the sacrament service - he told me that he did this

...is creepy.  (Did he give you a reason why he did this, or just inform you he did it?  E.g. could he be thinking something like, "Oh, she's my home teachee and headed for an isolated location, I should go and stand guard to keep her safe."  Tacky as that may be, it may not include ill will on his part.  If you're sure that's not the case, what is it that makes you so sure?)

This also:

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

Mr Creepy was furious and found at time when we were alone in the halls to vent.

...is creepy.

This:

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

Mr Creepy told me how much he loves hometeaching me and asked me to provide a home teaching schedule so that he would always be my hometeacher eg always ask for weekends.

...may or may not be creepy, depending on the details.

IMO, your ward leadership should always be concerned about issues like those you raise.  What policies there are in place for investigating and acting, I have no idea.  Note that you don't have to give reasons.  You can simply inform your Elders Quorum President that he is not to assign Mr. Creepy to be your home teacher (ministering brother) ever again.  You don't need to give him a reason.  If you do this (regardless of whether you give a reason) do not be wishy-washy about it.  Be firm and direct: "President Jones, do not ever assign Mr. Creepy to be my ministering brother."  (he says blah blah blah)  You say: "President Jones, do not assign him as my ministering brother."  And just keep repeating that sentence as often as needed until he agrees that he will not make that assignment.  (You should probably add Mr. Rubber to the list of those not to be assigned.)  It doesn't matter whether the EQP likes it, understands, or agrees.  Once this is clear, he should not assign them.  If he does, tell them they can't come, and inform EQP that you have.  Try to act a little American here. ;)

Edited by zil
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@zil Thanks. Yes to some extent there are issues of different approaches based on culture and the American approach is preferable!

i spoke very firmly indeed to Mr Rubber after the second incident. He had my home key at the time as he was meant to be repairing my deck. His wife and I are friends and they needed the money. I made him return my key and told him to stay well away from me in the future. He was shaking when he returned my key so he got the message.

 I should have been more explicit with the bishop about Mr Rubber. I was thinking Canadian and thinking ‘this email is opening a dialogue’.  when telling the bishop that his wife was warning me, I felt I was describing an ongoing problem. But honestly, who has time for the gentle approach much less Bishops? Next time, I will be more direct and explicitly describe what is rubbing what. If I ever teach YW again, I will have to incorporate this into a lesson.

i think that will email Pres Jones about Mr Creepy. I doubt Mr Creepy wants to have much to do with me anyway. I think he wanted a church ‘wife’ like some people have office wives.

 

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1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

Note: Church policy does forbid a single male ministering to a single female in private.   This is for everyone's protection and is a wise move. 

The problem is that creepy people find ways to talk to you in private when you are setting up chairs or if you leave to go to the bathroom during sacrament. They follow you around the building looking for opportunities!

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4 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

@zil Thanks. Yes to some extent there are issues of different approaches based on culture and the American approach is preferable!

i spoke very firmly indeed to Mr Rubber after the second incident. He had my home key at the time as he was meant to be repairing my deck. His wife and I are friends and they needed the money. I made him return my key and told him to stay well away from me in the future. He was shaking when he returned my key so he got the message.

 I should have been more explicit with the bishop about Mr Rubber. I was thinking Canadian and thinking ‘this email is opening a dialogue’.  when telling the bishop that his wife was warning me, I felt I was describing an ongoing problem. But honestly, who has time for the gentle approach much less Bishops? Next time, I will be more direct and explicitly describe what is rubbing what. If I ever teach YW again, I will have to incorporate this into a lesson.

i think that will email Pres Jones about Mr Creepy. I doubt Mr Creepy wants to have much to do with me anyway. I think he wanted a church ‘wife’ like some people have office wives.

From everything I've heard, men can read between their own lines (man to man) but they cannot read between women's lines, so you have to be very explicit, blunt, plain, clear, precise if you want there to be no doubts.  FWIW.

Must go low the mawn now.

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Just now, zil said:

From everything I've heard, men can read between their own lines (man to man) but they cannot read between women's lines, so you have to be very explicit, blunt, plain, clear, precise if you want there to be no doubts.  FWIW.

Must go low the mawn now.

Agreed.  You got to follow this up with MEGA BLUNTNESS.  Point blank words, with time/place/etc.  No euphemisms.  What you're describing with both of these guys is a problem and you need to illustrate that crystal clear so there's no misunderstandings. 

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Guest MormonGator
28 minutes ago, zil said:

From everything I've heard, men can read between their own lines (man to man) but they cannot read between women's lines, so you have to be very explicit, blunt, plain, clear, precise if you want there to be no doubts.  FWIW.

A dirty little secret is that most men have fragile egos and women are often way too nice because they don't want to hurt others feelings. Men can't read women, and the ones who claim to be able to are lying. @Jane_Doe is exactly right. Tell him bluntly, with no room for debate. This guy does sound like a creeper and you have to inform him that no means no, and you won't put up with this anymore. If he doesn't understand this, then it crosses the line from being obtuse to perhaps a form of legit sexual harassment that could be criminal  

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23 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Not to church! Right? No guns in church? 

True enough, but if the restrooms in my Church building were in a dark, deserted corner and there were some creep following sisters around, I believe I would break that rule.

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30 minutes ago, zil said:

True enough, but if the restrooms in my Church building were in a dark, deserted corner and there were some creep following sisters around, I believe I would break that rule.

Wow! You know I have never even laid eyes on a gun in 🇨🇦

But I would consider a baseball bat!

Edited by Sunday21
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54 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

A dirty little secret is that most men have fragile egos and women are often way too nice because they don't want to hurt others feelings. Men can't read women, and the ones who claim to be able to are lying. @Jane_Doe is exactly right. Tell him bluntly, with no room for debate. This guy does sound like a creeper and you have to inform him that no means no, and you won't put up with this anymore. If he doesn't understand this, then it crosses the line from being obtuse to perhaps a form of legit sexual harassment that could be criminal  

Hmmm! I wish that I had known this years ago!

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Guest MormonGator
1 minute ago, Sunday21 said:

Hmmm! I wish that I had known this years ago!

Better late than never. 

Something I've noticed is when you separate the genders both of them don't know how to interact very well. You'll get men who can't help but make women feel awkward and you'll get women who are always on the defensive and view every man with great suspicion. There is a happy medium between "I'm driving a creepy van and have 4 sexual harassment suits pending" and "I'm breaking out the mace because this guy asked me what time it was." 

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

Better late than never. 

Something I've noticed is when you separate the genders both of them don't know how to interact very well. You'll get men who can't help but make women feel awkward and you'll get women who are always on the defensive and view every man with great suspicion. There is a happy medium between "I'm driving a creepy van and have 4 sexual harassment suits pending" and "I'm breaking out the mace because this guy asked me what time it was." 

Yup! Truer words were never spoken! 

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Guest MormonGator
Just now, SilentOne said:

But it is appropriate to use my gun on the creepy guys who want directions to the grocery store or the community college, right?

As long as it's not me, knock yourself (or them) out. 

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Many have given you good advice for dealing with them in a Church setting.

But you did ask about the harassment and investigation of claims.  The church is not an investigative body (no CSI: LDS Church).  So while it is clearly and strongly against abuse and harassment there are serious limits on what it can do. (again many of what it can do has already been covered)

If Mr. Rubber or Mr. Creepy continue (or have already cross the legal lines) you need to go to the police.  If you don't feel they have crossed that line yet, the church is not going to over rule you on that, and do so on your behalf.  Ultimately bringing in the law is up to you.

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13 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

Does the church have a policy on sexual harassment? I am wondering if the church has a policy that directs them to investigate accusations of sexual harassment? For example in my province, if an employee alleges sexual harassment then the employer must investiagate and if the employer finds no evidence then the ministry of labor will investigate.

i am wondering because I sent an email to my bishop describing the behaviour of a male member of the church who was rubbing himself against me in a crowded classroom. I did not complain the first time, I wrapped myself around the woman sitting next to me. On the second ocassion, I emailed the bishop. The man’s wife had warned me that he tended to target her friends and relatives and as I am a friend of hers, she warned me. Mr Rubber has been doing this for decades. I told the Bishop about this in my email.

The next week Mr Rubber was giving the sacrament prayer  and did so for months. A few weeks later he was called to the Presidency of the Elders Quorum. He has been asked to speak in church and generally seemed very happy. Consequently, I have not bothered telling the bishop about this creepy guy who was home teaching me as I figured the bishopric was not very concerned. The creepy guy had been following me to the bathroom during the sacrament service - he told me that he did this-I sometimes have to leave sacrament to administer an injection or otherwise ingest a drug. Having someone follow at such a time is scary because the women’s washroom is in a deserted part of the building.

Mr Creepy told me how much he loves hometeaching me and asked me to provide a home teaching schedule so that he would always be my hometeacher eg always ask for weekends. Of course I immediately did just the opposiate and asked foe weekdays. Mr Creepy was furious and found at time when we were alone in the halls to vent. It was like being confronted by a ‘mean girl’ in high school. Mr Crreepy is married with children by the way! I talked to the hometeaching senior companion who was sympathetic but who also has dementia so it is hard to work with the senior companion.

Time has passes and Mr Rubber has had all callings removed. This change may reflect direction from above; that is now the church cares about sexual harassment. Home teaching has become ministering so the elders have more freedom. The last thing that Mr Creepy needs is more leeway in how he carries out his callings. Mr Creepy has a problem with acceptable boundaries. The handout that he gave me during a hometeaching visit feels quite weird to me. It is a carefully crafted series of cutouts with colouring and shading such as an overly conscienscious sunbeam teacher would produce. 

We now have an elders quorum presidency who are fine upstanding men. I could email these 3 men and suggest that Mr Creepy not teach sisters. Or I could just forget about the whole thing and talk directly to whatever ‘minister’ calls to set up an appointment.

i joined the church as a teenager  and had to dodge the weird people in the ward. I realize now that these people were challenged by substance abuse problems and personality problems but it was very scary and off putting at the time. 

You've brought up this issue here before.  I'm still wondering why you didn't just call the police on him.  If that's how a guy behaves, he doesn't belong in free society.

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