Spouse Swapping


Lost Boy
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You ever let your brain wander??

So if you are sealed to your spouse and your spouse dies, and you end up remarrying a widow who is also sealed to her dead husband, isn't that like doing a spouse swap?

And all of that is good.

So why is it bad if both couples are still alive and they decide to do a spouse swap for a few weeks? 

I mean I don't have any plans of doing this..  just curious.

 

And bonus question....  if the couple that got remarried decide they like each other more than their dead spouses....   any recourse for that?   Just something to chew on.

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14 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

You ever let your brain wander??

Yes.  I have ADHD. It's kinda part of the package.

Quote

isn't that like doing a spouse swap?

No, it's not.

Quote

So why is it bad if ...? 

Because the Lord says so.

Quote

....   any recourse for that? 

Nope.

As you can see, I gave these questions as much attention as they deserved (possibly more).

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3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Yes.  I have ADHD. It's kinda part of the package.

No, it's not.

Because the Lord says so.

Nope.

As you can see, I gave these questions as much attention as they deserved (possibly more).

Certainly appreciate the great effort.:)

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3 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

You ever let your brain wander??

So if you are sealed to your spouse and your spouse dies, and you end up remarrying a widow who is also sealed to her dead husband, isn't that like doing a spouse swap?

And all of that is good.

So why is it bad if both couples are still alive and they decide to do a spouse swap for a few weeks? 

I mean I don't have any plans of doing this..  just curious.

In the first case, the two principals are married, and their conjugal relations are lawful. In the second case, such relations are fornication.

My response above is viewing the question from a definitional standpoint. That's not a bad way to look at it, but there are other ways. So-called "spouse swapping" directly attacks the foundation of society, while widows remarrying acts to strengthen that foundation. "Spouse swapping" is an unmitigated evil.

3 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

And bonus question....  if the couple that got remarried decide they like each other more than their dead spouses....   any recourse for that?   Just something to chew on.

Do the inhabitants of the celestial kingdom eat buttered popcorn while they watch movies? Wait...will popcorn exist? Butter? Movies? What do the inhabitants of Zion do for fun, anyway?

I suspect that those who inherit eternal life will not love one spouse above another, any more than they will love one brother or sister above another. All are precious, all are loved. And I suspect the sexual aspect of marriage, both physically and emotionally, will be less prominent in marriage, even as it will be far more powerful.

But all my suppositions might as well be about popcorn seasoning. I think this is an unknowable

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4 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

You ever let your brain wander??

So if you are sealed to your spouse and your spouse dies, and you end up remarrying a widow who is also sealed to her dead husband, isn't that like doing a spouse swap?

And all of that is good.

So why is it bad if both couples are still alive and they decide to do a spouse swap for a few weeks? 

I mean I don't have any plans of doing this..  just curious.

 

And bonus question....  if the couple that got remarried decide they like each other more than their dead spouses....   any recourse for that?   Just something to chew on.

In the first case they are lawfully married. If two couples got divorced then remarried each other itvwaoul also be lawful. 

The recorse for those with dead spouses who have then remarried is that they can be sealed to the new spouse. 

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1 minute ago, Vort said:

In the first case, the two principals are married, and their conjugal relations are lawful. In the second case, such relations are fornication.

My response above is viewing the question from a definitional standpoint. That's not a bad way to look at it, but there are other ways. So-called "spouse swapping" directly attacks the foundation of society, while widows remarrying acts to strengthen that foundation. "Spouse swapping" is an unmitigated evil.

Do the inhabitants of the celestial kingdom eat buttered popcorn while they watch movies? Wait...will popcorn exist? Butter? Movies? What do the inhabitants of Zion do for fun, anyway?

I suspect that those who inherit eternal life will not love one spouse above another, any more than they will love one brother or sister above another. All are precious, all are loved. And I suspect the sexual aspect of marriage, both physically and emotionally, will be less prominent in marriage, even as it will be far more powerful.

But all my suppositions might as well be about popcorn seasoning. I think this is an unknowable

In the first case they are married, but they are celestially tied to someone else as well.  Isn't that like fornicating with someone elses spouse?  Or can the spirits that have passed on view it without jealousy?

 

And for the 2nd situation wanting to be with the second spouse...  Can you get sealed to the second spouse if they are already sealed to someone who is dead?

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1 minute ago, Lost Boy said:

In the first case they are married, but they are celestially tied to someone else as well.  Isn't that like fornicating with someone elses spouse?

Nope. Not in the least. Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled.

2 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

Or can the spirits that have passed on view it without jealousy?

It is my strictly personal, completely unsubstantiated opinion that such sexual jealousy is a feature of our mortal condition, at least with respect to sex between a widow(er) and his/her new spouse.

3 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

And for the 2nd situation wanting to be with the second spouse...  Can you get sealed to the second spouse if they are already sealed to someone who is dead?

I can't answer this authoritatively, but I believe the answer is "no". Such work can be done by proxy later on. But I don't know how such things work in the eternities. I suspect that most of us don't have a good foundation for understanding the answer to this question, anyway.

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4 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

In the first case they are married, but they are celestially tied to someone else as well.  Isn't that like fornicating with someone elses spouse?  Or can the spirits that have passed on view it without jealousy?

 

And for the 2nd situation wanting to be with the second spouse...  Can you get sealed to the second spouse if they are already sealed to someone who is dead?

A remarriage of widowers/widows entails a lifelong commitment, emotional bond, and duty of material support that far exceeds a simple two-week wife-swapping fling.  

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3 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

In the first case they are lawfully married. If two couples got divorced then remarried each other itvwaoul also be lawful. 

The recorse for those with dead spouses who have then remarried is that they can be sealed to the new spouse. 

Still kind of weird to me to think if I died, my wife could be with another man and love another man.  If death were the end of it all, then I wouldn't be weirded out by it, but we believe death isn't the end.

I thought that you couldn't get sealed in your second marriage if both parties are already sealed to someone else.

 

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4 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

You ever let your brain wander??

So if you are sealed to your spouse and your spouse dies, and you end up remarrying a widow who is also sealed to her dead husband, isn't that like doing a spouse swap?

And all of that is good.

So why is it bad if both couples are still alive and they decide to do a spouse swap for a few weeks? 

I mean I don't have any plans of doing this..  just curious.

And bonus question....  if the couple that got remarried decide they like each other more than their dead spouses....   any recourse for that?   Just something to chew on.

I would venture to say that everyone at some point has pondered different types of questions. I am only adding another witness to what has already been stated:

A spouse swap is an agreement between "married" couples to have conjugal relations outside of their marriage. This is adultery (fornication). This is sexual relations outside of the bonds of marriage, and more importantly spouse swapping is outside the bonds the Lord has set.

As of right now, we currently live within "Telestial laws", and we are held accordingly to "Telestial Laws." In our scriptures we are informed of a Celestial law regarding "divorce" and "adultery." If the Lord put into place higher laws, Terrestrial or Celestial, then we would be bond by these laws, which may put such relationships within the breaking of a commandment realm. As of right now, there is nothing similar to "spouse swapping" and "remarriage" after a spouse has passed away.

Our moral agency is still intact when we leave this earth. Our Father in heaven will not force anyone to be with anyone in this next life. With that said, a couple that remarries is in the same position as a male or female if their spouse died and then they remarry. They will have the choice in this life to be sealed to a different person the one they are currently living with if they choose to do so. I know of someone whose spouse passed away after six months of marriage. It was an unfortunate car accident. She remarried and is now sealed to her husband, which in some cases makes sense seeing she has known him longer, she has children with him, and he was never sealed previously.

 

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1 minute ago, Just_A_Guy said:

A remarriage of widowers/widows entails a lifelong commitment, emotional bond, and duty of material support that far exceeds a simple two-week wife-swapping fling.  

I agree to that.  but would it be easier to forgive your wife for a two week fling or a 2 month affair with emotional bonding?  I consider the emotional relationship my wife had with another man over the course of a year in a half.  They never talked sex or things like that, but they certainly formed a strong bond.  And that tore me up inside.  The only physical contact they had were a few very brief hugs at work..  just like a quicky type hug.   But I wonder how I would have felt had it just been a two week fling..  Would it be easier to get over it?  Easier to forgive?  And I wonder if my experience changes my perspective on the whole remarriage thing after the death of a spouse.

I guess in the end, I wouldn't want her to be alone for a long time.  Nor would I want to be alone.  I imagine many couples have wrestled with this.

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1 minute ago, Lost Boy said:

I agree to that.  but would it be easier to forgive your wife for a two week fling or a 2 month affair with emotional bonding?  I consider the emotional relationship my wife had with another man over the course of a year in a half.  They never talked sex or things like that, but they certainly formed a strong bond.  And that tore me up inside.  The only physical contact they had were a few very brief hugs at work..  just like a quicky type hug.   But I wonder how I would have felt had it just been a two week fling..  Would it be easier to get over it?  Easier to forgive?  And I wonder if my experience changes my perspective on the whole remarriage thing after the death of a spouse.

I guess in the end, I wouldn't want her to be alone for a long time.  Nor would I want to be alone.  I imagine many couples have wrestled with this.

I think that last paragraph there is the money quote.  I suspect most folks can work through the issues when they realize that the alternative for their surviving spouse is to spend the rest of their lives alone.

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10 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

Still kind of weird to me to think if I died, my wife could be with another man and love another man.  If death were the end of it all, then I wouldn't be weirded out by it, but we believe death isn't the end.

I thought that you couldn't get sealed in your second marriage if both parties are already sealed to someone else.

 

There are special circumstances regarding previous dealings but I don’t know the policy. 

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2 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I would venture to say that everyone at some point has pondered different types of questions. I am only adding another witness to what has already been stated:

A spouse swap is an agreement between "married" couples to have conjugal relations outside of their marriage. This is adultery (fornication). This is sexual relations outside of the bonds of marriage, and more importantly spouse swapping is outside the bonds the Lord has set.

As of right now, we currently live within "Telestial laws", and we are held accordingly to "Telestial Laws." In our scriptures we are informed of a Celestial law regarding "divorce" and "adultery." If the Lord put into place higher laws, Terrestrial or Celestial, then we would be bond by these laws, which may put such relationships within the breaking of a commandment realm. As of right now, there is nothing similar to "spouse swapping" and "remarriage" after a spouse has passed away.

Our moral agency is still intact when we leave this earth. Our Father in heaven will not force anyone to be with anyone in this next life. With that said, a couple that remarries is in the same position as a male or female if their spouse died and then they remarry. They will have the choice in this life to be sealed to a different person the one they are currently living with if they choose to do so. I know of someone whose spouse passed away after six months of marriage. It was an unfortunate car accident. She remarried and is now sealed to her husband, which in some cases makes sense seeing she has known him longer, she has children with him, and he was never sealed previously.

 

What if she had been sealed before?

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2 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

What if she had been sealed before?

I am assuming you are referring to the last paragraph. She was sealed to her first husband. She went through bishop, stake president, and first president to be unsealed in order to be sealed to her current husband.

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1 minute ago, Anddenex said:

I am assuming you are referring to the last paragraph. She was sealed to her first husband. She went through bishop, stake president, and first president to be unsealed in order to be sealed to her current husband.

Interesting.

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On a similar note I have heard of BYU students going to Las Vegas for the weekend, getting married, having sex then having the marriage annulled. 

This practice is condemned but to me it seems totally legal and therefore not fornication. 

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2 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

On a similar note I have heard of BYU students going to Las Vegas for the weekend, getting married, having sex then having the marriage annulled. 

This practice is condemned but to me it seems totally legal and therefore not fornication. 

Wow. Never heard of that one. 

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5 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

On a similar note I have heard of BYU students going to Las Vegas for the weekend, getting married, having sex then having the marriage annulled. 

This practice is condemned but to me it seems totally legal and therefore not fornication. 

I have reason to believe that this old urban legend, alive and well way back in the 1980s when I was a student in Provo, is actually true -- or at least based on a true incident involving a number of people. From my understanding of the event, those people were excommunicated for fornication, making a mockery of marriage.

I heard a wise man (or a wise guy) say that God is not a hidebound lawyer, checking to see if we have transgressed any formal detail of the law. I think those involved in this event thought they were being very clever indeed, and in doing so brought upon themselves their own condemnation. I can only hope they grew up after that, repented, and fully turned from their repugnant foolishness.

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10 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Wow. Never heard of that one. 

4 minutes ago, Vort said:

I have reason to believe that this old urban legend, alive and well way back in the 1980s when I was a student in Provo, is actually true -- or at least based on a true incident involving a number of people. From my understanding of the event, those people were excommunicated for fornication, making a mockery of marriage.

I heard a wise man (or a wise guy) say that God is not a hidebound lawyer, checking to see if we have transgressed any formal detail of the law. I think those involved in this event thought they were being very clever indeed, and in doing so brought upon themselves their own condemnation. I can only hope they grew up after that, repented, and fully turned from their repugnant foolishness.

Not only that, but they completely misunderstood the meaning of "annulment."  It is legally an agreement that the marriage was never valid in the first place.  So, they were actually committing fornication.

@Vort,

I was having trouble giving you a proper reaction icon.  I was laughing at your self-referential bit of wisdom.  But I was sad at people who would be so foolish to think they could pull one over on God.  And, yes, I heard the same stories when I was there.  As far as I knew, it was an urban legend.  Unfortunately, I also believe that such a legend put it into the heads of some other people to do it for real.  Copycats of an urban legend... That's smart.

It happens.

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Just now, Carborendum said:

Not only that, but they completely misunderstood the meaning of "annulment."  It is legally an agreement that the marriage was never valid in the first place.  So, they were actually committing fornication.

My informant, whom I knew to be truthful and not given to making stuff up and who claimed to have second-person knowledge of the event, indicated that the marriages were ended by divorce, not annulment. I don't claim to have any knowledge one way or the other.

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3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Not only that, but they completely misunderstood the meaning of "annulment."  It is legally an agreement that the marriage was never valid in the first place.  So, they were actually committing fornication.

I don't believe it happens much I could be wrong, I'm not really down with what the modern LDS youth does. 

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Totally unrelated but while I was at BYU in the mid 80’s the clarification was made that temple garments can be removed for sex. 

Apparently someone had been teaching that they could not be removed. I wasn’t married at the time but regardless I wouldn’t have thought twice about taking them off.  

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10 minutes ago, Vort said:

My informant, whom I knew to be truthful and not given to making stuff up and who claimed to have second-person knowledge of the event, indicated that the marriages were ended by divorce, not annulment. I don't claim to have any knowledge one way or the other.

Mmmm hmmm. :) 

10 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I don't believe it happens much. If at all. I could be wrong, I'm not really down with what the modern LDS youth does. 

After hearing from youth counselors, I'm convinced that if it is possible to do, if a youth hears about it and has not been raised properly, they will copy an urban legend.  This sounds just plausible enough to me that even if it started out as a legend, I'd bet dollars to donuts, that some college kids tried to do it.  But then they got hit with reality.

While Nevada allows weddings at the drop of a hat.  Divorce and annulment are for residents only.  They'd have to get the divorce or annulment in Utah.  And a divorce is much more complicated than an annulment.

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