STILL FLAWED!!


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I don’t get this whole “fake friends” attitude.  We’re all brothers and sisters on Earth for the same purpose.  Being LDS is all you NEED to have in common with them.  You made the choice to come and receive a mortal body.  I can’t imagine that the choice didn’t include a sincere desire to help each other endure to the end.  

In my opinion, the very flaw in your plan is the premise upon which is based.  You’re not as social and have few interactions outside of church.  What about the brother that doesn’t even come to church anymore?  Are they any less worthy of support?  I believe they need us MORE.  That brother likely has zero interactions with the priesthood to recharge his batteries.  That interaction doesn’t need to be a lesson.  It can be dropping off cookies with a note, knocking on the door, then walking away.  That person knows he may have walked away from the church, but we haven’t walked away from him and will be here when he needs us.  

Im probably so new that I’m not jaded yet, but yesterday I told a counselor I’m friends with that I WANT the families nobody wants.  I WANT the brother who came once, got baptized, then disappeared.  

I still think I can save the world.  Even though I’m a pretty grumpy loaner, I think I can be a friend to someone whether they need it or not.  Without assignments, the people who need it most wont get it.  

Edited by Grunt
Ditched the sarcastic one liner.
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4 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Christ was not assigned to minister to people. He casually went about his travels and anyone he met along the way he shared the message. That is true, genuine, Ministering.

That's missionary work which ministering is only a part.

Ministering is what Jesus left the Apostles with - they got assigned to specific areas to minister to the early Christians.

Now, your idea of ministering only those who you, by circumstance only, come in contact with does not do the job.  Ministering is work such that EVERYBODY gets ministered in some form or another.

The problem you have with ministering is you already convinced yourself you can't do it.  "I'm this so I can't do that".  Well, guess what... all the more you need to minister - so you will stop from being limited by "I'm this".  Serve your fellowman with sincerity.  Being a Fake ministering saint is a choice you make.

 

Edited by anatess2
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As @Grunt said, your plan would result in friends and perhaps neighbors ministering to one another, and many people ministering to no one, and many people not being ministered to at all.

Next, I'd like to point out that not one single friendship on the planet began by two people simply choosing to be friends.  Rather, they began with two people:

  • Sitting next to each other in a bar, at a diner, in a waiting room, at the same church, in a political gathering...
  • Waiting in line, waiting for their children, waiting for their spouses...
  • Serving together in a calling, attending the same class, being linked via home or visiting teaching...
  • Joining the same gym, book club, shooting club, or some other organization...
  • Working together, going to school together, volunteering together...
  • Buying houses next to each other...
  • Having a friend in common who introduces them...

Every single friendship on the planet started by two strangers being brought together by some external force.  There is no other way for people to meet - some external force / reason puts them into proximity with each other and after the initial contact (or more likely, after repeats of that externally forced contact), they choose to continue / extend it.  No one picks a stranger's name out of a magical hat full of strangers' names and says, "I'm gonna go make friends with this stranger."

ETA: So why is home/visiting teaching such an awful external force and the rest of them aren't?

Finally, I'd like to point out that ministering does not have to be the same as friendship.  That would be ideal and ministering may not be the best without it, but it doesn't have to be there at the start for people to minister and be ministered to.  Logistically and statistically, it's unlikely that all ministering will include true friendship (especially what introverts consider true friendship).  But this is mostly because we choose not to sacrifice but to instead be selfish.

Edited by zil
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8 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

No matter what way you slice and dice it, it is still an ASSIGNMENT! ..now its an ASSIGNMENT with out a check box.

The whole problem with home teaching was that members felt that they were being assigned friends, aka fake friends. This new ministering concept is a step in the right direction but it still needs fine tuning.

Would you rather someone be "assigned" a friend?  Or have no friends?

As people associate, people make friends on their own.  If some people are more reclusive or introverted, they will never make friends.  If assigned, they will become friends.  Why do you believe that when you're assigned something, that means it must be fake?

If I'm assigned to be the Sunday School teacher, am I a FAKE Sunday School teacher?

If I'm assinged to be the bishop, am I a FAKE bishop?

If I'm assigned to be the choir director, am I a FAKE choir director?

These all may not be qualified at the beginning. But people learn.

Tell me -- how do people make friends?  I'll tell you how I see it.

  • They meet and introduce themselves.
  • They talk about themselves and what's going on in their lives.
  • They talk about important things... like... I dunno... spiritual things... or possibly ... needs... questions... concerns... trials...
  • As they do so on a regular basis, they develop a relationship over time.

What in this process does NOT happen with a faithful home teacher?

You seem to have this nebulous concept of what friendship is.  I'll quote Data from Star Trek.  I know, it's fiction.  I know he's an android.  But it makes perfect sense.

Quote

As I associate with other being, I soon become accustomed to their sensory input patterns.  Over time, these patterns become anticipated, or even "missed" when absent.

He describes it as "sensory input patterns".  To put it into human emotional speech, this means that we become a part of each others' lives.  We expect certain people to be there for us. They expect us to be there for them. That is what friendship is.

You're talking about some spiritual / emotional aspect of it.  But I'll guarantee you that if you go through the steps I've outlined above, human nature will kick in and fill in the rest.

Edited by Guest
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8 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Christ was not assigned to minister to people. He casually went about his travels and anyone he met along the way he shared the message. That is true, genuine, Ministering.

You can still casually go about your travels (did He really?). He was assigned to the Jews; after His ascension His followers were assigned to the Gentiles as well.

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8 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

(disclaimer: title is kind of a click bait)

No matter what way you slice and dice it, it is still an ASSIGNMENT! ..now its an ASSIGNMENT with out a check box.

The whole problem with home teaching was that members felt that they were being assigned friends, aka fake friends. This new ministering concept is a step in the right direction but it still needs fine tuning.

If you understand my personality I come from a sheltered upbringing, I only had two or three "real" friends in high school and when they were not around I was a loner, I dont socialize very well. I love all my fellow EQ brethren but other then one or two of them, I really dont care what the others did over the weekend because other then being LDS I have nothing in common with them.

The "tweak" in Ministering should be one in where us as individual members report back an interaction we had with ANY of the ward members (male/female/young/old) during the month. And it shouldnt be limited to our ward only, include the stake and maybe even any LDS member. We are a worldwide church connected through the internet, why cant we be an influence and example to all.

Examples:

1. Every once in a while as I drive around town I will see one of the youth boys in my ward sitting at the bus stop. I stop and offer a ride. I have also done the same with my friends son who is in another ward. That is true ministering.

2. Im at the soccer field watching my kids game, after the game as we walk toward the parking lot we see another family from the ward and their kid playing in a game. We stop and cheer for their kid a few minutes and go on our way.

3. I played college basketball and I love the sport dearly. I hear about a father in the ward who is training his 14yr old son to be a basketball player. I offer to come and practice and help train with them. A family that I only used to say hi to at church I now become very close to them. Organic genuine Friendship.

4. I have one friend in my ward that we been going to the gym together for the past year. One of the other EQ members over heard us talking about the gym and wanted to join us. We now have a group of three that go to the gym together. That is true ministering

5. My relationship with my ward clerk is basically Hi/Bye at church. One day on facebook I see that he replied to a post in one of our local news stories. I replied to him supporting his stance. True genuine interaction and beginning of better friendships.

Christ was not assigned to minister to people. He casually went about his travels and anyone he met along the way he shared the message. That is true, genuine, Ministering.

All the failure you speak of comes from the receiver of the ministering. I think a huge part of any discussion on ministering should include a bit about how we need to receive such services, not just give it.

It doesn’t bother me one bit that the only reason my ministering member comes over is because he is assigned to. He has special stewardship to bless my family and I am going to allow him in

Edited by Fether
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29 minutes ago, priesthoodpower said:

Changing the name and method is a start but this idea of being ASSIGNED is still a problem. 

Are you really so deluded as to think that having no assignments would work better?

Please note that just because people aren't now following the Spirit in assignments, aren't interviewing quorum/RS members to get to know them so they can make more inspired assignments doesn't mean it can't happen, it only means it doesn't happen.  But doing away with assignments altogether isn't going to help - that's how you end up with only the popular people visiting the other popular people and the unpopular people (who are generally the ones who need it most) getting left in the cold.  We may as well just kick them out of the Church and tell them not to come back until they figure out how to be popular.

Quote

21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my ministering brother fake a smile at me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

It's your pride that makes you not want to let him in.  Any number of things could be behind his fake smiles (maybe he thinks you're an arrogant jerk).  But if the two of you never forgive and never try to make it work, it never will.

I spend a lot of time trying to figure out how humans work (cuz I really don't get it), and one of the conclusions I've come to (and can't seem to find a way around) is that it's our selfishness that wants someone who is the same as us (hobbies, talents, interests) so that we don't have to completely give ourselves up and spend time 100% focused on what we are not interested in but the other is interested in.  (And lest you think I'm finding fault with you I will clarify that I am condemning myself with this observation.)

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12 minutes ago, priesthoodpower said:

But according to ZIL that dont count because he wasnt ASSIGNED to me.

Nonsense.  And it's not about "counting".  Of course you can inform your EQP that you have an interest in ministering to a specific person, and of course your EQP can consider that when making assignments.

My problem is that you are speaking ill of a program which a prophet of God has said was inspired by the Lord Jesus Christ, and you're doing it without even giving it time to be implemented, without giving the saints time to step up, without putting forth the effort to sacrifice and obey.

4 minutes ago, priesthoodpower said:

As it currently stands, I havent done my HT in about two years. That is 0% in two years.

A simple tweek in the program to allow us to choose our own familys to minister to.....
...in my case alone I would self-assign myself to brother (A) and brother (B) whom I already go to the gym with atleast 4 times a month

and also Brother (C) who lives in another wards boundary. This alone will automatically increase my HT to 100%.

----------------------------------------------------

It should be an organic process as much as possible, and less forcing aka ASSIGNING.

Do you not realize that what you're saying is that you would do your ministering if only it were more convenient, if only you didn't have to sacrifice any extra time but could instead "count" time you're already using for your own purposes as also going toward the Lord's purposes?  You're making yourself sound lazy and selfish.  Whether you are or not is your business, but that's how it reads.

Go do what you will - that's been the way since Satan was kicked out of heaven.

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2 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

When you walk by someone in the hallway and they half way smile and dont make eye contact and they seem not interested in getting to know you. Then after they are assigned to be your HT they show up at your door with a smile and cookies....FAKE! Id rather not have that person as a friend.

Except you seem to have an unrealistic expectation of other people.  So many times we read things into other people that aren't there at all. Who knows why someone gives you a half-way smile and don't make contact at Church-it could be for any number of reasons, bad day, family issues, etc. 

And yes, everyone has different personalities/traits for different instances.  When you are giving a big presentation at work, your personality, your demeanor is different than if it's a normal work day.  When you interview for a position or a job, it's different than if you are just reporting the weeks activity to your boss.  Just b/c someone's demeanor is different when they show up at your door vs. before they were your HT does not mean they are fake . . .it means they are HUMAN!

It'd be great, if every time at Church, every single person always had a smile on and was always pleasant and all that stuff, but it's just not possible.

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2 minutes ago, priesthoodpower said:

Did you not hear that we are now able to count a HT "action" by simply sending a text, liking a facebook post or stopping by the park to say Hi. That sounds like a lot less effort then preparing a lesson, dressing up in sunday best, making the apt and visiting the family at their home. Sounds lazy and convenient to me...oh, wait the Prophet of God approved it and called it Ministering.

I do agree it seems like it can be a lot less effort . . .I don't really like that aspect.  But one thing I have noticed more recently is the number of active going members who made it really, really hard to do HT.  I've had very poor luck over the past 4-5 years.  One family (the husband became the EQP), I could never HT-not b/c I didn't want to, but b/c they simply were never available-or I should say never made themselves available-every single time it was "we are doing great-we'll let you know".  I've had several families like that . . .at least now I don't have to feel so dang guilty for not being able to get into their house.

I really wish we would speak more to the actual responsibilities of being ministered to-you can't minister to someone who doesn't make it easy to be ministered to.

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26 minutes ago, priesthoodpower said:

Can those people that are not popular in the HT/Ministering program still come and take sacrament, attend their sunday school and  EQ meetings?

Geeeezzzeee, you are one of those All-or-Nothing Mormons.

I have no idea what you're "one of those" comment means.  I do know that we are not to ignore our brothers and sisters and leave them with no fellowship; and that for now, the Lord has said this is the program by which we do our best to prevent it.  Your first sentence reads like, "Yeah, sure come attend if you want, but don't expect us to be all friendly-like with you.  Maybe after you stop being so needy and all."

As for your assignment ideas - I read them, I just don't understand why you can't see that there's nothing but you stopping you from going and discussing these things with your EQP.  What he does with them is his business, but there's no reason you can't make suggestions - I imagine he'd welcome them.  There's never been a single thing in place to stop you from going and talking to him about these ideas.

18 minutes ago, priesthoodpower said:

In my previous example I mentioned that I gave my friends son, members in another ward, a ride home from the bus stop. When the EQ pres calls for reporting I would like to tell him I ministered to a member in another ward.

PS:  (1) There's no reason you can't tell him whatever you wish to tell him.

(2) Your counseling isn't supposed to be about whether you're doing good at ministering ("oh, add a ministering point to my score"); your reporting is supposed to be about how the people to whom you are assigned to minister are doing - you've got the focus backward:

Quote

Instead, ministering brothers and sisters have an opportunity to counsel with their elders quorum and Relief Society leaders about the circumstances of those they serve and about their ongoing ministering efforts.

...

A ministering interview is held (1) to counsel about the strengths, needs, and challenges of assigned families and individuals; (2) to determine what needs the quorum, Relief Society, or ward council might assist with; and (3) to learn from leaders and be encouraged in ministering efforts.

https://www.lds.org/mycalling/ministering-faq?lang=eng

What do they need, how I'm trying to minister to that need, and then I receive training and encouragement.  Not, "Oh look at all the wonderful things I'm doing that should count in my favor."

The point is supposed to be to ensure that leadership of the ward know the membership and don't let anyone fall through the cracks.  Since they can't do that alone (unless there's a bunch of them filthy rich who can do it full time), the work is delegated down through the ranks.

If you're not meaning to come off this way, you might want to rethink the way you're saying whatever it is you mean to say.

5 minutes ago, priesthoodpower said:

Did you not hear that we are now able to count a HT "action" by simply sending a text, liking a facebook post or stopping by the park to say Hi. That sounds like a lot less effort then preparing a lesson, dressing up in sunday best, making the apt and visiting the family at their home. Sounds lazy and convenient to me...oh, wait the Prophet of God approved it and called it Ministering.

I'm not the one bragging about never doing my ministering assignments.  Lazy is not the same as "ministering in the way which best meets the needs of those to whom you minister".  That the above are listed as possibilities does not mean "this is all that's required, so get all lazy now".  Good grief already.  We've got it - you hate the way the Lord has instructed his leaders to organize ministering and you're not going to play until the Lord changes things to match your opinions.  Message received.  Now follow channels because we have no stewardship - go tell your bishop and he can pass it up the chain until it makes it to the prophet and we'll see what he does with your ideas.

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2 minutes ago, dellme said:

I do agree it seems like it can be a lot less effort . . .I don't really like that aspect.  But one thing I have noticed more recently is the number of active going members who made it really, really hard to do HT.  I've had very poor luck over the past 4-5 years.  One family (the husband became the EQP), I could never HT-not b/c I didn't want to, but b/c they simply were never available-or I should say never made themselves available-every single time it was "we are doing great-we'll let you know".  I've had several families like that . . .at least now I don't have to feel so dang guilty for not being able to get into their house.

I really wish we would speak more to the actual responsibilities of being ministered to-you can't minister to someone who doesn't make it easy to be ministered to.

IMO, this is why we're now expected to integrate ourselves into their schedules rather than asking them to make time for us to come.  Their kid has [some event] and we go watch with the family.  They're pulling weeds in the yard and we come help.  They're posting about events on FB and we read, comment, and engage asynchronously.  At least, that's how it seems.

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1 minute ago, zil said:

IMO, this is why we're now expected to integrate ourselves into their schedules rather than asking them to make time for us to come.  Their kid has [some event] and we go watch with the family.  They're pulling weeds in the yard and we come help.  They're posting about events on FB and we read, comment, and engage asynchronously.  At least, that's how it seems.

That is a lot easier said than done. I guess for those people who decide to post their entire lives on Facebook/Twitter/etc and broadcast that they just went to the bathroom that's cool and it's a piece of cake, but sorry that's not how my family rolls. I'm not going to be looking at my ministering families Facebook/Twitter feeds and stalking them and anyone expecting to do the same will be sorely disappointed.

If that's what "ministering" looks like, then you can count me out-I have very, very little use for social media and it's evils.

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9 minutes ago, priesthoodpower said:

In my suggested tweak of "self-assigning", that family that made it difficult for you to come over would probably had preffered another member assigned to them. But you know we will never tell the EQ pres or the HTers that "we dont feel comfortable with you coming over".

I also made the same excuses and avoided my HT from coming over, why? Because on top of living in a small messy apt, I also have a wife and 3 daughters and I dont trust no one coming over except a select few. If the EQ pres asked who I wanted to come over I would request Brother (X) and I would let him in every month.  

That actually says a lot more about you than anything else. You don't "trust" anyone coming over except a select few?  Seriously? You have such little trust in members of the Church that only a "select few" can dare to step into your abode?  Geez, what do you think the male members of the Church are rapists, womanizers, etc? 

Oh I'm sure, the reason is "we don't feel comfortable with you coming over" (could be personal against me or not) Like I said, we don't do a good job of addressing the receiving end of it.  I have NEVER refused to open my home to any representative from the Church-it's just silly. Unless you give me a reason NOT to trust you, the fact you are a member of the Church brings with it (or should bring with it) some level of inherent trust . . .if it doesn't, whelp we've got a long, long way to go if that is the level of trust inherent in fellow ward members.

I mean really, how in the world can you expect to get 100% HT when you won't open the door yourself?  It seems just a little hypocritical to me . . .

And in fact, the solution you propose will be counter-productive-your solution is exactly how you get cliques going and how you would get a cliquish ward-not good.

Edited by dellme
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15 minutes ago, priesthoodpower said:

Did you not hear that we are now able to count a HT "action" by simply sending a text, liking a facebook post or stopping by the park to say Hi. That sounds like a lot less effort then preparing a lesson, dressing up in sunday best, making the apt and visiting the family at their home. Sounds lazy and convenient to me...oh, wait the Prophet of God approved it and called it Ministering.

My advice would be to do what makes the most sense (head and heart) to you - both about who to help, and also about how to help them .  Nobody is going to know if you don't!  At least they shouldn't, right?

You sound like you really want to make a difference - the kind of difference that matters.  That's a rare and a valuable thing.  i sure am grateful there are good people out there like yourself.

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