Denmark passes law banning " garments that cover the face"

[Guest MormonGator]

32 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

So . . . We need new victims for our state-run pyramid marketing schemes?  

@Just_A_Guy, one of the few things we'll agree on is that government run health care is a road to ruin. 

[Overwatch]

On 5/31/2018 at 4:07 PM, MormonGator said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/31/denmark-passes-law-banning-burqa-and-niqab

This is a horrible idea. If they can ban burqas, why not endowment clothing? 

I think they might have gone overboard with the burga but I don't see an issue with them banning the niqabs. I mean, how would you feel if a waiter walked up to your table, at a restaurant, wearing a ninja mask?  Besides, wearing a niqab might interfere with facial recognition systems put in place to look for careless wanted people. Assuming a careful wanted person would wear make-up, silicone mask or something else. A niqab would make it too easy to do stuff and get away with it. Can you imagine trying to identify someone on a security camera if 10 plus people are wearing niqabs?

not really worried they'll go after anyone else but hey, Hitler started with the handicapped and homosexuals before targeting Jews. At least I think that was the order

Edited June 2, 2018 by Overwatch
*

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, Overwatch said:

I think they might have gone overboard with the burga but I don't see an issue with them banning the niqabs. I mean, how would you feel if a waiter walked up to your table, at a restaurant, wearing a ninja mask?  Besides, wearing a niqab might interfere with facial recognition systems put in place to look for careless wanted people. Assuming a careful wanted person would wear make-up, silicone mask or something else. A niqab would make it to easy to do stuff and get away with it. Can you imagine trying to identify someone on a security camera if 10 plus people are wearing niqabs?

not really worried they'll go after anyone else but hey, Hitler started with the handicapped and homosexuals before targeting Jews. At least I think that was the order

I understand what you are saying. 

I'm still concerned though. After all, if I'm okay with the state banning something geared/directed towards one particular religion (and it is) then I lose my right to say "Hey, the state can't ban endowment clothing."  in case that ever comes up. 

[Overwatch]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I understand what you are saying. 

I'm still concerned though. After all, if I'm okay with the state banning something geared/directed towards one particular religion (and it is) then I lose my right to say "Hey, the state can't ban endowment clothing."  in case that ever comes up. 

Yeah. I understand why you feel apprehensive.

[person0]

My father and his entire side of the family are Muslim.  For the most part, they are what you might call, 'Jack-Muslim'.  They claim Islam, but live substantially western cultured lives.  They all hate the Jews and, being Palestinian Muslims, wish for the overtaking of Israel.  My father didn't speak to me for 3 years after I once posted on Facebook my support for Israel.  Very few of the women in my father's family wear any type of face covering.  Interestingly, most of the ones who I have met that do are actually Americans who married in to the family and converted.  Similar to Christianity worldwide, many Muslims are slipping away from their traditions into moral complacency and religious apathy; most of my cousins (and also my older brother - who claims to be Muslim) know very little about the religious practices and doctrines of Islam.

Based on my personal experience and (admittedly non-exhaustive) study of Islam, I believe it is the antithesis to the restored gospel, more even than the many differing Christian denominations in existence.  To me, the similarities between Islam and Mormonism are likely by intentional diabolic design.  There are key components of Islam that specifically contradict the truth's of God.  For example:  My father has repeatedly taught me that in Islam it is permitted to question anything, except for God; to seek to know God is contrary to traditional Islamic principles.

Quote

There is no way to know Him by defining "what" He is; rather, one can get to know the proofs of His Existence, Might, Knowledge, Wisdom, Mercy and His being the Creator of everything. "Do not think about Allah," said Imam `Ali, "rather, think about what Allah has created, for thinking about Allah only increases one's bewilderment."
(Knowing Allah)

This and other principles of the faith, in my mind, make it easy for orthodox adherents to be lulled into group think, without the guidance of the Spirit to confirm the correct course of action.  In my opinion (admittedly this is 100% opinion), I think that Gog (the army), and Magog (the leader of the army), will likely extend from a branch of Islam.  While various traditional Christian dogmas also fight against knowing who God is, it is not to the same extent or in the same way.  In the restored gospel, we know that He is an exalted Man, with a specific path for His children.

Anyway, just one person's opinion; being the only (afaik) member of the forum with a very direct connection to Islamic family, I suppose I felt somewhat compelled to offer some of my thoughts.

All that said, I love my family, and I absolutely love many middle-eastern dishes!  I always look forward to seeing my dad, and the amazingly delicious food is just tops it all off.  My dad is, at times, very religiously argumentative with me and my sister, though; he likes to argue doctrine, but consistently fails to see that there is absolutely 0 chance of ever converting me to Islam.  He and I are both debaters though, so, while annoying, I sometimes enjoy the back and forth; at the very least it gives me greater perspective and understanding of my dad.

As far as the original thread topic is concerned, I disagree with any law like that, but I would support the right of a business owner to dictate the style of dress they are comfortable with in their own private establishment.

Edited June 2, 2018 by person0

[pwrfrk]

Pardon me, but as much as we may welcome them into our communities, they still need to adapt.  If I immigrated to Saudi, I would have to learn to accept their culture into my life and become part of the community.  Likewise here.  Which means, sadly, changing part of their life. 

In college a couple years ago I encountered a muslim kid that was talking about how it's ok to rape women.  After all, that's how young men get laid, where he's from.  No, that's not how we do it here.  Here doing that gets people either in serious trouble or in seriously  bad shape in the ER.  Then he asked about livestock.  Sheep & goats.  My boss runs sheep.  ANd if my boss catches anyone pursuing a relationship with his stock, man that's a really bad idea.

But you see, the kids don't get that.  They come here and expect to be able to do everything here they do there.  I already stood up, twice, between the Islamic kids and the local high schoolers that wanted to hurt them.  They look at it as, you come here as guests.  We may be your hosts and you may not like us , but you will respect us and our space as your hosts.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, pwrfrk said:

Pardon me, but as much as we may welcome them into our communities, they still need to adapt.  If I immigrated to Saudi, I would have to learn to accept their culture into my life and become part of the community.  Likewise here.  Which means, sadly, changing part of their life. 

The difference being that a vitally important part of our culture is the freedoms of religion, of speech, and (by extension) of expression. Banning the burqa is essentially equivalent to banning flag-burning.

[anatess2]

On 7/17/2018 at 5:57 PM, Vort said:

The difference being that a vitally important part of our culture is the freedoms of religion, of speech, and (by extension) of expression. Banning the burqa is essentially equivalent to banning flag-burning.

In my town here in the Philippines, full mask motorcycle helmets are banned.  Tinted car windows are banned.  Burqas are banned.  This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with terrorists blowing people up.

Edited July 18, 2018 by anatess2

[Guest MormonGator]

On 7/17/2018 at 5:57 PM, Vort said:

The difference being that a vitally important part of our culture is the freedoms of religion, of speech, and (by extension) of expression. Banning the burqa is essentially equivalent to banning flag-burning.

If it was up to me, I'd throw flag burners into jail. But it's not up to me, so I think it should be legal. 

Edited July 18, 2018 by MormonGator

[Vort]

42 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

If it was up to me, I'd throw flag burners into jail. But it's not up to me, so I think it should be legal. 

Flag-burning is patently offensive, roughly equivalent to calling a black person the "n-word". But free speech applies to patently offensive things. Free speech was established primarily to allow political conversation without reprisal, and flag-burning is nothing if not a political statement.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

In my town here in the Philippines, full mask motorcycle helmets are banned.  Tinted car windows are banned.  Burqas are banned.  This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with terrorists blowing people up.

John Adams said, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." Benjamin Franklin is said to have responded to a woman asking whether we had a monarchy or a republic,  "A republic, madam -- if you can keep it."

If the people are not moral (which IMO almost demands being religious), they will not be able to keep the republic, and basic, God-given freedoms will fall by the wayside as citizens struggle to impose order -- any order -- on the anarchy that threatens the very existence of society.

[Guest MormonGator]

9 minutes ago, Vort said:

Flag-burning is patently offensive, roughly equivalent to calling a black person the "n-word". But free speech applies to patently offensive things. Free speech was established primarily to allow political conversation without reprisal, and flag-burning is nothing if not a political statement.

Yup, we agree 100%

[anatess2]

14 hours ago, Vort said:

John Adams said, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." Benjamin Franklin is said to have responded to a woman asking whether we had a monarchy or a republic,  "A republic, madam -- if you can keep it."

If the people are not moral (which IMO almost demands being religious), they will not be able to keep the republic, and basic, God-given freedoms will fall by the wayside as citizens struggle to impose order -- any order -- on the anarchy that threatens the very existence of society.

So, just to give you some perspective and so you can appreciate the greatness of the USA even more... I went to this place in southern Philippines not too far from that town that was overtaken by ISIS.  I went there to visit my good friend who passed away last year.  I went to the cemetery and right next to his grave were 4 graves covered in handmade signs, "We want JUSTICE!".  Come to find out, the 4 graves were the Mayor, his wife, and his 2 siblings killed earlier this year.  They've been cooking and distributing cocaine and heroine from the City Hall with the help of the sheriff department.  President Duterte replaced the Sheriff and he ended up raiding the Mayor's house.  The Mayor, instead of surrendering, engaged in a shoot-out against the Sheriff with most of the police force joining the Mayor's side.  That didn't end well for them.  Of course, the Philippine version of MSM plastered Extra Judicial Killings and filed complaints to the UN Human Rights Commission.  The people, on the other hand, celebrated on the streets like it was Fiesta week. 

Anyway, when I got off the boat to visit the island, the first thing visitors notice is the ginormous poster of about 80 faces that are wanted by the police - all involved in insurgencies all around the island trying to take back their "power" through terrorist activities.  Almost half the women on the poster wore hijabs.  Of course, there's no point in issuing IDs if the woman refuses to take a picture without her burqa on.  And it's also useless to have a wanted poster when the people are walking around town wearing burqas.

With the rising violent activities among European immigrants... striking that balance between religious freedom and law and order is a tough circus act.  The LDS Church is pretty good at striking this balance.

[pwrfrk]

Here's some of that religion stuff from India....

"Girl With Disability Gang-Raped By 22 Men For 7 Months In India, Police Say" -- https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/disabled-girl-repeatedly-gang-raped-by-22-men-in-india_us_5b4f33b6e4b0b15aba8a483d

[anatess2]

3 hours ago, pwrfrk said:

Here's some of that religion stuff from India....

"Girl With Disability Gang-Raped By 22 Men For 7 Months In India, Police Say" -- https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/disabled-girl-repeatedly-gang-raped-by-22-men-in-india_us_5b4f33b6e4b0b15aba8a483d

You don't have to go far out East to India.  You got this going on all over London which is not being covered by news as the government put a media-ban on the trials.  Tommy Robinson is still in jail for standing on the street outside the courthouse as dozens of men were being tried for child sex grooming to bring light into the matter.

[Vort]

4 hours ago, pwrfrk said:

Here's some of that religion stuff from India....

"Girl With Disability Gang-Raped By 22 Men For 7 Months In India, Police Say" -- https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/disabled-girl-repeatedly-gang-raped-by-22-men-in-india_us_5b4f33b6e4b0b15aba8a483d

In what sense is this "that religion stuff"?

[pwrfrk]

They're called Muslims, Vort.

Not all Muslims do that, but there's those that do. And it's stuff like that that politicians use to push for more regulation.  Like banning Burqas.

 

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, pwrfrk said:

They're called Muslims, Vort.

Not all Muslims do that, but there's those that do. And it's stuff like that that politicians use to push for more regulation.  Like banning Burqas.

 

This is not true.  Banning the burqa is not a religious discriminatory law in the same manner that a travel ban on 5 predominantly muslim countries is not religiously discriminatory.  Rather, it is a practical law.  It is completely irrelevant to the issue of banning garments as garments do not pose practical impediments to society. 

It's not just muslims that are banned from wearing face-covering garments - everybody is banned from it as well even if the ones causing the damage is not muslim.  In the Philippines, terrorism is engaged by many factions, only one of which are muslim extremists.  We have communists, drug cartels, muslims, political rebels, other criminals trying to hide behind face covers - burqas or full-masked motorcycle helmets or tinted car windows.  If Catholic monks were to go out in public, they'd be banned from their full face cover attire as well - but they are not allowed to go out in public, or even be seen by the public, so they can wear their full face covered attire all they want.

Edited July 20, 2018 by anatess2

[Just_A_Guy]

2 hours ago, pwrfrk said:

They're called Muslims, Vort.

I don’t see anything in the article saying the perps are Muslims; and the vast majority of that country are of the Hindu belief.

[Vort]

2 hours ago, pwrfrk said:

They're called Muslims, Vort.

Not all Muslims do that, but there's those that do. And it's stuff like that that politicians use to push for more regulation.  Like banning Burqas.

Ah. Muslims believe in gang-rape. Or maybe that's just you.

You're on a rare roll of unparalleled stupid comments. Don't stop your streak now.

[pwrfrk]

Thank you Vort.  Now, read what I wrote.  Are the perps Muslim?  In discussion from another group, yes.  Reliable sources, professional (more so than I ever will be), but they could be wrong.  But....

I said that not all Muslims do that.  You missed that part.  You, Anatess and Justaguy.  And that IS a reason I was given when I discussed similar proposed legislation here in the US.

I never said it is the reason for the Burqa Ban...I never said the perps are Muslim.

But my view of three particular people in MormonHub just went right down the toilet.
 

[Traveler]

On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 6:24 PM, Overwatch said:

not really worried they'll go after anyone else but hey, Hitler started with the handicapped and homosexuals before targeting Jews. At least I think that was the order

 

Actually the Nazis first targeted their political opposition.  It was the brain child of Joseph Goebbels to create violence at opposition events and then to blame the violence on them.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 2:16 PM, pwrfrk said:

Pardon me, but as much as we may welcome them into our communities, they still need to adapt.  If I immigrated to Saudi, I would have to learn to accept their culture into my life and become part of the community.  Likewise here.  Which means, sadly, changing part of their life. 

In college a couple years ago I encountered a muslim kid that was talking about how it's ok to rape women.  After all, that's how young men get laid, where he's from.  No, that's not how we do it here.  Here doing that gets people either in serious trouble or in seriously  bad shape in the ER.  Then he asked about livestock.  Sheep & goats.  My boss runs sheep.  ANd if my boss catches anyone pursuing a relationship with his stock, man that's a really bad idea.

But you see, the kids don't get that.  They come here and expect to be able to do everything here they do there.  I already stood up, twice, between the Islamic kids and the local high schoolers that wanted to hurt them.  They look at it as, you come here as guests.  We may be your hosts and you may not like us , but you will respect us and our space as your hosts.

The greatest single problem with Muslims and western culture is as simple as simple interest  verses compound interest.  To a devout Muslim - compound interest is the #1 sign of Satanic control over a society.  Kind of like secret combinations to Mormons.  As long as our western economy is fueled by compound interest rates there will be a problem.  We would be wise and it would help the economy to move away from compound interest schemes - this is the #1 cause of the richest getting richer and the poor getting poorer - despite the stupid rhetoric  of the Democrats and the hidden greed of the Republicans.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 3:57 PM, Vort said:

The difference being that a vitally important part of our culture is the freedoms of religion, of speech, and (by extension) of expression. Banning the burqa is essentially equivalent to banning flag-burning.

 

There is almost a hidden truth to what you are saying.  The wearing of a burqa is considered a personal choice and not really Islamic doctrine.  The one interesting aspect is that the wearing of a burqa is more often the personal choice of the men in Islam than the women.  This makes the whole argument kind of weird when personal freedoms (including personal freedom of religion and religious beliefs) and liberties are argued.

 

The Traveler

[Guest MormonGator]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

This makes the whole argument kind of weird when personal freedoms (including personal freedom of religion and religious beliefs) and liberties are argued.

Not really. A government banning anything means personal freedoms are being restricted in some way.