Fether

Mormon and gay. Where are we going?

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Whenever the church has interactions with the LGBTQ+ community, it stirs a series of thoughts and questions.

What is the ultimate vision? Obviously it is rooted in charity and acceptance but not quite reaching into adoption of standards. Do we see some day in the future where homosexual couples are freely marrying each other outside of the church yet attending church faithfully? Even holding “minor” callings like a Sunday school teacher? 

Will the LGBTQ community ever stop seeing the church as a religion of bigotry if We never change our view of marriage, but still put as much efforts into strengthening our ties with them?

Does anyone believe that one day the church will allow homosexuals to receive temple recommends?? I definitely don’t.

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I think the over all vision is for the church members to treat the LGBTQ group just like any other group of sinners.  For example we are against Fornication and Adultery.  But we do not want them dead, scorned, casted out, denied basic civil services (like housing and food) etc.. and we do this while all the time holding our standard that it is wrong and subject to church discipline and restrictions.

Sadly there seems to be elements for polarization on both sides.  One group wanting them effectively destroyed, and the other wanting the lifestyle to be embraced and pronounced good by all

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What is the ultimate vision?

The ultimate vision hasn't changed, and that is to draw all people unto Christ. To show love and respect for all, which doesn't mean we agree with or accept (the tolerance trap) some decisions.

Do we see some day in the future where homosexual couples are freely marrying each other outside of the church yet attending church faithfully? Even holding “minor” callings like a Sunday school teacher? 

Yes regarding church attendance, homosexual couples (even married couples) are already able to attend Church faithfully if they choose to do so.

No (Sunday school teacher isn't a minor calling); however, there are other assignments or callings where I could see allowance. Non-members are able to be called to different callings right now, or even receive invitations to volunteer and serve in specific capacities. Although, there might be specific restrictions subject to the stake or ward they are living in.

Will the LGBTQ community ever stop seeing the church as a religion of bigotry if We never change our view of marriage, but still put as much efforts into strengthening our ties with them?

The community as a whole -- no. Individuals, yes. The community will not be satisfied until their decision is no longer seen as "sin."

Does anyone believe that one day the church will allow homosexuals to receive temple recommends?

No, it would be in a state of apostasy if so, and according to current prophecy regarding the Church never falling away only strengthens this. A caveat though, we are talking about practicing homosexuals not those that identify as homosexual. Those who identify as homosexual can already receive a temple recommend if they are honoring the elements required to obtain a temple recommend.

Edited by Anddenex

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For obvious reasons, I can't speak to the relations between people with Same-Sex Attraction, Gender Dysphoria, etc., and the LDS Church, but, like @Anddenex mentioned, it's a significant point to differentiate between inclination and action... Someone can be tortured by thoughts and inclinations, because of temptation or biology (or both), and not give into them. They're not inherently filthy or tainted or anything like that. It's not sinful to be afflicted with temptations; it's only sinful to act on these temptations. People who have trouble with same-sex attractions or Gender Dysphoria are without doubt just as loved by God, designed by Him out of love for love; they've just received a special cross to bear.

As the Catechism says: “The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.”  (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2358) - Courage FAQs

I don't know what the LDS Church will settle on, but I wanted to add the thought that including people with SSA and Gender Dysphoria does not necessarily mean a compromise on moral values. Obviously, it's not right to pretend the actual acts are all right, because they're objectively wrong, and injurious to God and the people involved. But, a person is not the faults they've fallen into, and God is always waiting for them to come to Him.

One of the problems is that secular society presses for things like SSA to become not just an aspect of a person's reality, but their entire identity. Someone isn't thought of as a person with same sex-attraction, they're a homosexual. But it's important to keep in mind that they are first and foremost a person, separate from temptations and faults, which are extraneous parts of their histories, not all they are.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on the matter. ☺️ Have a restful Sunday!

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14 hours ago, Fether said:

Whenever the church has interactions with the LGBTQ+ community, it stirs a series of thoughts and questions.

What is the ultimate vision? Obviously it is rooted in charity and acceptance but not quite reaching into adoption of standards. Do we see some day in the future where homosexual couples are freely marrying each other outside of the church yet attending church faithfully? Even holding “minor” callings like a Sunday school teacher? 

Will the LGBTQ community ever stop seeing the church as a religion of bigotry if We never change our view of marriage, but still put as much efforts into strengthening our ties with them?

Does anyone believe that one day the church will allow homosexuals to receive temple recommends?? I definitely don’t.

First of all, the Church has always admonished parents to love their children in the same context as scriptures states, "husbands love your wives, even as Jesus Christ, loved the Church and gave his life for it". (Hope I quoted it correctly). I have a Gay daughter, and would be willing to give my life for her, or suffer what punishments due her, as God did for me and gave all, I would do the same. Tomorrow all of my family will be in Church, including my daughter, where she has never been badly received, as well as her "wife". Tomorrow, my youngest granddaughter will be blessed, which is why we will all will be there. 

In addtion, regardless of the Church's position on issues of homosexuality, I am not surprised nor shocked,  on their outreach efforts to the Gay community. Nor am I surprised at a recent contribution to a Gay group in Utah, to help with counseling of young people who may be considering suicied. As each of these matters are an effort to reach out to all who are in need. Such actions by the Church are in keeping with the commandments of God. We are commanded to "love the sinner and hate the sin", (a paraphrase). Every Latter-day Saint, should be forgiving, and quick to come to the aid of any who we may be considering harming themselves. Suicide cuts short a life, and retards the chance for repentance, progression in this life, and the life too come". However all of the efforts of the Church, dis not change the doctrines if a scripture, scripture dating back 5,000 years. So, we all should tread softly in reading too much into recent statements.   

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Thanks @Fether - good topic.

Given enough time, i think yes, they could be integrated fully, even in the Mormon church.  i'd say it's extremely likely, if the strong sense of being a separate community decreases and they are allowed to integrate into the more stable tracks of society.  Honestly, i think this sense of community (and some of the painful behaviors that are often associated) developed because how they were treated made getting into some of these more stable tracks almost impossible.  It's much easier now - and you see a lot of people doing it.  

Though as far as Mormon church integration, i can't imagine this would happen for at least the next several generations.  Still, it's amazing how far the Mormon church has come already.  Just 40 years ago, they were doing electric shock and vomit aversion therapy at BYU.  In 120 years, it's gone from destruction of the homosexuals being the only way to stop homosexual crimes (GQ Cannon, 68th General Conference) to donating money to help those of them who are suicidal to get help.  

For more likely - and i think we have already seen this - is that the Mormon church's will take an increasingly conciliatory tone.  To an extent, it's almost had to.  There are almost too many members that don't accept the narrative that people who are homosexuals are this worthless wave of filth washing over the earth - because there is someone they know personally that is a good and kind person, and also a homosexual.

And i really hope that people don't think homosexuality is that person's entire identity.  My guess is that there are more people you have reasonably close ties with who you *don't* know who are homosexual than people you know who do.  Certainly, for many, it's a very large part of their identity.  But i think the reasons for that are similar to why Jews have a much stronger racial identity than do most other races - because people have been trying to eliminate both of them for a very, very, very long time.  And that kind of experience definitely cements that one aspect of who you are into the forefront of identity - though not because you chose or wanted it to be.

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Please keep in mind that while the church is motivated by love, their issue with the LGBTQIP... community has nothing to do with love and everything to do with sexual behavior. Too many people these days have bought the lie, promoted by the peddlers of sexual perversion, that it is all about love, and this so as to gain acceptance and eventual celebration and encouragement of the aberrant sexual behaviors.

So, perhaps the better way of asking the question is, will the church eventually make moral, and even grant ritual encouragement for sexual behaviors that are currently viewed as a mockery of divinely instituted procreative powers, as well as countenance the most radical forms of sexual mutilation, and the like?

To do so would run contrary to the very essence of love at the core of the gospel, particularly given the not insubstantial ills (spiritual and physical and psychological) caused by the aberrant sexual behaviors. It would take rejecting the proven belief that wickedness never was happiness.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

Edited by wenglund

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On 7/14/2018 at 10:52 PM, lostinwater said:

And i really hope that people don't think homosexuality is that person's entire identity.  My guess is that there are more people you have reasonably close ties with who you *don't* know who are homosexual than people you know who do.  Certainly, for many, it's a very large part of their identity.  But i think the reasons for that are similar to why Jews have a much stronger racial identity than do most other races - because people have been trying to eliminate both of them for a very, very, very long time.  And that kind of experience definitely cements that one aspect of who you are into the forefront of identity - though not because you chose or wanted it to be.

This is a really good point.  Thanks for sharing.   :) 

Edited by LiterateParakeet

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On 7/14/2018 at 11:40 AM, Fether said:

Whenever the church has interactions with the LGBTQ+ community, it stirs a series of thoughts and questions.

What is the ultimate vision? Obviously it is rooted in charity and acceptance but not quite reaching into adoption of standards. Do we see some day in the future where homosexual couples are freely marrying each other outside of the church yet attending church faithfully? Even holding “minor” callings like a Sunday school teacher? 

Will the LGBTQ community ever stop seeing the church as a religion of bigotry if We never change our view of marriage, but still put as much efforts into strengthening our ties with them?

Does anyone believe that one day the church will allow homosexuals to receive temple recommends?? I definitely don’t.

God's commandments on marriage are eternal and not only for this life.

It's hard to figure out how other groups of people will see the Church hence forth. What we are actually doing is to help and strenght our members who, somehow, may be having struggles regarding same sex attraction.

A person can feel sexual attraction for another person of the same sex and still have a temple recommend. 

Edited by Edspringer

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It is said that if gays just stay celibate throughout this life then all will be well with them in the next life because they won’t have that attraction any more but we are also taught that the same spirit that possesses our body in this life will have power to posses it in the next life.  If same sex attraction is merely a physical thing then it would leave them when they die. If it is part of the spirit then it would remain a part of them after this life. If gays will lose the desire to be with someone of the same sex after this life would we not also lose our desire to be with our spouse after this life? If love and desire for a spouse is forever for heterosexual couples would it not be the same for homosexual couples?

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17 hours ago, BJ64 said:

Here is an interesting essay on this topic. 

https://mormonlgbtquestions.com/

@BJ64

This is absolutely amazing.  Saying thank-you doesn't even come close to being adequate. 

This article only talks about LGBT, but i feel it applies to biologically intersexed people also.  

Seriously though, this is required reading.  

Edited by lostinwater

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2 hours ago, lostinwater said:

@BJ64

This is absolutely amazing.  Saying thank-you doesn't even come close to being adequate. 

This article only talks about LGBT, but i feel it applies to biologically intersexed people also.  

Seriously though, this is required reading.  

 I passed your thanks and your comment to the author in an email. 

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5 hours ago, BJ64 said:

It is said that if gays just stay celibate throughout this life then all will be well with them in the next life because. . .

This is not really true as written.  It is better for a homosexual to stay celibate than to act on homosexual impulses, however, if they have a legitimate opportunity to marry someone (of the opposite sex) that they truly love, and both parties agree to work through the homosexuality issue together, then there is no reason they should not marry in this life and go to the temple and be sealed.

Quote

. . . they won’t have that attraction any more but we are also taught that the same spirit that possesses our body in this life will have power to posses it in the next life. If same sex attraction is merely a physical thing then it would leave them when they die. If it is part of the spirit then it would remain a part of them after this life.

Same sex attraction is an experience of the 'natural man'.  The idea of considering it in the light of physical/spiritual is irrelevant so long as one recognizes it is an aspect of the natural man.  A homosexual who dies will not all of a sudden become cleansed of their homosexual desires, just as an alcoholic who dies will not become cleansed of their affinity for alcohol.  When one dies, they will carry with them the same appetites and desires, and the same attitudes.  It is the purifying power of the Spirit of God, made available to us because of the Atonement of Christ that will continue the cleansing process to make us perfect and enable us to fully suppress the natural man.  Through this process homosexual desires can be cleansed, and will be for those who choose Christ.

5 hours ago, BJ64 said:

If gays will lose the desire to be with someone of the same sex after this life would we not also lose our desire to be with our spouse after this life? If love and desire for a spouse is forever for heterosexual couples would it not be the same for homosexual couples?

The carnal and fallen nature of our desires will be overcome, what will be left will be pure love for one another, and the desire to express that pure love appropriately, according to the commandments of God.  Love and sexuality are not the same thing, however, in our carnal state, and especially in our modern society, it is not always easy to remember this.  Homosexuals will not lose anything, they will overcome, be cleansed, and become perfect, there is a big difference.

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6 minutes ago, person0 said:

if they have a legitimate opportunity to marry someone (of the opposite sex) that they truly love, and both parties agree to work through the homosexuality issue together, then there is no reason they should not marry in this life and go to the temple and be seale

Has anyone heard of any situation like this that was successful? 

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I do not intend to make this post long.  Rather I will only touch on highlights.   From time to time throughout history truth, knowledge and enlightenment have taken a back seat to political expediency.   Such things have brought about social change but never have such changes been beneficial in the long run.  In fact there seems to be an evolution of intellectualism within social structures that has eventually lead to the complete collapse of every civilization that once grew and prospered on this planet – because truth and understanding is ignored in favor of political expediency.

It is my personal observation and opinion that this is the present course of the gender redefinition movement.  It can be hard to come across unfiltered and unaltered raw scientific data.  In addition there have been a lot of “behavioral studies” that currently are being discarded.  Studies by Pavlov, Skinner and even the notorious Joseph Goebbels.   Please allow me to summarize.   Cognitive behaviors in intelligent species are learned or acquired.  The more intelligent the species – the more diverse the behavior and the more the behavior is learned or acquired – that is why the behavior is diverse – because it is learned or acquired.

For some reason the intelligent accusation or learning of certain behaviors – especially sexual behaviors is denied but more than denied – it is politically forbidden and even severely punished.  It is the false enforcement or denial of science that I believe to be the worst kind politics and the advanced degradation of any society.  In the debate between conservative religious ideologies and the gender redefinition movement – there is a lot of emotion and lack of adherence to truth and valid research – let alone logic – on both sides. 

I do not see a resolution to any current direction.  The LDS church relies on revelation – I am not sure those that want to see things in the church change in this matter; understand this principle of revelation very well.  As to the community that supports gender redefinition – there is an animus that prevents any unbiased intervention.  I have been given the label homophobe; just for suggesting that there is scientific evidence that an intelligent species can learn and acquire any cognitive behavior.   I have been accused of denying people “happiness”.  I have not been presented with any scientific (empirical) evidence that any cognitive behavior in an intelligent species is exclusively programmed at conception of an individual and cannot ever be intelligently controlled and over ridden.  If truth makes one side in a discussion unhappy – what possibility is there for any common ground based on truth and understanding?

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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1 minute ago, Fether said:

Has anyone heard of any situation like this that was successful? 

You took the words right out of my mouth. People do it, but the divorce rate is about 70% So, no I don't think so.  It takes a tremendous toll on both spouses.  I wouldn't recommend it.

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1 minute ago, LiterateParakeet said:

You took the words right out of my mouth. People do it, but the divorce rate is about 70% So, no I don't think so.  It takes a tremendous toll on both spouses.  I wouldn't recommend it.

I thought it would be much much higher. 

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2 minutes ago, Fether said:

Has anyone heard of any situation like this that was successful? 

I have not read them all through but:

https://ldsvoicesofhope.org/voices/kim-lance/

https://ldsvoicesofhope.org/voices/jordan-kylie/

and more available here:

https://ldsvoicesofhope.org/meet-the-voices/

there is a tab for Married couples stories that will filter them down.

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2 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Honestly, I'm surprised too.  I know a few couples that have done it, and it was heart break for all of them.  

I don't understand it. How could you be married to someone you aren't sexually attracted to? Not making a joke, not being immature. Honestly confused by it. 

How could anyone think that would work or be healthy for either party? 

Edited by MormonGator

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

I don't understand it. How could you be married to someone you aren't sexually attracted to? Not making a joke, not being immature. Honestly confused by it. 

How could anyone think that would work or be healthy for either party? 

You are right.  It's like marrying your brother or sister---you love them dearly but it's not the same kind of love you have for a spouse...and I'm not only referring to sex.  It is more complicated than that.  Josh and Lolly explain it well here:

http://joshweed.com/2018/01/turning-unicorn-bat-post-announce-end-marriage/

 

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

I don't understand it. How could you be married to someone you aren't sexually attracted to? Not making a joke, not being immature. Honestly confused by it. 

I presume this was a fairly common occurrence when arranged marriages where all the rage.  Not all heterosexuals are attracted to all members of the opposite sex.

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Just now, person0 said:

I presume this was a fairly common occurrence when arranged marriages where all the rage.  Not all heterosexuals are attracted to all members of the opposite sex.

No, but there is a world of difference between not being attracted to all members of the opposite sex and not being attracted to anyone of the opposite sex. 

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