Seeking productive feedback: letter dealing with misogyny in Primary


Jane_Doe
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25 minutes ago, Manners Matter said:

You may want to revisit the handbook. Things are outlined a certain way for a reason.

Yes, we have a Primary handbook.  And a Scouts handbook.  And we follow both to the best of our ability as the budget allows.

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8 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

My idea was to use the letter for the starter to a conversation.  I'm MUCH better in writing.  This way I can get things out we can actually have a conversation, rather than chocking up on my words and never getting anywhere.  

You can't have a productive conversation when you start with a misgyny accusation.  That's a very heavy and serious accusation.

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2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

You can't have a productive conversation when you start with a misgyny accusation.  That's a very heavy and serious accusation.

I already acknowledged that that's not the best word and how I'm looking for a better one, asking for suggestions. 

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3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

It's damaging for teaching Christ's Truths to our children.  There's also a lot of it that can be pretty easily improved even before the new program comes out. 

Eh, they (boys) need a more structured and reward based program, otherwise they would just play basketball every week.  Girls/women being the superior sex are able to progress without the structure that is needed for young men. 

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Just now, omegaseamaster75 said:

Eh, they (boys) need a more structured and reward based program, otherwise they would just play basketball every week.  Girls/women being the superior sex are able to progress without the structure that is needed for young men. 

I passionately disagree with you on every point here, but don't want to derail my own thread.

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I've just read through the thread, and I'm not sure I have anything really useful to add to the excellent advice given by NT, zil, and others. Let's see if I can find something worthwhile.

First: What you are describing is not misogyny. The problem with using a ten-pound word to describe a five-ounce problem is that people tend to get very defensive. It's like a woman crying "Rape!" when a man brushes against her rear end, or an employee claiming a hostile work environment because he got brusque negative feedback on a project he screwed up. The bishop is not likely to feel sympathetic when he is being accused of misogyny, either directly or by implication, just because things are not completely equitable.

And things are not completely equitable. What you may not realize is how that inequity is so often in your (female) favor. I could easily come up with half a dozen examples about how the Church treats women better than men. Does this mean the Church likes women better? I don't think it does. Rather, as NT has pointed out, it means that women and men (and girls and boys) are different. They have different needs, they react differently, and often they need different motivations.

I will add my voice to NT's about the general idea that "girls start out easy and get hard, boys start out hard and get easy". In my own experience, my daughter was much less aggressive (or adventuresome, or active, or whatever adjective you want to use) than her brothers at every age in childhood. Sure, she was a little bit of a crybaby, and when confronted with a problem tended to wait for help rather than do something or go onto something else. But we were not constantly peeling her off the furniture or telling her not to throw stuff or whatever. The following is funny, but is actually surprisingly true:

The weapons basket really nails it.

But at about age 13, life changed. The boys? Yeah, they had some issues, no doubt. Some real mountains to climb. It was hard. My daughter? Non-stop drama, from morning until night. Sometimes well into the night, until the next morning. Her life was ruined. Tears, sobbing, unfriendliness, wanting to leave home. Bizarre. In comparison, my boys' adolescent experiences were a walk in the park. I bet we spent as much time and energy on our daughter's teen life traumas as we did for all our sons combined.

Girls need girl things. Boys need boy things. And for the past couple of generations, the Church has tried to train up young men in conjunction with the Scouting program, which cost a lot of money. What parent in the Church could possibly object? Brother and Sister Tevye's family of five daughters, you say? Not likely. Whom do you suppose those girls are going to marry when they grow up? They will likely marry the grown-up version of the boys who went on Scouting trips. If Scouting has done its job, everyone is much better off. If Brother and Sister Tevye are wise, they will realize this, and will fully support the disparity in spending. Because the boys need it more than the girls. Worry not; the girls will, in many ways, spend the rest of their lives enjoying the fruits of their husbands' teenage experiences and the growth those young men experienced.

Such inequities do not always come from the differences in need, of course. And those disparities don't always originate with the swinish male chauvinists in the bishopric, either. For example, my daughter is naturally sort of a girly girl. But being the lone sister with a bunch of brothers, she has inexorably been a bit of a tomboy, because what other choice did she have? She saw her brothers go on campouts all the time, so when she became the Laurels president, she decided that the girls would go on a campout, too, at nearby Church-owned Ensign Ranch. But they didn't go. Why not? Was it the mean old misogynistic bishopric that shot her down? No, actually, it was her YW leader -- a lovely young mother who had a good heart and sincerely wanted to help the girls. This leader balked at the suggestion, then finally came up with the compromise that they could camp overnight -- in the YW presidency first counselor's suburban back yard.

Um...no.

There are expectations all around. One of the YW president's expectations was that she would never have to go hiking or camping with the girls. Because who does that? It was simply way outside her comfort zone. You can call this "institutional misogyny" if you want, but if you do, you will be widely missing the mark.

I would advise you never, ever to try to "help" the girls by pulling down the boys. That is wrong on every level. So the boys are having a blue and gold banquet and getting recognition? Good for them! Why not let the girls have a dinner party and give them recognition, as well? The only "unfairness" is in the adult leader's failure of imagination, or their insistence that all sexual parity be mandated at the ward leadership level. We should be above such pettiness.

Edited by Vort
Removing first draft stuff that should not have been left in
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6 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

It's damaging for teaching Christ's Truths to our children.  There's also a lot of it that can be pretty easily improved even before the new program comes out. 

I understand your sentiment and I acknowledge there are problems in your Primary program that needs to be corrected.

I just want to put this out there as a "general guideline".  Just make sure that any feelings you may have on the primary girls versus primary boys activities stem from good gospel principles and not worldly principles such as... oh, maybe Envy or this new-fangled Gender Equality TM, etc. etc.

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Just now, anatess2 said:

I understand your sentiment and I acknowledge there are problems in your Primary program that needs to be corrected.

I just want to put this out there as a "general guideline".  Just make sure that any feelings you may have on the primary girls versus primary boys activities stem from good gospel principles and not worldly principles such as... oh, maybe Envy or this new-fangled Gender Equality TM, etc. etc.

As I said earlier, one of the things I actually love about the church and the Gospel is that I am equally valued as a woman.  Not some genderless "it" (gag) or man-wanna-be (gag again).  

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

 

Girls need girl things. Boys need boy things. 

What if you are a boy/girl who doesn't like traditional "boy/girl" things? 

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1 minute ago, NeuroTypical said:

They make you moderator at mormonhub.com, so they can keep an eye on you.

Image result for my little pony

lol! I make my own soap, a traditionally "feminine" interest. Whenever I go to Hobby Lobby to get soaping supplies, I post on FB "I love being the only heterosexual married man at Hobby Lobby! Keep up with the weird stares!" I do the same thing with musicals. "I'm married to a woman and I love musicals. I'm the 1/10th of 1%"

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My wife used to do knitting groups.  Lots of women love getting together to knit & talk & stuff.  On one occasion there was an Iraqi war vet dude there, jumping into the experience as suggested treatment for his PTSD.  From what my wife reports, he was a 100% fully assimilated member in good standing.

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Just now, NeuroTypical said:

My wife used to do knitting groups.  Lots of women love getting together to knit & talk & stuff.  On one occasion there was an Iraqi war vet dude there, jumping into the experience as suggested treatment for his PTSD.  From what my wife reports, he was a 100% fully assimilated member in good standing.

I feel sorry for boys and girls who don't have interests that the rest of their gender does. It must be difficult. Especially if they are told "No, you can't do X/Y because you are a girl/boy." I don't get it.  

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@Jane_Doe your entire concern has already been seen to, discussed and action taken:  New Activity Program for children and youth

Quote

Effective December 31, 2019, “The Church will conclude its relationship as a chartered organization with all Scouting programs around the world,” according to statement from Mormon Newsroom, released Tuesday, May 8.

A new and developing Church activity program for children and youth will “replace all existing activity programs for girls and boys, young women and young men beginning in January 2020,” according to the statement.

“For years, Church leaders have been preparing a new initiative to teach and provide leadership and development opportunities to all children and youth, to support families, and to strengthen youth everywhere as they develop faith in our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ,” the statement noted. “This new approach is intended to help all girls and boys, young women and young men discover their eternal identity, build character and resilience, develop life skills, and fulfill their divine roles as daughters and sons of God.

“The initiative is designed to allow local leaders, families, and even the young people themselves to customize their efforts, while providing service opportunities and activities, fostering healthy relationships, and supporting communities.”

So do you still want to send a letter to the Bishop & Primary regarding this when in 17 months the current status quo will be drastically changed, and changed to what you are now asking for?

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39 minutes ago, Iggy said:

@Jane_Doe your entire concern has already been seen to, discussed and action taken:  New Activity Program for children and youth

So do you still want to send a letter to the Bishop & Primary regarding this when in 17 months the current status quo will be drastically changed, and changed to what you are now asking for?

"I know that in 2020 all of the Primary and Youth programs are getting completely redone to (among other reasons) address these issues at the institutional level and to stress local flexibility to fill local needs.  I am wondering what can be done today though, particularly with culture here and any program flexibility. "

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5 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Unfairness.

I wouldn’t try to label the status quo at all—it immediately puts people on the defensive.  

Rather, I’d say something along the lines of “I want the girls to have as many good experiences as the boys are having, and it’d be easier to do that if both groups were operating on similar budgets”.

Also, dwelling at length about how important women and girls are to you, may inadvertently suggest that you think your bishop doesn’t share these values—again, putting him immediately on the defensive. I don’t think you need to go there.  You know that you and he both want quality programs for the girls as well as the boys.  You know that you both probably agree, in principle, that “fairness” is a good thing.  You know that your ward is strapped for leadership to run its youth programs; and that probably causes him many more sleepless nights than it does you.  Build on those commonalities.

Finally - be willing to help in implementing a solution.  As a new Cub Scout leader, understand that parity in funding will probably mean you will be expected to do more with less.  If you want the girls to have recognition like the boys do, you’re going to get further if you either accommodate them at your own Cub Scout activities or make sure the activity days leadership knows you’re ready to help them build a parallel program.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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1 minute ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I wouldn’t try to label the status quo at all—it immediately puts people on the defensive.  

Rather, I’d say something along the lines of “I want the girls to have as many good experiences as the boys are having, and it’d be easier to do that if both groups were operating on similar budgets”.

Also, dwelling at length about how important women and girls are to you, may inadvertently suggest that you think your bishop doesn’t share these values—again, putting him immediately on the defensive. I don’t think you need to go there.  You know that you and he both want quality programs for the girls as well as the boys.  You know that you both probably agree, in principle, that “fairness” is a good thing.  You know that your ward is strapped for leadership to run its youth programs; and that probably causes him many more sleepless nights than it does you.  Build on those commonalities.

Awesome!  Thank you!

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13 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Hi everyone-

This last week the Primary Presidency asked me to move from running Activity Days to Cub Scouts, and I… frankly I have discovered a deep misogyny in our kids’ programs that profoundly disturbs me.  It’s both on the institutional level, and also on cultural level as I talk to parents in the ward.  I feel like I need to say something, but I want to do it right in terms of who to talk to, words used, tone, etc.  So right now my going plan is to write a letter (draft shown in the next post), bring it to the bishop, and talk to him about it.  

I thought I would run this by the helpful members of the forum, trying to do this right.  Right now my specific areas I'm aiming for are:

- Is this the Bishop the right person to talk to about this?

- I want to be pithy.  Is that achieved below, or are there spots where it be better to include more examples/elboration?

-Productive: I want to be productive in how this bad situation could be improved on a practical/applicable level.  I'm not interested in a whine-fest (been there, done that, sick of it).  

 

Thank you all in advance for your feedback.  

I have read, re-read this and all of the responses. @Jane_Doe did your ward completely do away with Activity Days, or did they release you, call you to Cub Scouts and call another sister to Activity Days?

Why can't you transition the cub scouts into combined activity with the girls early? Your bio says you live in Wyoming - at first I thought you might be in a 3rd world country where women are placed in a caste system by culture. But Wyoming???

No matter where you are living, there is NO reason for you to NOT begin this transition 17 months earlier than the proposed start up date given by the 1st Presidency. Keep yourself updated to the church's announcements through this link   https://www.lds.org/youth/childrenandyouth 

You can follow along with the changes in the Callings - primary

Also have you been attending your ward's Teaching In The Savior's Way Council? If you have, did you bring your concerns to them? If you haven't, plan on attending and bring your concerns to them - THAT is what the Teaching In The Savior's Way Council Meetings are for and why the 1st Presidency brought it about. FYI here is the link to Teaching In The Savior's Way  you can download this to your device.

 

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34 minutes ago, Iggy said:

I have read, re-read this and all of the responses. @Jane_Doe did your ward completely do away with Activity Days, or did they release you, call you to Cub Scouts and call another sister to Activity Days?

They reassigned both me and my co-leader in Activity Days to be part of the 12 leaders over Cub Scouts (for 7 kids).  They did not call anyone for Activity Days (for 12 kids), nor do they have any plans for that but said "hmm... maybe we'll ask one of the other teachers to do that on top of teaching Sundays" 

34 minutes ago, Iggy said:

Why can't you transition the cub scouts into combined activity with the girls early? 

I asked, they said "no, it's really important that the boys focus on earning their badges".

34 minutes ago, Iggy said:

Your bio says you live in Wyoming - at first I thought you might be in a 3rd world country where women are placed in a caste system by culture. But Wyoming???

Yep.  The state that prides themselves in being the first to let women vote. 

34 minutes ago, Iggy said:

No matter where you are living, there is NO reason for you to NOT begin this transition 17 months earlier than the proposed start up date given by the 1st Presidency. Keep yourself updated to the church's announcements through this link   https://www.lds.org/youth/childrenandyouth 

You can follow along with the changes in the Callings - primary

Oh totally- I was estatatric about this and watching it like an eager puppy even before this Scouting thing came up.

34 minutes ago, Iggy said:

Also have you been attending your ward's Teaching In The Savior's Way Council? If you have, did you bring your concerns to them? If you haven't, plan on attending and bring your concerns to them - THAT is what the Teaching In The Savior's Way Council Meetings are for and why the 1st Presidency brought it about. FYI here is the link to Teaching In The Savior's Way  you can download this to your device.

 

I never was invited, nor did it occur to me that I was invited.  In fact, in the two years I taught Activity Days not a single Primary Presidency person ever said a word to me about anything, even when I asked.  In the last week since being called Scouts I've warranted 3 meetings with them and a fourth with the District Scout person (this was all before I was ready to talk about my concerns).  

Anyway, I think I will check that out the next time it comes around for you.  And thank you for the link.

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