Seeking productive feedback: letter dealing with misogyny in Primary


Jane_Doe
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Hi everyone-

This last week the Primary Presidency asked me to move from running Activity Days to Cub Scouts, and I… frankly I have discovered a deep misogyny in our kids’ programs that profoundly disturbs me.  It’s both on the institutional level, and also on cultural level as I talk to parents in the ward.  I feel like I need to say something, but I want to do it right in terms of who to talk to, words used, tone, etc.  So right now my going plan is to write a letter (draft shown in the next post), bring it to the bishop, and talk to him about it.  

I thought I would run this by the helpful members of the forum, trying to do this right.  Right now my specific areas I'm aiming for are:

- Is this the Bishop the right person to talk to about this?

- I want to be pithy.  Is that achieved below, or are there spots where it be better to include more examples/elboration?

-Productive: I want to be productive in how this bad situation could be improved on a practical/applicable level.  I'm not interested in a whine-fest (been there, done that, sick of it).  

 

Thank you all in advance for your feedback.  

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(This the letter draft)

Dear Bishop,

I’m writing you today because my heart is hurting.  Traditionally one of the things I love about the church is how valued I am as a person—and specifically as a woman.  That I am a daughter of God, and don’t have to surrender that or be just like a man in order to be just as valued (the view I often deal with in secular situations).   I grew up in a household of all girls, I love raising my daughter in the church, my husband is a great supportive non-member, and I have truly felt loved/empowered/valued as a woman of God.  

This last week the Primary Presidency asked me to move from running Activity Days to Cub Scouts, and I… frankly I have discovered a deep misogyny in our kids’ programs that profoundly disturbs me.  It’s both on the institutional level, and also on cultural level as I talk to parents in the ward.   I’ve struggled with how to best handle this personally and as a Primary worker. 

 I know that in 2020 all of the Primary and Youth programs are getting completely redone to (among other reasons) address these issues at the institutional level and to stress local flexibility to fill local needs.  I am wondering what can be done today though, particularly with culture here and any program flexibility.  Striving to be productive, I thought of a few suggestion areas:

Recognition: right now the accomplishments of the boys are acknowledged as monthly/bimonthly Pack Dinners attended by their entire families.  Meanwhile the accomplishments of their sisters are completely ignored in all venues.  Could we not likewise acknowledge the girl’s accomplishments in these dinners?  This would teach the boys to acknowledge and respect the work done by the females in their lives, and show the girls that their efforts are likewise valued. 

Leadership: right now the Boy Scout dens are tiny (1-2 boys), even after combing with [the other] ward.   This puts a huge burden on leadership, both in terms of staffing numbers and the effort to plan activities.  Could we not combine dens?  Either with the other wards a mile down the road,  or with our own Wolves/Bears?  This would reduce the leadership burden on all wards involved, and also free up leaders to teach Activity Days (whom now have none because Scouts took them all).

Budget: for the discussion, I am ignoring the mandated Boy Scout costs (badges, uniforms, etc) that we have no control over.  Even excluding those costs, the budget is currently very skewed: with the boys have very elaborate/expensive activities and the girls have very simple activities mostly paid out of the leader’s pockets.  Could we not better address this in terms of the straightening out budget itself, and training all leaders on proper use of the budget? 

 I feel that these suggestions are things we could do today to better teach our kids, all within our mandated framework.  Thank you for your time listening to this, 

-Jane

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8 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

combing

combining

9 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

whom

Just "who".

10 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Could we not better address this in terms of the straightening out budget itself

That is not grammatically correct.  But I'm not sure what you're going for.  "in terms of straightening out the budget itself"?

-- end grammatical bits ---

The length and structure seem fine as-is.

11 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

I have discovered a deep misogyny

Per the dictionary, misogyny is: "dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women."  Stemming from Greek words for "hatred" and "woman".  Are you sure these problems stem from a hatred of women as opposed to something more passive and neglectful?  When I hear misogyny, I think "anger" and "violence" and similar things.  What you describe sounds like passively going along with the status quo (which trend led to significant discrepancy) without ever considering whether it ought to change, and if so, how - in other words, neglect, thoughtlessness.

When I read the intro, I was expecting to learn of men putting women and girls in their place (as they say), belittling language, etc. (because I couldn't imagine physical violence in Primary).  In other words, using this word might be self-defeating, depending on how it's perceived by the reader.

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Yeah, I've encountered misogynists.  I don't think the word applies here.  

My suggestions: Make the letter half as long.  Take out the complaints, just leave the suggestions.  And submit it with a plate of cookies the day of their bishopric meeting.  I am speaking as a former Executive Secretary who have watched various people try to address various issues in various ways.  No really - cookies - consider it a lighthearted insider tip.

Someone trying to improve things for some children is cool.  Someone trying to right wrongs and bring justice to the unjust by making the bishop change how things are done?  Well, no matter how noble your cause or how righteous your perceptions, it simply won't go over as well as someone trying to do good for kids.  

Consider your letter a hopeful gateway to more dialogue, not court papers intended to bring judgment.  A wonderful outcome of this letter would be someone in the bishopric wanting to meet with you to hear more about where you're coming from.  

Remember to listen, as well as speak.  This is a two way thing here.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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Ugh. Where to begin. When I was over cub scouts some years ago, I was also flabbergasted at what was going on. I spent a lot of time researching to make sure I understood and ended up calling SL which was very insightful (I learned that the *parents* are to pay for what the boys earn (except the final one/s)). After that call, I went to the PP and explained what I learned and my ideas to clean things up (start including Faith in God, etc). After I got her blessing, I went to the bishop who also gave me his. Unfortunately, there were parents who liked the false traditions and thought the ward should still cover all the doodads so the bishop walked things back. 😕 Anyway:

Recognition - Our monthly pack mtgs were when we did Core Values/Faith in God. The parents/families were only invited (3-4 times/yr) when the boys actually accomplished things (we also had a very small group and spotty attendance). I figured there's no way boys can finish things that fast and saw no value in burdening the parents with attendance (some serve in ym/yw while the other is home with the younger kids). I don't see how you could acknowledge the girls monthly because they only meet twice and also can't learn/grasp something so quick.

Leadership - I see no problem combining. There's still plenty of time to cover the needed reqs (keep in mind I'm not familiar with the changes made in recent years) and it never hurts for the older boys to review what they supposedly already learned. Combining does have it's drawbacks though. If you're not on the same page as leaders and/or if some are flaky and drop the ball...

Budget - That is up to the PP. Here's what I suggested and it was agreed to (using general #s): $500 (total) - $250 for all of Primary (bdys, bulletin board, baptisms, nursery snacks, supplies...) - $250 split percentage-wise between scouts and AD (if have 5 boys and 5 girls - $125 ea, 5 boys and 10 girls - boys get less). Before I was put in, the previous PP gave a majority of the budget to scouts which I thought was completely wrong. We still did what we needed/wanted to do with a more balanced budget so there was no need to go back to the previous insanity.

Good luck. Personally, I'm thrilled that we're finally cutting ties with the BSA and I will never again have anything to do with that organization after seeing/learning what I have.

Edited by Manners Matter
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One other thing - the handbook itself says that most activities should be simple and have little or no cost so trimming the boys stuff would be better than embellishing things for the girls.

The $ for scouts was to cover the Blue & Gold/Pinewood Derby (we combined these events which was more efficient in various ways). 

Edited by Manners Matter
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7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

@Jane_Doe-can the boys and girls do stuff together? Like a video game night or a movie night? Just asking, not trying to start any drama. 

Great suggestion about combining with the girls! I've heard of other units doing that. As far as the other ideas though...from Elder Ballard Apr 94 Ensign: 

"Every lesson, every meeting, and every activity should be focused on bringing these little ones to Christ."

Edited by Manners Matter
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Already such awesome feedback!  Thank you guys. Addressing a few specific comments--

As to the word "misogyny", can anyone think of a better one?  The only other one I could think of was "sexist" which also didn't seem to fit.  We're not talking active attacking here but... *Jane struggles to find the word*....  for example:  This week was the summer camp for both the YM and YW.  I was talking to one of the mom's (who was the Scout leader I'm replacing) about their plans this week, and this is how the conversation went:

Mom: "I'm so stressed out right now, got to get my 14 year old ready for camp- he leaves an hour after church and is totally not ready." *she runs around frantically packing lunches for him, scribing the different activities he's doing down in the notebook for him, etc.

Me: "Why are they leaving so early?"

Mom: "Oh, the camp is 10 hours away, so they go a long drive."

Me: "Why do far?"

Mom: "Cause none of the camps closer are good enough".  

<skipping ahead 5 minutes>

Mom: "Oh, don't worry about doing 11 year old Ally's lunches- she can do it herself and doesn't leave until Tuesday."

Me: "Where are they going?"

Mom: "Just 15 minutes down the road.  They leave Tuesday afternoon and will be back Friday".

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20 minutes ago, Manners Matter said:

Ugh. Where to begin. When I was over cub scouts some years ago, I was also flabbergasted at what was going on. I spent a lot of time researching to make sure I understood and ended up calling SL which was very insightful (I learned that the *parents* are to pay for what the boys earn (except the final one/s)). After that call, I went to the PP and explained what I learned and my ideas to clean things up (start including Faith in God, etc). After I got her blessing, I went to the bishop who also gave me his. Unfortunately, there were parents who liked the false traditions and thought the ward should still cover all the doodads so the bishop walked things back. 😕 Anyway:

Recognition - Our monthly pack mtgs were when we did Core Values/Faith in God. The parents/families where only invited (3-4 times/yr) when the boys actually accomplished things (we also had a very small group and spotty attendance). I figured there's no way boys can finish things that fast and saw no value in burdening the parents with attendance (some serve in ym/yw while the other is home with the younger kids). I don't see how you could acknowledge the girls monthly because they only meet twice and also can't learn/grasp something so quick.

Leadership - I see no problem combining. There's still plenty of time to cover the needed reqs (keep in mind I'm not familiar with the changes made in recent years) and it never hurts for the older boys to review what they supposedly already learned. Combining does have it's drawbacks though. If you're not on the same page as leaders and/or if some are flaky and drop the ball...

Budget - That is up to the PP. Here's what I suggested and it was agreed to (using general #s): $500 (total) - $250 for all of Primary (bdys, bulletin board, baptisms, supplies...) - $250 split percentage-wise between scouts and AD (if have 5 boys and 5 girls - $125 ea, 5 boys and 10 girls - boys get less). Before I was put in, the previous PP gave a majority of the budget to scouts which I thought was completely wrong. We still did what we needed/wanted to do with a more balanced budget so there was no need to go back to the previous insanity.

Good luck. Personally, I'm thrilled that we're finally cutting ties with the BSA and I will never again have anything to do with that organization after seeing/learning what I have.

I started typing up a list of how bad my ward is about this, and then deleted it- I'm sick of complaining.  But year, it's WAY bad, worse than you're describing here.   Thank you for your suggestions and experiences, it was very helpful.

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I went with solutions to the problems and ready to counter anticipated comments. (ie there's a quote by Hinckley about respecting donations, tithing; there are quotes about the value of girls/women and that we're equal; there are quotes about setting aside false traditions) If you still go the letter route (I wouldn't), you may want to include these so they can see you're just trying to follow counsel. 

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7 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

As to the word "misogyny", can anyone think of a better one?  The only other one I could think of was "sexist" which also didn't seem to fit.  We're not talking active attacking here but... *Jane struggles to find the word*....  

 

Sure - here's a better word: "Different".  Boys and girls are different, have different needs, that get filled in different ways.  And you have strong, strong disagreement with some of the different ways.  You figure there's injustice and inequality and something inherently wrong because group a gets more money than group b, more effort, more attention.  "Different = mysogyny" is basically false on its face.   

Another way to think about it - in my ward before the change, the High Priests get a smaller budget than the Elders Quorum.  The EQ funded many activities, outings, even a ward party or two.  The HPs bought some books or something.  Is that age discrimination?  Inequality pointing to institutional evil of some sort? No and no.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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One piece of advice...  On Recognition of accomplishments.. kids need this (not just boys) my recommendation would be to find ways to pull the girls up... not pull the boys down.    Yes I realize this can be hard because it is also a budget issue to hold such recognitions.

As for word misogyny you can drop it... and simply point to the fact that the Church's BSA program is simply inherently more expensive to run and more intensive then anything made up on the spot, and this results in an imbalance and unfairness between the YM and YW programs.  While the church is addressing it in a major way in the near future you would like to prepping for the changes now.

 

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3 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

 

Sure - here's a better word: "Different".  Boys and girls are different, have different needs, that get filled in different ways.  And you have strong, strong disagreement with some of the different ways.  You figure there's injustice and inequality and something inherently wrong because group a gets more money than group b, more effort, more attention.  "Different = mysogyny" is basically false on its face.   

No really - I once attended a parole hearing for a misogynist.  He was ticked off that his request for parole had been denied, because he hadn't attended any of the required sex offender classes.  It just maddened him to no end that everyone was making his life so hard, when all he did, was do to some girl what people are supposed to do to girls - that's what they're for.  In his mind, he was the victim.  That's misogyny.   Boys getting bigger budgets and more leadership, because at that age, boys are harder and girls are easier, is not misogyny.

Another way to think about it - in my ward before the change, the High Priests get a smaller budget than the Elders Quorum.  The EQ funded many activities, outings, even a ward party or two.  The HPs bought some books or something.  Is that age discrimination?  Inequality pointing to institutional evil of some sort? No and no.

I think it's very hard for both genders at that age. I don't want to compare the misery, but growing up is just really tough for everyone. 

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13 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I think it's very hard for both genders at that age. I don't want to compare the misery, but growing up is just really tough for everyone. 

As MannersMatter points out, there are exceptions.  But the general rule, as explained to me by mommies and daddies and lighthearted memes and my own experience: Girls start out easy and get harder.  Boys start out hard and get easier.    Girls need nurturing, boys need molding.  Girls need support and love, boys need clear boundaries and goals, consistently reinforced or rewarded by structure.  Yes, it's tough for everyone - but in generally different ways. 

We're talking bell curves here.  Of course there are exceptions and overlaps.  Of course both need all of those things. 

Anyway, I'm offering a preview of the sorts of responses Jane_Doe may encounter.  So she can choose to turn it into a battle of wills (which she will lose), or she can seek to expand her influence.    

I was sitting there in a bishopric meeting, as they worked their way through sister whatsername's latest "you should change things and do it my way" letter.  They knew they were being sweet-talked by cookies, but it worked.  They stayed on the topic longer, looked harder for the best answer, sought the spirit for more time, then they otherwise would have.  Because of their love of the children, their respect for the sister, and for the cookies. 

Edited by NeuroTypical
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1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

(This the letter draft)

Dear Bishop,

I’m writing you today because my heart is hurting.  Traditionally one of the things I love about the church is how valued I am as a person—and specifically as a woman.  That I am a daughter of God, and don’t have to surrender that or be just like a man in order to be just as valued (the view I often deal with in secular situations).   I grew up in a household of all girls, I love raising my daughter in the church, my husband is a great supportive non-member, and I have truly felt loved/empowered/valued as a woman of God.  

This last week the Primary Presidency asked me to move from running Activity Days to Cub Scouts, and I… frankly I have discovered a deep misogyny in our kids’ programs that profoundly disturbs me.  It’s both on the institutional level, and also on cultural level as I talk to parents in the ward.   I’ve struggled with how to best handle this personally and as a Primary worker. 

 I know that in 2020 all of the Primary and Youth programs are getting completely redone to (among other reasons) address these issues at the institutional level and to stress local flexibility to fill local needs.  I am wondering what can be done today though, particularly with culture here and any program flexibility.  Striving to be productive, I thought of a few suggestion areas:

Recognition: right now the accomplishments of the boys are acknowledged as monthly/bimonthly Pack Dinners attended by their entire families.  Meanwhile the accomplishments of their sisters are completely ignored in all venues.  Could we not likewise acknowledge the girl’s accomplishments in these dinners?  This would teach the boys to acknowledge and respect the work done by the females in their lives, and show the girls that their efforts are likewise valued. 

Leadership: right now the Boy Scout dens are tiny (1-2 boys), even after combing with [the other] ward.   This puts a huge burden on leadership, both in terms of staffing numbers and the effort to plan activities.  Could we not combine dens?  Either with the other wards a mile down the road,  or with our own Wolves/Bears?  This would reduce the leadership burden on all wards involved, and also free up leaders to teach Activity Days (whom now have none because Scouts took them all).

Budget: for the discussion, I am ignoring the mandated Boy Scout costs (badges, uniforms, etc) that we have no control over.  Even excluding those costs, the budget is currently very skewed: with the boys have very elaborate/expensive activities and the girls have very simple activities mostly paid out of the leader’s pockets.  Could we not better address this in terms of the straightening out budget itself, and training all leaders on proper use of the budget? 

 I feel that these suggestions are things we could do today to better teach our kids, all within our mandated framework.  Thank you for your time listening to this, 

-Jane

This is not a Church-wide issue.  Our ward doesn't have this problem.  I am a Cub Scout Den Leader and yes, the girls want to join in on my activities because... my activities are super fun!  This has nothing to do with "misogyny" and everything to do with... I'm just that good with Cub Scouts (hah hah... no yeah, really, I love cub scouts and I learned everything I do in scouts from raising my 2 boys).  But then the Activity Days got another leader and now my Cubs want to join in on their fun!  They got something similar to a Pack Meeting where they have all the families attending.  We have coordinated between us so that we don't meet in Scouts on the Activity Days family day.  Scouts also hold Pack Meeting on a non-Activity-Day day.  Pack Meeting are only held once a month in our Pack and awards ceremony once every 3 months.

Now, we do have expensive activities in Scouts.  We have day camps, zoo trips, museum tours, etc. etc.  But the money comes right out of my pocket because we don't have the budget.  The person who held the calling before me didn't do those activities because there's no money to do them.  She did much simpler activities.

This still has nothing to do with misogyny.  It's, frankly, such a disgusting accusation.  I'm in the Philippines right now and A/C is a luxury.  ALL the wards and branches I've been to that have A/C only have A/C in the Chapel and the RS room or, if they have only one A/C, then the chapel don't get the A/C, the RS room does.  Is this misandry???  Of course not.  This is a testament to the love the Priesthood has for their Sisters.

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7 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Now, we do have expensive activities in Scouts.  We have day camps, zoo trips, museum tours, etc. etc.  But the money comes right out of my pocket because we don't have the budget.  The person who held the calling before me didn't do those activities because there's no money to do them.  She did much simpler activities.

You may want to revisit the handbook. Things are outlined a certain way for a reason.

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25 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Yeah, I've encountered misogynists.  I don't think the word applies here.  

My suggestions: Make the letter half as long.  Take out the complaints, just leave the suggestions.  And submit it with a plate of cookies the day of their bishopric meeting.  I am speaking as a former Executive Secretary who have watched various people try to address various issues in various ways.  No really - cookies - consider it a lighthearted insider tip.

Someone trying to improve things for some children is cool.  Someone trying to right wrongs and bring justice to the unjust by making the bishop change how things are done?  Well, no matter how noble your cause or how righteous your perceptions, it simply won't go over as well as someone trying to do good for kids.  

Consider your letter a hopeful gateway to more dialogue, not court papers intended to bring judgment.  A wonderful outcome of this letter would be someone in the bishopric wanting to meet with you to hear more about where you're coming from.  

Remember to listen, as well as speak.  This is a two way thing here.

Cookies it is!

I am trying very hard to keep things pithy, complaining minimal, and suggestion foremost.  My idea of going to the Bishop was trying to go someone that actually has the power to change something, rather than just being slave to the system (like me).  Trying to be productive and make positive changes.   

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49 minutes ago, Manners Matter said:

I went with solutions to the problems and ready to counter anticipated comments. (ie there's a quote by Hinckley about respecting donations, tithing; there are quotes about the value of girls/women and that we're equal; there are quotes about setting aside false traditions) If you still go the letter route (I wouldn't), you may want to include these so they can see you're just trying to follow counsel. 

My idea was to use the letter for the starter to a conversation.  I'm MUCH better in writing.  This way I can get things out we can actually have a conversation, rather than chocking up on my words and never getting anywhere.  

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49 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

 

Sure - here's a better word: "Different".  Boys and girls are different, have different needs, that get filled in different ways.  And you have strong, strong disagreement with some of the different ways. 

"Different" doesn't cover what's being done here, which is grossly wrong for both the boys and the girls upbringing. 

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35 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

This is not a Church-wide issue.  Our ward doesn't have this problem.  I am a Cub Scout Den Leader and yes, the girls want to join in on my activities because... my activities are super fun!  This has nothing to do with "misogyny" and everything to do with... I'm just that good with Cub Scouts (hah hah... no yeah, really, I love cub scouts and I learned everything I do in scouts from raising my 2 boys).  But then the Activity Days got another leader and now my Cubs want to join in on their fun!  They got something similar to a Pack Meeting where they have all the families attending.  We have coordinated between us so that we don't meet in Scouts on the Activity Days family day.  Scouts also hold Pack Meeting on a non-Activity-Day day.  Pack Meeting are only held once a month in our Pack and awards ceremony once every 3 months.

Thank you, this is encouraging.  

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