pwrfrk Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 If.... The LDS were to "legalize" homosexuality and make it permissible for homosexuals to get temple recommends and hold positions in branch/ward-stake-area leadership.... Would that make the church more of a True Church, or less of one? And why? How would it affect you and the roles you currently have in church? I ask this because now homosexuality is a big mess, nationally. And back in the 70's race was a big mess as well, and the Church opened its doors to non-whites. What keeps that from happening now? And if it did, what would you do? DennisTate 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 6 minutes ago, pwrfrk said: If.... The LDS were to "legalize" homosexuality and make it permissible for homosexuals to get temple recommends and hold positions in branch/ward-stake-area leadership.... Would that make the church more of a True Church, or less of one? And why? How would it affect you and the roles you currently have in church? I ask this because now homosexuality is a big mess, nationally. And back in the 70's race was a big mess as well, and the Church opened its doors to non-whites. What keeps that from happening now? And if it did, what would you do? Homosexuality and priesthood for blacks are COMPLETELY different subjects. First off, even from the day blacks were barred from the priesthood, apostles were saying things like “the day will come when all will be able to enjoy the blessings of the priesthood”. The apostles and prophets wanted the change but were waiting for God. There are many documentaries and talks that speak of this. The decision to allow the blacks the priesthood had absolutely nothing to do with world wide pressure. Homosexuality would dismantle every doctrine of the LDS church. From the beginning of time homosexuality has been a major sin. Don't compare the two. zil, mirkwood, Anddenex and 4 others 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 (edited) Note: I'm assuming your OP that you are talking about people committing fornication, not people just have homosexual desires. People who have homosexual desires can indeed validly attend the temple, serve wherever God calls them, etc. People who fornicate cannot do so worthily because of their unrepentant sins. So, your question is what happen if God said "fornication is ay-okay?" Not going to happen. It does not make any sense to compare God's repeated command not to fornicate ever (including in scripture and modern revelation) to a temporary earthly policy that never really had any backing (and those things were said at the time). Such arguments a just a redherring. Edited July 20, 2018 by Jane_Doe jerome1232 and Anddenex 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grunt Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 10 minutes ago, pwrfrk said: If.... The LDS were to "legalize" homosexuality and make it permissible for homosexuals to get temple recommends and hold positions in branch/ward-stake-area leadership.... Would that make the church more of a True Church, or less of one? And why? How would it affect you and the roles you currently have in church? I ask this because now homosexuality is a big mess, nationally. And back in the 70's race was a big mess as well, and the Church opened its doors to non-whites. What keeps that from happening now? And if it did, what would you do? In my opinion, this is just a silly "what if". You can play that with any number of things. "What if" the Church announced there was no such thing as the Christ? "What if" martians inhabited Temple Square and declared themselves Prophets? "What if" MormonGator were the next Apostle? None of these scenarios is going to happen. Prophet, maybe. Jane_Doe, Midwest LDS, Anddenex and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwrfrk Posted July 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 9 minutes ago, Fether said: Don't compare the two. I did anyway. 😉 carlimac 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 (edited) In a church guided by revelation, it’s often imprudent to use the word “never” when hypothesizing future revelations or policies. That said, I agree with @Fether that the Church has institutionally entrenched itself on the issue of the eternal and absolute immorality of gay sex, in a way it never did on the issues of priesthood or polygamy. There are a multitude of church policy developments that would theologically easier to reconcile than the scenario you describe—up to and including the re-institution of polygamy, marriage at 14, animal sacrifice, re-definition of “tithing” as twenty percent instead of ten, a new United Order, and the Church seeking recognition as a secular government. So, that being said, let me do a little turnabout, @pwrfrk: What keeps you from waking up tomorrow morning and reading that Russ Nelson has married his fourteen-year-old great-granddaughter’s best friend. What would you do in such a situation? Edited July 20, 2018 by Just_A_Guy zil and Anddenex 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirkwood Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 7 minutes ago, Grunt said: "What if" MormonGator were the next Apostle? Inactivity here I come... Grunt, zil, unixknight and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaseamaster75 Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 22 minutes ago, pwrfrk said: If.... The LDS were to "legalize" homosexuality and make it permissible for homosexuals to get temple recommends and hold positions in branch/ward-stake-area leadership.... Would that make the church more of a True Church, or less of one? And why? How would it affect you and the roles you currently have in church? I ask this because now homosexuality is a big mess, nationally. And back in the 70's race was a big mess as well, and the Church opened its doors to non-whites. What keeps that from happening now? And if it did, what would you do? It's apples and oranges, you can't compare blacks and the priesthood to the LGBTQ community. For fun IF the "Church" decided to allow all rights privileges etc to practicing homosexuals I would either become Jewish or Catholic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwrfrk Posted July 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 I asked that because I want to know. It's not a red herring. Does disagreeing with a question make the question invalid or does it instead hide the answer? Grunt, it is not a silly what if. Let me ask it this way, since it seems to offend people- If the LDS Church were to "legalize" homosexual fornication, and make it permissible for homosexuals to get temple recommends and hold positions in branch/ward-stake-area leadership.... Would that make the church more of a True Church, or less of one? And why? How would it affect you and the roles you currently have in church? I ask this because now homosexuality is a big mess, nationally. And back in the 70's race was a big mess as well, and the Church opened its doors to non-whites. What keeps that from happening now? And if it did, what would you do? Do not be offended by the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grunt Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, pwrfrk said: I asked that because I want to know. It's not a red herring. Does disagreeing with a question make the question invalid or does it instead hide the answer? Grunt, it is not a silly what if. Let me ask it this way, since it seems to offend people- If the LDS Church were to "legalize" homosexual fornication, and make it permissible for homosexuals to get temple recommends and hold positions in branch/ward-stake-area leadership.... Would that make the church more of a True Church, or less of one? And why? How would it affect you and the roles you currently have in church? I ask this because now homosexuality is a big mess, nationally. And back in the 70's race was a big mess as well, and the Church opened its doors to non-whites. What keeps that from happening now? And if it did, what would you do? Do not be offended by the question. It is a silly what if because you're asking "what if the church stopped following God". jerome1232 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwrfrk Posted July 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 15 minutes ago, Grunt said: "What if" the Church announced there was no such thing as the Christ? "What if" martians inhabited Temple Square and declared themselves Prophets? "What if" MormonGator were the next Apostle? I don't think the Church would even consider saying there is no Jesus Christ. As for the Martians, well, considering they already did that with the Senate and Congress.... If MormonGator were to become the next apostle, I would honor our Lord's wishes and sustain MormonGator. Then I'd go have a cold beer. I'd need it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, pwrfrk said: I asked that because I want to know. It's not a red herring. Do you see the difference between eternal True principles taught over and over again in scripture & modern revelation, vs a temporary policy decision? The Law of Chasity is an eternal truth, like the need for faith, forbiddance on taking another's life, etc. Policy decisions include things age of missionaries, meeting schedules, the old priesthood policy, etc. The are temporary policy decisions made by God to attempt to best to serve the needs of the church at that time. Edited July 20, 2018 by Jane_Doe Anddenex 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, pwrfrk said: I asked that because I want to know. It's not a red herring. Does disagreeing with a question make the question invalid or does it instead hide the answer? Grunt, it is not a silly what if. Let me ask it this way, since it seems to offend people- If the LDS Church were to "legalize" homosexual fornication, and make it permissible for homosexuals to get temple recommends and hold positions in branch/ward-stake-area leadership.... Would that make the church more of a True Church, or less of one? And why? How would it affect you and the roles you currently have in church? I ask this because now homosexuality is a big mess, nationally. And back in the 70's race was a big mess as well, and the Church opened its doors to non-whites. What keeps that from happening now? And if it did, what would you do? Do not be offended by the question. Your hypothetical question doesn’t work. The church would literally need to take a 180 degree turn and throw out all its teachings. The frustrating part is not the question, it is the part where you say “back in the 70's race was a big mess as well, and the Church opened its doors to non-whites. What keeps that from happening now? And if it did, what would you do?”. What keeps it from happening now? Eternal Law keeps it from happening. If this happened, I would be atheist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwrfrk Posted July 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 1 minute ago, Grunt said: It is a silly what if because you're asking "what if the church stopped following God". Am I? The Baptists did it. Methodist and Epicopalians, too. Can't forget the Catholics or the Holy Rollers (Pentacostals). So many Christian churches have opened their doors and clergy to queerdom. What stops the LDS? carlimac 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 IMO, the only reason to ask the question is if you do not understand certain eternal truths. 1 minute ago, pwrfrk said: What stops the LDS? Truth. God. The Lord Jesus Christ. Jane_Doe, Midwest LDS, mirkwood and 4 others 4 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 Just now, pwrfrk said: Am I? The Baptists did it. Methodist and Epicopalians, too. Can't forget the Catholics or the Holy Rollers (Pentacostals). So many Christian churches have opened their doors and clergy to queerdom. What stops the LDS? LDS are very different in epistemological beliefs and structure than the Protestant churches you mentioned. Those differences make the question you are asking an apples vs oranges thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 4 minutes ago, pwrfrk said: So many Christian churches have opened their doors and clergy to queerdom. What stops the LDS? Those are all apostate churches that are not run by God. The LDS church is run by God. We aren’t just some Christian denomination amongst others, we are the only true church that follows God fully. That is what stops the LDS church. pwrfrk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, Fether said: If this happened, I would be atheist Ditto. This would prove that God is a liar. mirkwood, Anddenex and Just_A_Guy 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 9 minutes ago, pwrfrk said: Am I? The Baptists did it. Methodist and Epicopalians, too. Can't forget the Catholics or the Holy Rollers (Pentacostals). So many Christian churches have opened their doors and clergy to queerdom. What stops the LDS? In the Roman Catholic faith, homosexuals are encouraged to join the Priesthood and take the vow of celibacy. That is actually the natural order of things in the Catholic Church. What stops the LDS Church? Priests don't take the vow of celibacy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 (edited) 51 minutes ago, pwrfrk said: If.... The LDS were to "legalize" homosexuality and make it permissible for homosexuals to get temple recommends and hold positions in branch/ward-stake-area leadership.... Would that make the church more of a True Church, or less of one? And why? How would it affect you and the roles you currently have in church? I ask this because now homosexuality is a big mess, nationally. And back in the 70's race was a big mess as well, and the Church opened its doors to non-whites. What keeps that from happening now? And if it did, what would you do? What would you do if a horrible disease appeared out of nowhere and started initially afflicting mostly homosexual men but on rare occasion spilling over into demographics of other elements of the human population. Then, even after almost 40 years, a cure still could not be found and yet mostly educated men involved in homosexuality remained the vast majority of those that suffer in this country. Would you support homosexuality in men and say it is okay? Would you push for greater rights among those that spread this disease even those that knowingly and deliberately infect others – all as a civil right comparable to historical segregation of blacks? The Traveler Edited July 20, 2018 by Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrShorty Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 I'll answer the OP's question this way -- it would not bother me a bit. I know the above responses dislike the comparison to the priesthood and temple ban, but one thing I find interesting about the Race and priesthood essay at lds.org is how much text the essay expends on questions of tradition and culture -- extensively noting that the Church was organized and grew up in an era of slavery and segregation. As I see it, all of the current highest leadership grew up in an era when homosexuality was considered a mental illness and otherwise considered wrong. As with the priesthood and temple ban, I cannot tell what parts of our teachings and theology around homosexuality are rooted in revelation and which parts are rooted in tradition and culture. If the Church changed its stance as you hypothesize, I would chalk up the previous stance and teachings to "traditions of men" rather than revelation and continue on. pwrfrk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 26 minutes ago, MrShorty said: but one thing I find interesting about the Race and priesthood essay at lds.org is how much text the essay expends on questions of tradition and culture -- extensively noting that the Church was organized and grew up in an era of slavery and segregation. As I see it, all of the current highest leadership grew up in an era when homosexuality was considered a mental illness and otherwise considered wrong. One thing consistent with the comments from people that think like you do is that you all believe the church is run by man and the changing of times. As culture changes, so does the doctrine. That just isn’t true. Midwest LDS, zil and Grunt 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroTypical Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 I'm 4-5 years into a 20 year bet with an atheist buddy of mine. He figures SSM in the temple is a mere 30 years away, once we refresh our church leadership with a few younger generations. I figure he's up in the night. Whoever loses the bet, puts on a pink tutu and sings "I'm a little teapot". mirkwood, pwrfrk, Anddenex and 1 other 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Grunt said: Prophet, maybe. Atta boy, that's more like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 1 hour ago, mirkwood said: Inactivity here I come... I'd excommunicate you so fast you'd never see it coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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