Prophets are not infallible, but is the church?

[Fether]

It had been said and taught by many that the prophets and apostles are NOT infallible. I’ll rest with this one reference and move on to my real question.

”We make no claim of infallibility or perfection in the prophets, seers, and revelators. Yet I humbly state that I have sat in the company of these men, and I believe their greatest desire is to know and do the will of our Heavenly Father.”

- James E Faust

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1989/10/continuous-revelation?lang=eng

Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints infallible? In my life when it came to sharing with friends the gospel, correcting false doctrine at church, or teaching lessons in class I would only ever share things With the LDS stamp on it. That would be anything in the gospel library and LDS.org. Anything from BYU speeches or even books written by prophets and apostles That don’t have the LDS stamp I am hesitant to include in teaching scenarios (though personally I take it as truth).

So I have always seen the church as an entity as being infallible. Is it? Thoughts?

Edited July 20, 2018 by Fether

[Grunt]

Well, if the fullness of times is the final dispensation, and Joseph Smith was the first prophet in the final dispensation, then it would seem to me that Heavenly Father would ensure that the Church, in general, is infallible.  Right?

[Just_A_Guy]

I believe, speaking collectively, the Church/leadership is “infallible” in its role of teaching people to approach God, receive revelation, and walk in the paths of salvation.  That doesn’t necessarily mean I think *everything* it does or says is 100% accurate, objectively speaking—but if we follow it as though it is, then in the grand eternal scheme of things we’ll be just fine.

[Anddenex]

There is a scripture I love in the Book of Mormon talking about pride. The verse first begins with saying and pride entered the Church, or better said pride entered into the hearts of those that professed to belong to the Church.

The Church itself is a vehicle to help the offspring of God to learn to become like their Father in heaven. So, I would think the answer to your question highly depends on how a person defines the Church. If a person defines the Church as its leading body, then the Church itself is indeed not infallible, as its leaders are not infallible.

If we define and recognize the Church is separate from those within, similar to the family unit, then the family unit and the Church are both infallible. The sad thing though, and a reality all members must accept and face is that people will judge the infallibility of the Church by its church members which are indeed fallible. Thus I believe the necessary command to stand as a witness at all times as disciples of Jesus Christ whose name we have upon us.

Edited July 21, 2018 by Anddenex
not added before infallible to actually specify what I was trying to say

[mrmarklin]

The prophets of the current generation are only infallible when they speak ex cathedra.  Those sayings are found in the Doctrine and Covenants. 

Edited July 21, 2018 by mrmarklin

[askandanswer]

I don't think we need to come to any firm position or decision on whether or not the church is fallible, I don't think that is necessary. I believe that if we act as if it is infallible, or act according to that assumption, without knowing whether or not it is true, then we will be blessed and our lives will be better for doing so.

[Midwest LDS]

It depends on what you mean by infallible. If you mean perfect in everything we do, no we are not. Every single one of us sins and falls short of the glory of God, and even some of our apostles; Richard Lyman, Oliver Cowdery etc, have been excommunicated from their high positions. However, if you mean does the church err when God speaks officially to us through our leaders in their positions as Apostles and Prophets of the Lord Jesus Christ, then no it does not. God doesn't reveal everything to the church at once, but everything He does reveal to us is true and He will not allow the Prophet and Apostles to lead us astray. Here is a relevant quote on the matter from Wilford Woodruff's explanation of Official Declaration 1 "The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)"

Edited July 21, 2018 by Midwest LDS

[Fether]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

I don't think we need to come to any firm position or decision on whether or not the church is fallible, I don't think that is necessary. I believe that if we act as if it is infallible, or act according to that assumption, without knowing whether or not it is true, then we will be blessed and our lives will be better for doing so.

I think this is exactly right.

[estradling75]

The church is a tool... one of many that the Lord uses to "See if we will do ALL things he commands"

Given that the Lord has some times commanded the killing of one's Son (See Abraham) or the killing of one drunk on the street (See Nephi) or killing of everything (See Old Testament wars) we need to be wise.

Knowing this one should not be too quick to dismiss the Lord commanding things we did not think he would through his church....  At the same time the leaders of the Church are mortal and fail-able, we should not be to quick to accept "everything" the church teaches if it seems contrary.

This is one of the many reasons why we are instructed to study the scriptures, ponder and pray and take the Holy Spirit for our guide.  So that we can be on the Lord's side always.

 

[The Folk Prophet]

Yeah... What's the point in finding an answer to this question? 

[theplains]

On 7/20/2018 at 7:33 PM, Fether said:

In my life when it came to sharing with friends the gospel, correcting false doctrine at church, or teaching lessons in class I would only ever share things With the LDS stamp on it. That would be anything in the gospel library and LDS.org. Anything from BYU speeches or even books written by prophets and apostles That don’t have the LDS stamp I am hesitant to include in teaching scenarios (though personally I take it as truth).

In former days, I think the stamp of the LDS Church was doctrinal books published by the "Deseret Book
Company" (such as Articles of Faith, Doctrines on Salvation, Answers to Gospel Questions, The
Progress of Man, and Lectures on Faith to name a few).

Thanks,
Jim

Edited July 22, 2018 by theplains
forgot to include some references

[BJ64]

Teaching from the scriptures is your best bet. 

[Iggy]

The *Church*,  meaning The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, meaning the Gospel of Jesus Christ, meaning the Lord's Restored Gospel is  infallible. 

Man on the other hand is NOT infallible. One thing to remember is that the Lord will NOT allow a prophet to lead His church astray. Remember that Pres. Russell M. Nelson is not the only prophet in the LDS church. He is, however, the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the Lord's living Prophet of the entire WORLD.  Here are the Prophets, Seers and Revelators of the Lord's church: LDS Prophets, Seers & Revelators

[Rob Osborn]

The church is fallible. We know that by just reading LDS church history. The church has made mistakes and at times was under certain condemnation of sorts. As with doctrine, the church is not perfect in defining doctrine and has changed positions on things at various times. That said, is it the true church? Absolutely! It carries the power and authority of God with it. It shows us that God works with imperfect people and organizations to continue to bring about his will. 

[CV75]

On 7/20/2018 at 7:33 PM, Fether said:

It had been said and taught by many that the prophets and apostles are NOT infallible. I’ll rest with this one reference and move on to my real question.

”We make no claim of infallibility or perfection in the prophets, seers, and revelators. Yet I humbly state that I have sat in the company of these men, and I believe their greatest desire is to know and do the will of our Heavenly Father.”

- James E Faust

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1989/10/continuous-revelation?lang=eng

Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints infallible? In my life when it came to sharing with friends the gospel, correcting false doctrine at church, or teaching lessons in class I would only ever share things With the LDS stamp on it. That would be anything in the gospel library and LDS.org. Anything from BYU speeches or even books written by prophets and apostles That don’t have the LDS stamp I am hesitant to include in teaching scenarios (though personally I take it as truth).

So I have always seen the church as an entity as being infallible. Is it? Thoughts?

"The Church" can mean so many thins, but in the end she is infallible enough: she is he only place on earth we can go to take our inborn relationship with God (the light of Christ) into the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, and through temple covenants, onward into the heavenly Church of the Firstborn.

[mirkwood]

On ‎7‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 10:59 AM, estradling75 said:

or the killing of one drunk on the street

If that came back, every city I have worked for the last 20 years would suffer a serious depopulation.

[Guest MormonGator]

On 7/21/2018 at 12:59 PM, estradling75 said:

Given that the Lord has some times commanded the killing of one's Son (See Abraham) or the killing of one drunk on the street (See Nephi) or killing of everything (See Old Testament wars) we need to be wise.

 

What makes that different then believing God commands you to fly airplanes into buildings?  Just asking, nothing more. 

Edited July 23, 2018 by MormonGator

[estradling75]

45 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

What makes that different then believing God commands you to fly airplanes into buildings?  Just asking, nothing more. 

Only the truth on if God really did or if you are listening to a false spirit (for lack of a better descriptor).

Such a belief will not make you immune to the world's judgement.  If you are out of harmony with what the world thinks it will cost you, it always has. 

For example believing Gay marriage is a sin is becoming more and more costly for those that believe it is what God command.  Those that do will not be immune to paying the cost the world demands for such

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, estradling75 said:

Only the truth on if God really did or if you are listening to a false spirit (for lack of a better descriptor).

Such a belief will not make you immune to the world's judgement.  If you are out of harmony with what the world thinks it will cost you, it always has. 

For example believing Gay marriage is a sin is becoming more and more costly for those that believe it is what God command.  Those that do will not be immune to paying the cost the world demands for such

Understand. Thanks. 

 I'm not starting a fight or anything. But if you (generic) believe that the prophets tell you to fly a plane into a building and kill 3,000 people, than in theory, you (again, generic) would seem to have a hard time saying that the 9/11 hijackers were wrong. 

[estradling75]

3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Understand. Thanks. 

 I'm not starting a fight or anything. But if you (generic) believe that the prophets tell you to fly a plane into a building and kill 3,000 people, than in theory, you (again, generic) would seem to have a hard time saying that the 9/11 hijackers were wrong. 

On the contrary...  Personal revelation is just that personal...  I can disbelieve and claim as flat out wrong any personal revelation @MormonGator or anyone else wants to lay claim to...

Thus the 9-11 hijackers can think they are following God and will be in heaven and I can think they were following the devil and will end up in hell.  Which is exactly the situation we currently have.  (Of course the thing of eternal importance is... what did God really do?.. and I have already shared my opinion on that)

Which is why each individual needs to be solidly grounded in the scriptures and how to get personal revelation because that eternal following of God is what really matters.

[Traveler]

Both the Church and its leaders are fallible.  History has demonstrated this and Prophets have prophesied of the Great Apostasy.  Isaiah prophesied that man separates from G-d by transgressing the Law, changing the Ordinances and breaking the Everlasting Covenant.  We also know that Israel was in a state of Apostasy when Jesus ministered in the flesh.  However, I believe we, as individuals are the most fallible when we kick against the pricks, persecute the Saints and fight against G-d (his chosen and ordained servants) - even and especially when we do so in ignorance.  For those that are not sure - thank G-d we have repentance.

 

The Traveler

[bytebear]

The church has one single goal.  To bring to pass, the immortality and eternal life of Man.  This includes priesthood keys, and a structure.   I think a lot of what has been organized is inspired.  The home teaching program, the welfare program, the three hour Sunday block, the Sunday school manuals.  Sometimes I think God pushes prophets in the right direction, or simply inspires people in the trenches with brilliance.   Other times, the prophets may say, "How about this idea..." and God says, "That'll work." And sometimes God may say "You can try it out, but I'll let you know when to change it."  Perfect?  No, the programs, aren't perfect (although some are as close to Earthly perfection, as anything I have seen).  And as the church grows, programs don't work.  When I was a kid, we had Sunday School in the morning, Sacrament meeting in the afternoon, and Primary was on Wednesdays.  Worked great when you lived a couple blocks from the church, which the vast majority of Mormons did, back in the day.  Also, temples were massive.  And new temples were rare.  Not so much any more.   The church even (no pun intended) floated the idea of a temple ship that could travel to the islands of the Pacific so members could have their temple work done on a portable temple.  So, no, not so much perfect, but adjustable to the needs and requirements to fulfill the plan of God.

[Guest MormonGator]

6 hours ago, estradling75 said:

On the contrary...  Personal revelation is just that personal...  I can disbelieve and claim as flat out wrong any personal revelation @MormonGator or anyone else wants to lay claim to...

Thus the 9-11 hijackers can think they are following God and will be in heaven and I can think they were following the devil and will end up in hell.  Which is exactly the situation we currently have.  (Of course the thing of eternal importance is... what did God really do?.. and I have already shared my opinion on that)

Which is why each individual needs to be solidly grounded in the scriptures and how to get personal revelation because that eternal following of God is what really matters.

That's the complexity of religion, I guess. Each one thinks it's the truth, and that every other religion is heretical. 

[lostinwater]

3 hours ago, MormonGator said:

That's the complexity of religion, I guess. Each one thinks it's the truth, and that every other religion is heretical. 

+1 

i don't know of a single Christian sect that doesn't discount large swaths of the scriptures.  Or at least create an authority structure that is able to invalidate/replace them where necessary - and that's no jab specifically at any one sect.  They/we *all* do it .  It's been a bit of a mystery to me as to how each sect, in endless succession, can claim objective correctness based  on texts whose functional interpretation falls anywhere in the spectrum from the westboro baptist church to calvinism.  And the irony is that each one's claims, based strictly on the disparate parts they choose to focus on, are almost impossible to argue with unless you are as willing to ignore their dogma as they are to ignore yours.  Fortunately (or unfortunately), we are all rather good at this.....  ....myself included....

Context, or the lack thereof, can twist the scriptures into saying just about anything.  And i don't know that there is anyone blame.  Participation (through interpretation) is not optional for one who practices Christianity.  Most are just making their way the best they know how.