receiving a fulness of joy

[theplains]

I had a question on this part of the 2009 Gospel Principles.

"If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our Heavenly Father has received.
(See D&C 93:30–34.)"   The 1997 GP has "our heavenly parents" instead of "our Heavenly Father".

"We learned that if we placed our faith in Him, obeying His word and following His example, we would 
be exalted and become like our Heavenly Father. We would receive a fulness of joy."  The 1997 GP has
"our heavenly parents" instead of "our Heavenly Father."

"We learned that if we followed His plan, we would become like Him. We would be resurrected; we would 
have all power in heaven and on earth; we would become heavenly parents and have spirit children just 
as He does (see D&C 132:19–20)."

Is there any LDS teaching which shows when this man (who became a God) first imagined he would be 
worshipped by his spirit children on the planet we now call Earth?

Thanks,
Jim

[mordorbund]

18 hours ago, theplains said:

I had a question on this part of the 2009 Gospel Principles.

"If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our Heavenly Father has received.
(See D&C 93:30–34.)"   The 1997 GP has "our heavenly parents" instead of "our Heavenly Father".

"We learned that if we placed our faith in Him, obeying His word and following His example, we would 
be exalted and become like our Heavenly Father. We would receive a fulness of joy."  The 1997 GP has
"our heavenly parents" instead of "our Heavenly Father."

"We learned that if we followed His plan, we would become like Him. We would be resurrected; we would 
have all power in heaven and on earth; we would become heavenly parents and have spirit children just 
as He does (see D&C 132:19–20)."

Is there any LDS teaching which shows when this man (who became a God) first imagined he would be 
worshipped by his spirit children on the planet we now call Earth?

Thanks,
Jim

The chapter you're quoting from is about the premortal life. The earliest point that we have consistent and clear teaching on are this period of the Heavenly Council (see here), which includes the introduction of the plan of salvation, the fall of Satan, and the creation. Margaret Barker refers to this as the First Day teachings. Note that none of these teachings take place before the Father is God (in everything that means).

As for God the Father's origins, we have a handful of sources, but no clear consistent teaching. For example, perhaps the most well-known teaching comes from Lorenzo Snow:

Quote

As man now is, God once was:
As God now is, man may be.

And then when you read through the lesson that quotes it, you'll see the emphasis is on our potential to become like our Father in Heaven (just like the lesson you quoted from Gospel Principles), not on the origins of God the Father.

[mordorbund]

And for what it's worth, I imagine the question was prompted by other readings, since the neither the title (receiving a fulness of joy) nor the sources cited (God wants us to be like Him), lead us to God's ambition to be worshiped. Rather, it should lead the reader to realize how much God loves us as a father.

[theplains]

On 7/24/2018 at 3:46 PM, mordorbund said:

And for what it's worth, I imagine the question was prompted by other readings, since the neither the title (receiving a fulness of joy) nor the sources cited (God wants us to be like Him), lead us to God's ambition to be worshiped. Rather, it should lead the reader to realize how much God loves us as a father.

When Heavenly Father was only a man growing up on his planet, what led to his ambition to be worshipped when
he became a God and had spiritual children who would live on our planet Earth?

Thanks,
Jim

[mordorbund]

20 minutes ago, theplains said:

When Heavenly Father was only a man growing up on his planet, what led to his ambition to be worshipped when
he became a God and had spiritual children who would live on our planet Earth?

Thanks,
Jim

 

[CV75]

32 minutes ago, theplains said:

When Heavenly Father was only a man growing up on his planet, what led to his ambition to be worshipped when
he became a God and had spiritual children who would live on our planet Earth?

Thanks,
Jim

You are drawing the wrong conclusions from the text you are providing. The early meaning of the word "worship" is a noun, meaning excellence of character; dignity; worth; worthiness. These are noble pursuits, epitomized in the blessings you posted: the fulness of joy, exaltation, becoming like our heavenly parents (have all power in heaven and on earth, and have spirit children). Do you not feel this way even today in a small degree, that Christ has given you grace, in other words, all power over sin and death, as He prayed the Father to give you (John 17)?

[VelvetShadow]

5 hours ago, theplains said:

When Heavenly Father was only a man growing up on his planet, what led to his ambition to be worshipped when
he became a God and had spiritual children who would live on our planet Earth?

Thanks,
Jim

Interesting thought isn't it?  I'm just learning and can only speculate but I would guess his motivation would be so that he could be like his Heavenly Father, just like it is for us.

Edited July 27, 2018 by VelvetShadow

[zil]

I personally highly doubt that God ever sat around thinking, "Gee, wouldn't it be nice if millions upon millions worshiped me?"  @CV75's description seems far more probable.  Further, I think Abraham gives us a more likely shadow:

Quote

Abraham 1:2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.

3 It was conferred upon me from the fathers; it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me.

4 I sought for mine appointment unto the Priesthood according to the appointment of God unto the fathers concerning the seed.

Regardless, I think one should be very careful about speculating on things which have not been revealed lest one convince oneself that fantasy is reality.

[mordorbund]

@theplains What you're presenting and asking about is a caricature that bears absolutely no resemblance to the passages you're citing. Would you care to share your source material with us so we can better understand what's driving your inquiry?

[theplains]

On 7/26/2018 at 8:23 PM, CV75 said:

These are noble pursuits, epitomized in the blessings you posted: the fulness of joy, exaltation, becoming like our heavenly parents (have all power in heaven and on earth, and have spirit children). Do you not feel this way even today in a small degree, that Christ has given you grace, in other words, all power over sin and death, as He prayed the Father to give you (John 17)?

I don't believe Joseph Smith's teaching that Heavenly Father was once a man who became a God so I don't believe
in the idea of heavenly parents and exaltation to godhood. But I do believe Christ has given us grace and his atonement
gives us power in that death and sin will not defeat us.

Thanks,
Jim

[theplains]

9 hours ago, mordorbund said:

@theplains What you're presenting and asking about is a caricature that bears absolutely no resemblance to the passages you're citing. Would you care to share your source material with us so we can better understand what's driving your inquiry?

The source material I'm using is Gospel Principles. I'm just wondering how it played out for the man who
supposedly became a God and bore spirit children who came to live on our planet Earth.

Thanks,
Jim

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

The source material I'm using is Gospel Principles. I'm just wondering how it played out for the man who
supposedly became a God and bore spirit children who came to live on our planet Earth.

Thanks,
Jim

But, the source material you quoted makes no mention of "worship," let alone it being what is supposedly sought after by those  seeking to fulfill God's will that His children become like Him--i.e. one with Him even as the Son is one with the Father.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mordorbund]

 

On 7/23/2018 at 8:42 PM, theplains said:

Is there any LDS teaching which shows when this man (who became a God) first imagined he would be 
worshipped by his spirit children on the planet we now call Earth?

 

15 hours ago, theplains said:

The source material I'm using is Gospel Principles. I'm just wondering how it played out for the man who
supposedly became a God and bore spirit children who came to live on our planet Earth.

Thanks,
Jim

If the source material you're using is Gospel Principles, then how are you making the leap that 1) God was once a man, 2) God has spirit children on some other planet we do not call Earth, and 3) pre-God God sought for a time when he would be worshiped, based solely on the quotes you provided?

15 hours ago, theplains said:

I don't believe Joseph Smith's teaching that Heavenly Father was once a man who became a God so I don't believe
in the idea of heavenly parents and exaltation to godhood. But I do believe Christ has given us grace and his atonement
gives us power in that death and sin will not defeat us.

Thanks,
Jim

Of your 3 statements (1. Heavenly Father was once a man who became a God, 2. heavenly parents and exaltation to godhood, 3. Christ's grace and atonement gives us power over sin and death), only 2 of them are covered in the Gospel Principles manual. Since you are familiar with it as a source material (familiar enough to cite two different editions), I'm sure you'll correct me and provide quotes for all 3.

 

[CV75]

15 hours ago, theplains said:

I don't believe Joseph Smith's teaching that Heavenly Father was once a man who became a God so I don't believe
in the idea of heavenly parents and exaltation to godhood. But I do believe Christ has given us grace and his atonement
gives us power in that death and sin will not defeat us.

Thanks,
Jim

Why should I want to know about what you don't believe? I didn't ask. But if you don't believe it, why would you quote material that doesn't mention it to start a thread in which you mention it?

[theplains]

On 7/28/2018 at 1:37 PM, mordorbund said:

If the source material you're using is Gospel Principles, then how are you making the leap that 1) God was once a man, 2) God has spirit children on some other planet we do not call Earth, and 3) pre-God God sought for a time when he would be worshiped, based solely on the quotes you provided?

Of your 3 statements (1. Heavenly Father was once a man who became a God, 2. heavenly parents and exaltation to godhood, 3. Christ's grace and atonement gives us power over sin and death), only 2 of them are covered in the Gospel Principles manual. Since you are familiar with it as a source material (familiar enough to cite two different editions), I'm sure you'll correct me and provide quotes for all 3.

I didn't mean to give you the impression that I am only using Gospel Principles as the main source even though
I was primarily quoting from it. I am also using supplemental LDS material to make some of my conclusions.

As for the leap about God was once a man, I don't view it as a leap as it is mentioned in the 1997 version in chapter 47.

"The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder,
you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you
arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel—you
must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles
of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed
through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all
to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to
learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings
of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348).

This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph
Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know
for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man
like us; . . .God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth,
the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet
Joseph Smith, pp. 345–46).

Our Heavenly Father knows our trials, our weaknesses, and
our sins. He has compassion and mercy on us. He wants us to
succeed even as he did."

Two points in this section.

a] Joseph Smith taught Heavenly Father was once a man who became God.  This was removed
from the 2009 (whether they did this because they wanted to deemphasize it some other
reason is unclear.

b] Heavenly Father is taught to have succeeded and that we should look to him as
our 'role model' so to speak.

Apparently, this man man had to succeed as did his Father before him (leading to the 
conclusion he wants us to succeed in becoming a God like him).

Even though the key statement above has been removed from the current version of Gospel Principles, the 
"Heavenly Father is an exalted man" principle is repeated in many of the church's magazines.

Examples:

April 1971, New Era publication, "People on other Worlds"
May 1976, New Era, "How to Gain a Testimony"
July 1979, Ensign, "Line Upon Line"
January 1989, Ensign, "The Restoration of Major Doctrines Through Joseph Smith"
February 2002, Ensign, "The Origin of Man"
October 2008, General Conference, "God Loves and Helps all His Children"
February 2012, Liahona, "Our Father in Heaven"

From what I understand, please correct me if I am wrong, achieving a fulness of joy for our supposed heavenly parents
was a blessing for their exaltation. For that, I was thinking of the 1997 GP passage on page 15 "We learned that if we placed our
faith in him, obeying his word and following his example, we would be exalted and become like our heavenly parents. We
would receive a fulness of joy."  

The 1997 GP says,

"If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our heavenly parents have received."

The conclusion here is that Heavenly Father and Mother did not initially have a fulness of joy and later received
it.

"We learned that if we placed our faith in him, obeying his word and following his example, we
would be exalted and become like our heavenly parents. We
would receive a fulness of joy."

These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:
1.    They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:62).
2.    They will become gods (see D&C 132:20–23).
3.    They will be united eternally with their righteous family members and will be able to have eternal increase.
4.    They will receive a fulness of joy.

As for the second query, I hope I answered it.  I was just wondering if this man (who would become a God of planet
Earth ever imagined he would be worshipped by his spirit children - a 'blessing' of eternal increase).

The 1997 GP says, "All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become
like him—a god. He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and
eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).

If the material I quoted is wrong, then do you believe the LDS Church is deceiving people by teaching them they
can become a god like he became one? 

Thanks,
Jim

Edited July 30, 2018 by theplains
fix italics

[mordorbund]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

I didn't mean to give you the impression that I am only using Gospel Principles as the main source even though
I was primarily quoting from it. I am also using supplemental LDS material to make some of my conclusions.

As for the leap about God was once a man, I don't view it as a leap as it is mentioned in the 1997 version in chapter 47.

"The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder,
you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you
arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel—you
must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles
of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed
through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all
to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to
learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings
of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348).

This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph
Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know
for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man
like us; . . .God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth,
the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet
Joseph Smith, pp. 345–46).

Our Heavenly Father knows our trials, our weaknesses, and
our sins. He has compassion and mercy on us. He wants us to
succeed even as he did."

Glad you can see where my confusion stemmed from. Now that you've got a source that matches up closer to your question, there's a context I can use for addressing your question.

Quote

Two points in this section.

a] Joseph Smith taught Heavenly Father was once a man who became God.  This was removed
from the 2009 (whether they did this because they wanted to deemphasize it some other
reason is unclear.

b] Heavenly Father is taught to have succeeded and that we should look to him as
our 'role model' so to speak.

Apparently, this man man had to succeed as did his Father before him (leading to the 
conclusion he wants us to succeed in becoming a God like him).

a) I can't speak to the 2009 edition, but the quote is still there in the 2011 edition. As I'm sure you're aware, if you want to know more about this teaching, you will find it in the King Follett sermon.

b) As in all things. He even sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to solidify this example for us. 

c) Again you make a sourceless leap (not that it's unwarranted, but it's difficult to address your questions if we don't know what's driving them. Imagine a young child asks you "what's sex?" The answer is different if you know he's been reading forms versus watching cable). The idea that God the Father has a father that went through the same process stems from the Sermon in the Grove, with perhaps a passing reference in the hymn If You Could Hie to Kolob. I don't know why you bring it up since it has little to no bearing on your question.

Quote

Even though the key statement above has been removed from the current version of Gospel Principles, the 
"Heavenly Father is an exalted man" principle is repeated in many of the church's magazines.

As linked above, the teaching is in the latest edition.

Quote

Examples:

April 1971, New Era publication, "People on other Worlds"
May 1976, New Era, "How to Gain a Testimony"
July 1979, Ensign, "Line Upon Line"
January 1989, Ensign, "The Restoration of Major Doctrines Through Joseph Smith"
February 2002, Ensign, "The Origin of Man"
October 2008, General Conference, "God Loves and Helps all His Children"
February 2012, Liahona, "Our Father in Heaven"

May 1976, New Era, "How to Gain a Testimony"

That's a good one. You might want to read past the first paragraph

I wasn't challenging you on the teaching itself (as can readily be seen by reading my first post), but on the seeming duplicity of posting a quote, and asking a question that bears little resemblance to that quote. Regardless, if you can stay on topic with your question I'm willing to drop it and move forward.

Quote

From what I understand, please correct me if I am wrong, achieving a fulness of joy for our supposed heavenly parents
was a blessing for their exaltation. For that, I was thinking of the 1997 GP passage on page 15 "We learned that if we placed our
faith in him, obeying his word and following his example, we would be exalted and become like our heavenly parents. We
would receive a fulness of joy."  

The 1997 GP says,

"If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our heavenly parents have received."

The conclusion here is that Heavenly Father and Mother did not initially have a fulness of joy and later received
it.

Yes, a "fulness of joy" (not just joy) is a blessing of exaltation. I cannot speak to the conditions of our Heavenly parents and their journey as they hasn't been revealed to me. Some conclusions are reasonable, but we must acknowledge that they are based on assumptions that may not be true.

And I think the conclusion we were meant to draw from this statement is that if through Christ we overcome all and are exalted, we will experience the same joy God has.

4 hours ago, theplains said:

"We learned that if we placed our faith in him, obeying his word and following his example, we
would be exalted and become like our heavenly parents. We
would receive a fulness of joy."

These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:
1.    They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:62).
2.    They will become gods (see D&C 132:20–23).
3.    They will be united eternally with their righteous family members and will be able to have eternal increase.
4.    They will receive a fulness of joy.

As for the second query, I hope I answered it.  I was just wondering if this man (who would become a God of planet
Earth ever imagined he would be worshipped by his spirit children - a 'blessing' of eternal increase).

Now that you've provided a citation, I will refer you back to it. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man
like us; . . .God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345–46). Jesus is exalted and sits on the right hand of God. Is there any Christian teaching which shows when this man (who was incarnate God) first imagined he would be worshipped by his spirit children on another planet? Or is there any Christian teaching which shows when this man (who is in the express image of his father, and who we cannot look upon without seeing the Father) first imagined the level of worship he would receive from his adopted children on this planet?

Quote

The 1997 GP says, "All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become
like him—a god. He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and
eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).

If the material I quoted is wrong, then do you believe the LDS Church is deceiving people by teaching them they
can become a god like he became one? 

Thanks,
Jim

You should probably be a bit more judicious in suggesting deceptive motives when you started this thread with a title and quote that doesn't support your question.

[mordorbund]

@theplains What is your purpose here? Are you trying to better understand the Mormon perspective? Or are you attempting to minister? Or is there something else that brings you here?

[theplains]

On 7/30/2018 at 5:21 PM, mordorbund said:

Now that you've provided a citation, I will refer you back to it. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man
like us; . . .God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345–46). Jesus is exalted and sits on the right hand of God. Is there any Christian teaching which shows when this man (who was incarnate God) first imagined he would be worshipped by his spirit children on another planet? Or is there any Christian teaching which shows when this man (who is in the express image of his father, and who we cannot look upon without seeing the Father) first imagined the level of worship he would receive from his adopted children on this planet?

Hello,

I'm aware of that quote.  Part of it is also in the History of the Church, volume 6.

"In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, 
it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going 
to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will 
refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see." 

source: http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/History_of_the_Church/

I have an earlier edition of Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (prior to 1950).  

In your subsequent posted, you asked if I was here to minister.  I suppose we are all some form of minister when
we share our ideas.

As a non-LDS Christian, I don't believe Jesus was anything less than God so I don't think I could say he [Jesus]
would ever need o imagine he would be worshipped.

Getting back to the topic of "fulness of joy," how do you understand this passage from page 15 of the 1997 
Gospel Principles?

"We learned that if we placed our faith in him, obeying his word and following his example, we would be exalted 
and become like our heavenly parents. We would receive a fulness of joy."  

Do you believe Heavenly Mother and Father were always Gods or did they receive their fulness of joy as a blessing
for being exalted (becoming Gods)?

Thanks,
Jim

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

Hello,

I'm aware of that quote.  Part of it is also in the History of the Church, volume 6.

"In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, 
it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going 
to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will 
refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see." 

source: http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/History_of_the_Church/

I have an earlier edition of Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (prior to 1950).  

In your subsequent posted, you asked if I was here to minister.  I suppose we are all some form of minister when
we share our ideas.

As a non-LDS Christian, I don't believe Jesus was anything less than God so I don't think I could say he [Jesus]
would ever need o imagine he would be worshipped.

Getting back to the topic of "fulness of joy," how do you understand this passage from page 15 of the 1997 
Gospel Principles?

"We learned that if we placed our faith in him, obeying his word and following his example, we would be exalted 
and become like our heavenly parents. We would receive a fulness of joy."  

Do you believe Heavenly Mother and Father were always Gods or did they receive their fulness of joy as a blessing
for being exalted (becoming Gods)?

Thanks,
Jim

You seem to have a lot a problems concerning G-d or the worship of G-d.  Part of you problem seems to me, as I have read your post – is you disdain for Jesus Christ and your refusal to reference Christ.  For true and real Christians – Jesus Christ is the best example of G-d provided to or for mortal men (including women if you do not like any masculine references)

Jesus proves conclusive to Christians that G-d was once a man.  Jesus is divine – worthy of worship and was a man indistinguishable from any other man of his time.  If you were a Christian you would understand this and not question it on a public forum.  You say that you cannot accept that Jesus was anything less than a G-d.  Not sure what you mean by that???  But it sounds like that you do not believe Jesus suffered and died for sins.  Or else you believe that the sins of man can bring G-d down to death and cause G-d to suffer?  Maybe you believe Jesus only pretended to die and to suffer??

I find your ideas frightening and contradictory and a gross misinterpretation of scripture.  And this is without discussing specifically why the Pharisees condemned Jesus (as you seem to imply) to death for what they interpreted in his teachings - trying to teach that a man could become G-d (as testified in scripture by John).

 

The Traveler

[mordorbund]

13 hours ago, theplains said:

Getting back to the topic of "fulness of joy," how do you understand this passage from page 15 of the 1997 
Gospel Principles?

"We learned that if we placed our faith in him, obeying his word and following his example, we would be exalted 
and become like our heavenly parents. We would receive a fulness of joy."  

I think the conclusion we were meant to draw from this statement (and the one I draw from it) is that if through Christ we overcome all and are exalted, we will experience the same joy God has. I think I already explained it somewhere. Ah yes, here it is:

On 7/30/2018 at 5:21 PM, mordorbund said:

And I think the conclusion we were meant to draw from this statement is that if through Christ we overcome all and are exalted, we will experience the same joy God has.

And if you want an earlier and fuller version:

On 7/24/2018 at 3:43 PM, mordorbund said:

The chapter you're quoting from is about the premortal life. The earliest point that we have consistent and clear teaching on are this period of the Heavenly Council (see here), which includes the introduction of the plan of salvation, the fall of Satan, and the creation. Margaret Barker refers to this as the First Day teachings. Note that none of these teachings take place before the Father is God (in everything that means).

As for God the Father's origins, we have a handful of sources, but no clear consistent teaching. For example, perhaps the most well-known teaching comes from Lorenzo Snow:

"As man now is, God once was:
As God now is, man may be."

And then when you read through the lesson that quotes it, you'll see the emphasis is on our potential to become like our Father in Heaven (just like the lesson you quoted from Gospel Principles), not on the origins of God the Father.

As for your other question,

Quote

Do you believe Heavenly Mother and Father were always Gods or did they receive their fulness of joy as a blessing
for being exalted (becoming Gods)?

I think God was once a man who dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ did. I also believe that in the beginning was Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ was with God and Jesus Christ was God. I believe he dwelt on an earth and was tempted in diverse ways the same as any other man, except that he did not yield to temptation. I believe that Christ was of the same species as the billions of humans alive today, as is evidenced by his maternal lineage. I believe that Christ was of the same species as the God I worship, as is evidenced by his paternal lineage. I think the New Testament attests that God can come to earth, die, resurrect and receive a glory that he did not enjoy while on earth.

I also believe that Abraham is now a god and has been exalted on a throne. For this reason, I don't much speculate on what sort of life God the Father had when he dwelt on an earth. I don't speculate that he needed a savior, or was a savior, or lived a perfect but lonely life and had no need for a savior. We have a few sentences uttered by a prophet based on revelations he received. If I am to know more on this, it is to be received by revelation: either revelation given to the whole world through a prophet (in which case you would probably already have 5 versions of it in your library), or given to me personally (in which case I would treasure it up and keep it to myself). In neither case would I go beyond the bounds of what has been revealed.

I'm sure you can appreciate this position. Or, if not, then tell me what you understand of this statement: "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

Do you warn your daughters about being filled with the Holy Ghost? How do you prevent their impregnation when they are moved upon by the spirit? Are men at risk also? If the Highest only overshadowed and the Holy Ghost actually came upon Mary, then was God the Father cuckolded (the angel only says it will be called the Son of God)?

Surely you can see that these questions are nonsense (I hope you can anyways, if not further discussion is meaningless), reading beyond the words of the apostle, and frankly offensive for turning something divine into a soap opera. 

By the way, "fulness of joy" has a component that has already been revealed in scripture. Are you already aware of it?

 

[mordorbund]

14 hours ago, theplains said:

In your subsequent posted, you asked if I was here to minister.  I suppose we are all some form of minister when
we share our ideas.

Pew says 2/3 of those who leave Mormonism leave religion altogether - not just Jesus, but God! Is this an improvement for the Mormon soul? Is the Mormon more likely to "accidentally" find Jesus inside Mormonism or outside of it?

 

[theplains]

On 8/2/2018 at 11:49 PM, mordorbund said:

Pew says 2/3 of those who leave Mormonism leave religion altogether - not just Jesus, but God! Is this an improvement for the Mormon soul? Is the Mormon more likely to "accidentally" find Jesus inside Mormonism or outside of it?

Various religions teach different versions of Jesus. For example, Jesus is only a prophet in Islam. For Jehovah's Witnesses
he is Michael the Archangel. From what I have read in LDS literature, Jesus became a God.

Jim

[mordorbund]

 

20 minutes ago, theplains said:

On 8/2/2018 at 11:49 PM, mordorbund said:

Pew says 2/3 of those who leave Mormonism leave religion altogether - not just Jesus, but God! Is this an improvement for the Mormon soul? Is the Mormon more likely to "accidentally" find Jesus inside Mormonism or outside of it?

Various religions teach different versions of Jesus. For example, Jesus is only a prophet in Islam. For Jehovah's Witnesses
he is Michael the Archangel. From what I have read in LDS literature, Jesus became a God.

Jim

I have read and reread your response, but I haven't read your answer. Care to try again?

[BJ64]

On 7/27/2018 at 8:19 PM, theplains said:

I don't believe Joseph Smith's teaching that Heavenly Father was once a man who became a God so I don't believe
in the idea of heavenly parents and exaltation to godhood. But I do believe Christ has given us grace and his atonement
gives us power in that death and sin will not defeat us.

Thanks,
Jim

Then you don’t believe in the most basic part of the gospel. That being the plan of salvation. 

[VelvetShadow]

13 hours ago, theplains said:

Various religions teach different versions of Jesus. For example, Jesus is only a prophet in Islam. For Jehovah's Witnesses
he is Michael the Archangel. From what I have read in LDS literature, Jesus became a God.

Jim

I could be totally wrong and I'm only just getting into the beliefs of mormonism, but I thought LDS believed that Michael the Archangel was incarnated as Adam? Is that right?

And I think you have a good point, if the point of the plan of salvation is to be exalted to godhood, you would have to assume Jesus made the cut, so does that mean we won't see Jesus in Heaven, if he's been exalted to a God he'd have his own universe to be God of right?