Freemasonry (edited)

[Guest Scott]

In the dramatized Church History and in several Church history writings before the late 1970's, Freemasonry and the early church leadership's connections to Freemasonry were openly discussed.  All prominent early Church leaders were Freemasons and Joseph Smith is mentioned expelling some apostates from the Mason's Lodge.

It seems that part of history is being forgotten.   Reading early Church History, it used to be important to historians, but it seems not so much anymore.

Maybe it isn't quite as important now (I don't personally know any LDS members who are Freemasons), but the connections to early Mormon beliefs are interesting.

At one time, Freemasonry was very important to the history of the early Church, but now it seems like an almost taboo or controversial subject.   It is interesting from a historical standpoint, especially.

Are there any people here who are Freemasons?  Do you know any LDS members who are still Freemasons?    I know a few Freemasons, but none are LDS.  

I thought this might make some interesting conversation, since it's not exactly something that is discussed in Church, at least not for years.  

Edit:

I removed some content previously posted.  I got that information by plugging into the search box of the Masonic Lodge of Education website, but I should have looked closer because I thought it linked only to content associated with Masonic websites themselves.

My apologies.   I should not have posted that information.  The content was posted for approximately 40 minutes and will not be posted again.

I sincerely apologize to any Freemasons who might read this post.  

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by Scott

[Guest Scott]

For those interested, there are still some references to Freemasonry among the early Church leaders on LDS.org.   

Here is one interesting story about John C Bennett and how the LDS Mason Lodge's expelled him:

https://www.lds.org/manual/church-history-in-the-fulness-of-times/chapter-twenty-one?lang=eng

Here is another story about how the upper level of Joseph Smith's brick store was used as the meeting place for Masonic gatherings:

https://www.lds.org/manual/church-history-in-the-fulness-of-times/chapter-twenty?lang=eng

Anyway, here are a lot of other interesting stories and sources on LDS.org:

https://www.lds.org/search?lang=eng&query=freemason+joseph+smith

Since I'm interested in Church history, I find the connections to Freemasonry very interesting from a historical standpoint.  

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by Scott

[Grunt]

First, Most if that is incorrect.  Second, I find posting another organizations sacred rituals, accurate or not, as distasteful as posting sacred temple ordinances.  

[NeedleinA]

10 minutes ago, Grunt said:

First, Most if that is incorrect.  Second, I find posting another organizations sacred rituals, accurate or not, as distasteful as posting sacred temple ordinances.  

You beat me to the punch. This^^^^
A. I hope the post is removed.
B. We apologize to any Freemasons if you see this at some point.

Edited August 8, 2018 by NeedleinA

[wenglund]

I agree with @Grunt. If you wish to discuss the historical connections between  masonry and the early church, that is fine. But, out of respect to others,  please remove the sacred content.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Guest Scott]

I removed the content. 

Anyway, I got that information by plugging into the search box of the Masonic Lodge of Education website, but I should have looked closer because I thought it linked only to content associated with Masonic websites themselves.

My apologies.  Yes, not cool on my part.  

Quote

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by Scott

[person0]

While I do not have a source on hand, my understanding is that the mob that killed Joseph and Hyrum was a group of Freemasons who (aside from other reasons) were angered by the similarities between the endowment and the Freemason ceremonies.

[NeedleinA]

3 minutes ago, person0 said:

While I do not have a source on hand,

If you can find that source later, that would be helpful.

[person0]

2 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

If you can find that source later, that would be helpful.

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/selections-2006-religious-education-student-symposium/masonic-martyrdom-freemason

Quote

In conclusion, Illinois Freemasons feared the Mormon influence within their order. The Mormon Masons’ growing population, changes in tradition, and disclosure of secret rites and rituals deeply upset the non-Mormon lodges. As a result, Masons reacted as they had done before in the case of Captain William Morgan, by eliminating the threat. This similarity sheds light on one of the most traumatic incidents in the history of the Church.

Edited August 8, 2018 by person0

[wenglund]

23 minutes ago, Scott said:

I removed the content. 

Much appreciated.

If you find interesting certain parallels between Free Masonry (which is a somewhat modern invention) and aspects of the LDS faith (particularly temple rituals), you may be even more interested in more ancient connections. 

May I suggest the Interpreter Foundation's  Temple on Mount Zion Series (see HERE and HERE and HERE)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited August 8, 2018 by wenglund

[Guest Scott]

9 minutes ago, person0 said:

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/selections-2006-religious-education-student-symposium/masonic-martyrdom-freemason

Thanks for the link.  That may explain some things.

Early in our Church History, there is a close connection with Freemasons.   Most (maybe even all; I'm not sure, but for sure most were) early Church leaders were Freemasons.  We shared a lot of symbolism and Freemasonry was mentioned often in Church context.  It was really big in Nauvoo especially.  

Until the late 1970's Freemasonry was more openly discussed in a Church historical context, but not much since then.   By then though, it was only discussed in historical context only.   

Other than discussing it in a historical context, the connection seems to have disappeared by the time of the Mormon migration to the Salt Lake Valley.  

The above could be the main reason why ties were severed (whether unofficially or officially severed).  

The parallels and connections are interesting though.  

[Just_A_Guy]

21 minutes ago, Scott said:

Thanks for the link.  That may explain some things.

Early in our Church History, there is a close connection with Freemasons.   Most (maybe even all; I'm not sure, but for sure most were) early Church leaders were Freemasons.  We shared a lot of symbolism and Freemasonry was mentioned often in Church context.  It was really big in Nauvoo especially.  

Until the late 1970's Freemasonry was more openly discussed in a Church historical context, but not much since then.   By then though, it was only discussed in historical context only.   

Other than discussing it in a historical context, the connection seems to have disappeared by the time of the Mormon migration to the Salt Lake Valley.  

The above could be the main reason why ties were severed (whether unofficially or officially severed).  

The parallels and connections are interesting though.  

My understanding is that the first Utah lodge was set up under dispensation from a Masonic lodge back in Illinois that was still pretty teed off at Joseph Smith; so the Utah lodge for many years refused to admit practicing Mormons.  

One entertaining factoid:  Morgan’s widow joined the LDS Church and became a plural wife of Joseph Smith.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[Traveler]

Connections with the early Church and Freemasonry is not a problem for me.   Nor is the Church's connection with the Boy Scouts of America.  I understand that many prominent and lots of less prominent members have been connected with the BSA and Freemasonry.  In another year and a half that will all change concerning the BSA.  There may be some members remain in the BSA organization but the official connections will end.  A great deal of operations and procedures from the BSA were part of activities and things officially taught and utilized within the official Church operations of priesthood functions and activities.

Freemasonry like the BSA have been part of the LDS Church history - a history that has changed and will not continue.  My suggestion is that if someone is going to bleed to death and die in the church it should not be because of Freemasonry or the BSA - I realize that if a person desires a thing enough that one excuse is as good as any other.  But if someone wants to be convincing they should be logical and intelligent.  I do not think making a big deal of Freemasonry or the BSA and their connections to the church is worth much excitement.

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I do not think making a big deal of Freemasonry or the BSA and their connections to the church is worth much excitement.

 

The Traveler

But National Treasure starring Nicholas Cage was soooo exciting!  Makes Masonry sound cool and all. 

 

[wenglund]

6 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

But National Treasure starring Nicholas Cage was soooo exciting!  Makes Masonry sound cool and all. 

 

...as opposed to Dan Browns, "The Lost Symbol."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[anatess2]

2 minutes ago, wenglund said:

...as opposed to Dan Browns, "The Lost Symbol."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Ugh, Dan Brown.  And you think anti-Mormons are pests.  Imagine being Catholic and having to deal with Dan Brown...

[Guest MormonGator]

LG is in a girls group that is associated with Masons, called Rainbow. She is not in Eastern Star, nor am I a Mason, but we know a ton of them. 

[Overwatch]

7 hours ago, anatess2 said:

But National Treasure starring Nicholas Cage was soooo exciting!  Makes Masonry sound cool and all. 

 

Just imagine memorizing a ton of stuff and wearing black garments. 

[VelvetShadow]

13 hours ago, MormonGator said:

LG is in a girls group that is associated with Masons, called Rainbow. She is not in Eastern Star, nor am I a Mason, but we know a ton of them. 

Very cool, I thought the masons was a total boys club, glad to see they support ladies groups

[Guest MormonGator]

3 hours ago, VelvetShadow said:

Very cool, I thought the masons was a total boys club, glad to see they support ladies groups

I think you have to be a guy to be a mason, but they have Eastern Star and IORG, both are open to female membership. 

[Traveler]

16 hours ago, wenglund said:

...as opposed to Dan Browns, "The Lost Symbol."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

It is interesting what some find to create a concern - Like the Knights Templar that from all accounts no longer exist.  But what about the Knights of Malta (also known as the Knights of St John).  The Knights of St John were created at the same time as the Knights Templar and for the same reasons but the main difference is that the Knights of Malta still exist even today and are recognized by the United Nations as a sovereign entity even though there is no territory (actual country with a border) and so they have diplomatic immunity in what ever country (with borders) they live or visit and observer status at the United Nations.  They cannot be tried for any crime in any country - the only recourse for a crime would be to exile them.  And they cannot hold political office or vote anywhere they live but and this is the really cool thing - They do no have to pay taxes - personal or business nor or they subject to any audits - personal or business.  I do not know but speculate that to be in their order one must be very Catholic - I also speculate that should one renounce the Catholic church to join another would result in a loss of membership.  I speculate this based on their connections to the Vatican and that there have been and are Cardinals that are active in the order - don't know about any Popes.

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

9 hours ago, Overwatch said:

Just imagine memorizing a ton of stuff and wearing black garments. 

That would solve @Returninghome's laundry issues.

[anatess2]

53 minutes ago, Traveler said:

It is interesting what some find to create a concern - Like the Knights Templar that from all accounts no longer exist.  But what about the Knights of Malta (also known as the Knights of St John).  The Knights of St John were created at the same time as the Knights Templar and for the same reasons but the main difference is that the Knights of Malta still exist even today and are recognized by the United Nations as a sovereign entity even though there is no territory (actual country with a border) and so they have diplomatic immunity in what ever country (with borders) they live or visit and observer status at the United Nations.  They cannot be tried for any crime in any country - the only recourse for a crime would be to exile them.  And they cannot hold political office or vote anywhere they live but and this is the really cool thing - They do no have to pay taxes - personal or business nor or they subject to any audits - personal or business.  I do not know but speculate that to be in their order one must be very Catholic - I also speculate that should one renounce the Catholic church to join another would result in a loss of membership.  I speculate this based on their connections to the Vatican and that there have been and are Cardinals that are active in the order - don't know about any Popes.

 

The Traveler

There are only a maximum of 3 people who can be citizens of the Knights of Malta (Sovereign Military Order of Malta or SMOM) - the Chancellor and the 2 Grand Masters.  All other members of the order are citizens of their respective countries fully subject to the laws and taxes of those countries.  The 3 citizens of the Knights of Malta are also citizens of Italy or their home country in the same manner that all citizens of the Vatican are also citizens of Italy or their home country - Pope Benedict being a citizen of Germany and Pope Francis a citizen of Argentina in addition to their Vatican citizenship.  Italian citizenship makes you a subject to Italian law.  The Vatican get tax exemption status by Italian law, but this can change at any moment, especially since Rome is currently running on ginormous debt.   SMOM also has tax exemption status with Italy that Italy can change if they so desire. 

The SMOM citizens or their members holding SMOM diplomatic passports don't get blanket diplomatic immunity unless they're specifically granted such through diplomatic ties between the country and SMOM/UN.  This is the same as the Pope who doesn't get diplomatic immunity unless specifically granted by diplomatic ties between the country and the Vatican.  And, as you have seen with the case of Catholic Priests - you can definitely be charged with a crime by your country regardless of what the Vatican or the SMOM says even when the crime was committed while working on an official capacity.

SMOM members when working under official capacity of the order are issued SMOM diplomatic passports so that they can enter a warzone through the provisions of SMOM treaties instead of their home countries.

You need at least a recommendation from your Bishop and a nomination by a current SMOM member to be part of the organization.  So yes, you need to be an active Catholic - not just a church-going one but a live-the-tenets-of-the-faith one.  Renouncing the faith, of course, puts you in conflict with the principles of the organization.

Edited August 9, 2018 by anatess2

[wenglund]

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

It is interesting what some find to create a concern -

There is also the precursor to Free Masons--i.e Rosicrucianism, which appears to be a Christian outgrowth from mid-eastern mysticism, like Kabbalah, both of which have varying amounts of adherents today.. 

What I find most fascinating, though, isn't so much the sacred found among secret societies, but what has been hidden in plain sight, particularly among royalty, European especially. Take for instance the Coronation of Queen Elizabeth II, which, if I recall correctly, is an ancient ritual dating back to the 4th century AD , most notably the anointing and Investiture ceremonies, which seem eerily reminiscent of one of our own temple rituals with similar purpose.

I am of the opinion that the two may have the same, if not similar ancient origins.

But, don't tell Dan Brown because he will likely distort it to an ungodly extent. (Pun intended)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

[LadyGator]

7 hours ago, MormonGator said:

I think you have to be a guy to be a mason, but they have Eastern Star and IORG, both are open to female membership. 

@MormonGator is right, you have to be male to be a Mason, however there are several groups for women and girls. Ladies can be members of Eastern Star as well as Amaranth. Men can also be members of both of these groups but I believe you have to be a Mason. Young ladies can become members of The International Order of the Rainbow for Girls (IORG) or Job’s Daughters. All of these groups have Masonic affiliation there is also a young men’s group called DeMolay. I’ve grown up around Masons and Shriners and it’s just a harmless adult fraternity, and Gator and I have met one or two that are LDS.