We learned of a weakness at the Council?

[Rob Osborn]

16 hours ago, Traveler said:

I do not follow your correction of doctrine - Satan is a spirit and is incapable of any "carnal natural nature of the flesh" - likewise are all the host that follow him.  Your first post, supposing to call out a correction of doctrine did not mention devilish - only the word carnal.  Perhaps you can explain with "Pure" doctrine how it is the carnal means devilish?  Please explain how it is possible that devils are carnal?  Are you teaching (demanding that it is pure doctrine that Satan has a physical or "CARDNAL" body?

 

The Traveler

Why must you insist that carnal only means physical? You miss the entire point of what the scriptures mean. I am unsure as to what desires and feelings spirits have but I do know that Satan is at least aware of its effect on us as he tempts us to be carnal by nature. The carnal mind is enmity with God. God however has a physical mind just like us. He too has passions just like us. The difference is he isn't carnal like we are because he has overcome that devilish nature.

[Rob Osborn]

13 hours ago, theplains said:

How do you explain the child phase known as "the terrible twos," when they display episodes of temper tantrums and
selfishness to name a few?

Thanks,
Jim

They are learning indeed. But, they are incapable of sin and as such are not spiritually dead, or dead as to the things of the spirit..

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

People can think what they want, I'm probably correct though.

These are the exact words spoken by those whom you accuse of corrupting the doctrine.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Why must you insist that carnal only means physical? You miss the entire point of what the scriptures mean.

On the contrary, he understands it better than you. The word "carnal" means "fleshly". The whole point is that our physical selves are created of the dust of the earth, and have the desires that come with a body created from the dust of the earth. When we speak of "carnal nature", we mean "the nature of the flesh", which the Book of Mormon (and Paul) refer to as the "natural man". Satan encourages and nurtures this natural man, because he can more easily dominate such weakness. But by definition, Satan is not "carnal". God is "carnal" in that sense. The miracle of Jesus is that he is God made into flesh -- in other words, God incarnate.

[Rob Osborn]

32 minutes ago, Vort said:

On the contrary, he understands it better than you. The word "carnal" means "fleshly". The whole point is that our physical selves are created of the dust of the earth, and have the desires that come with a body created from the dust of the earth. When we speak of "carnal nature", we mean "the nature of the flesh", which the Book of Mormon (and Paul) refer to as the "natural man". Satan encourages and nurtures this natural man, because he can more easily dominate such weakness. But by definition, Satan is not "carnal". God is "carnal" in that sense. The miracle of Jesus is that he is God made into flesh -- in other words, God incarnate.

According to scripture, how carnal is actually used, it connotates evil or worldly desire which is incompatible with godliness.

[Vort]

29 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

According to scripture, how carnal is actually used, it connotates evil or worldly desire which is incompatible with godliness.

According to scripture, "carnal" means "of the earth". A good example is in Moses: 1:5:

Quote

Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth.

Note that in the statement above, there is no implication of evil, but a simple statement of fact. We are not evil for not being able to behold the works of God and remain in this state; rather, we are fallen. This fallen state is usually (but not always) contrasted to things of heaven. Consider Paul's teachings:

Quote

The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

But the mere mention of "the flesh" does not "connotate evil or worldly desire which is incompatible with godliness", as you claim. Consider John 6:53:

Quote

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Here, Jesus -- God -- refers to his own flesh as a necessary and Godly thing. There is no evil implicit here in the word. Remember, our word "carnal" comes from Latin, and simply means "fleshy". Consider 1 Peter 4:1-2,6, which read:

Quote

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God...For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Compare the Italian (= modern Latin) version of those verses, especially the phrase "in the flesh":

Quote

Poiché dunque Cristo ha sofferto nella carne, anche voi armatevi di questo stesso pensiero, che, cioè, colui che ha sofferto nella carne ha cessato dal peccato,  per consacrare il tempo che resta da passare nella carne, non più alle concupiscenze degli uomini, ma alla volontà di Dio...Poiché per questo è stato annunziato l’Evangelo anche ai morti; onde fossero bensì giudicati secondo gli uomini quanto alla carne, ma vivessero secondo Dio quanto allo spirito.

Note the word for "flesh" -- carne. That's the same as our root for "carnal". (If you prefer, you can play this same game in Spanish, French, Portuguese, or one of the minor Latin languages and get the same result.)

In short, Rob, you are mistaken. "Carnal" does not inherently mean "evil" and is not uniformly used to indicate something bad. It simply means "of the flesh".

[Rob Osborn]

20 minutes ago, Vort said:

According to scripture, "carnal" means "of the earth". A good example is in Moses: 1:5:

Note that in the statement above, there is no implication of evil, but a simple statement of fact. We are not evil for not being able to behold the works of God and remain in this state; rather, we are fallen. This fallen state is usually (but not always) contrasted to things of heaven. Consider Paul's teachings:

But the mere mention of "the flesh" does not "connotate evil or worldly desire which is incompatible with godliness", as you claim. Consider John 6:53:

Here, Jesus -- God -- refers to his own flesh as a necessary and Godly thing. There is no evil implicit here in the word. Remember, our word "carnal" comes from Latin, and simply means "fleshy". Consider 1 Peter 4:1-2,6, which read:

Compare the Italian (= modern Latin) version of those verses, especially the phrase "in the flesh":

Note the word for "flesh" -- carne. That's the same as our root for "carnal". (If you prefer, you can play this same game in Spanish, French, Portuguese, or one of the minor Latin languages and get the same result.)

In short, Rob, you are mistaken. "Carnal" does not inherently mean "evil" and is not uniformly used to indicate something bad. It simply means "of the flesh".

You are wrong. Does not God himself have a body of flesh and bones? But he isn't carnal. We are commanded to not be carnal. Thus, you are wrong.

[Vort]

8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

You are wrong. Does not God himself have a body of flesh and bones? But he isn't carnal. We are commanded to not be carnal. Thus, you are wrong.

Well. I guess you showed me. Thus saith Rob, so let it be written, so let it be done.

[Rob Osborn]

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters; (Mosiah 27:25)