Not your usual 'I'm having trouble wearing garments' post

[Muslim2Mormon]

I'll begin with the following bits of important information: I am a female convert. I'm a fully active member in good standing. I've been endowed about 3 years. I used to be Muslim, but I did not grow up wearing the hijab (head scarf) or anything other than typical American kid clothes.   For almost two decades, I had *major* health problems.  A new medication and I'm doing *much* better than I was, but I've still got a serious condition that can be challenging and requires a ton of management. Granted, my disabilities are now almost 'invisible'. As a Muslim woman, I wore the hijab and often wore traditional clothing like abayas. As a Mormon woman, I often *do not* wear temple garments. I'm ok with that. My Bishop and a member of the Stake Presidency are ok with that.  My problem is that there are quite a few of my fellow members who make it blatantly obvious that *they* have a problem with *my* not wearing my garments the same way they do!

Before anyone either tells me I should be wearing my garments or that I shouldn't worry about what other think if I'm right with my Bishop and the Lord, I'm posting because 1. Let's be real. Being in a situation where a number of what are supposed to be your brothers and sisters are judging you STINKS!  2. I am not alone - and I'm probably not even in the minority - as a woman who at some points has had legitimate health concerns due to wearing garments. 3. Making people feel uncomfortable at church is basically the opposite of what we, as Saints, are supposed to be doing and while most people would be understanding were I to disclose detailed health information there's *zero* reason I (or anyone else) should being made to feel like that's our only path to acceptance. 4. Yet almost everything one finds online (even here at MormomHub!) is mostly advice to make garments-wearing easier and offering tough-love along the lines of, "Yes, they can be hot and/or uncomfortable. Too bad. Suck it up if you want to keep your recommend." (Not helpful!)  The notable exceptions? [Links redacted as per site rules—JAG]

For the record, I am not advocating setting aside garments in every situation. I am not ever advocating not wearing them simply because they "aren't cute", "are a little uncomfortable", or for any other trivial reason. There are plenty of people who do just need to get used to wearing them. Wearing a hijab in America post 9/11 wasn't exactly comfortable, folks, and I'd have been more comfortable without my head covered on plenty of occasions - and yet I *did* wear it. It took getting used to.  Like garments, a hijab is a constant reminder of God and it's full of symbolism.  There are times when there are solid and acceptable reasons not to wear such things. Thankfully, our Heavenly Father knows each of us and our hearts and our religion tends to promote prayer followed by good sense action! Technically, anyway.  I don't know how to help individual members remember this so I'd love to hear your thoughts.  I cannot get used to LDS garments.  They, quite literally, make me sick at times. What's the best way to convey such information to people? I've yet to find a way that isn't offensive and is respectful towards everyone - including myself! Little help, please?

If you are one of many who cannot, for health reasons, wear either or both of your garments all or even most of the time, please know you are not alone.  Like me, I know many of you wish you were able to wear them 24-7.  Don't feel guilty!  Please!  Whether you're not wearing them on a doctor's advice or because it doesn't take an M.D. degree to figure they cause you horrific rashes, or chronic yeast infections, or other unsavory health problems is irrelevant.  If you've tried the other fabrics, given the matter prayerful contemplation, and been honest during recommend interviews*. It's ok!  Wear them as you can and when you can and the Lord will reward your efforts.  I write these things to remind myself of this as much as for others.  It can be hard not to get down on yourself, especially when members of your church family aren't hiding their scorn.  Saying that's their problem doesn't make it feel any better, I know, but under no circumstances should you be causing yourself harm to fit in!

If your someone for whom garment-wearing comes easily, lucky you!  If you've read this far, thank you. Please remember you've received a blessing some of us haven't. We appreciate your open mind.  Exercising agency to go against the norm so often is a negative in church culture.  This is self-care and an instance where we'd be grateful for recognition that it's an instance where exercising agency to choose differently might be a lot harder and less desirable than I think many people realize.  Hopefully others will chime in with their coping strategies because none of this is easy!

 

* FWIW, my experience has been that I'm usually much more willing to be open about this stuff with my Bishops than they really want me to be!  LOL  I was fortunate to have had a Stake President early on that I had a lot in common with and so became friends with.  He happened to be a physician.  His suggestion was to answer the garment question on the renewal interview with something like: "No. I don't wear them 24-7 for medical reasons, but I do my best and wear them when I can."  Short. Clear. Honest. Doesn't get into graphic details. As he put it, I'm the rare Stake President someone might actually get into the details with, but even then preferably only in my office at work!  Not here!!! 

Edited August 12, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[Just_A_Guy]

My take:

It’s underwear.

If people (aside from the ecclesiastical leaders whose duty it is to ask) even know that you aren’t wearing the garment, it’s either because:

a) they’re visually scrutinizing you at you in ways that are wholly inappropriate, and then asking outrageously nosy questions about very personal stuff.  That’s on them; and you should treat them as the voyeurs that they are.

OR

b) you openly talk (boast?) about the fact that you aren’t wearing the garment; in which case I would ask why you feel it’s so important to flaunt the fact that you are a medical exception to the general rule.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[zil]

42 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

My take:

It’s underwear.

If people (aside from the ecclesiastical leaders whose duty it is to ask) even know that you aren’t wearing the garment, it’s either because:

a) they’re visually scrutinizing you at you in ways that are wholly inappropriate, and then asking outrageously nosy questions about very personal stuff.  That’s on them; and you should treat them as the voyeurs that they are.

OR 

b) you openly talk (boast?) about the fact that you aren’t wearing the garment; in which case I would ask why you feel it’s so important to flaunt the fact that you are a medical exception to the general rule.

c) You are wearing clothing that wouldn't cover the garment, and so it's obvious.  But "outrageously nosy questions" still applies.

[Jane_Doe]

Agreed with the above comments: OP, a random ward member doesn't having any stewardship to say anything (or even know) about when and how you wear your garments.  If someone wants to stick their nose where it doesn't remotely belong, reinforce healthy boundaries and end the conversation.  In the mean time, keep your hear focused on the Lord.  May God be with you.

[Grunt]

None of my business.  However, if asked, my default response would be "wear your garments". If not asked, see sentence one.

[mrmarklin]

Why is the garment question even part of the temple interview.  Is it truly the Bishops or anyone else’s business?

[Fether]

1 minute ago, mrmarklin said:

Why is the garment question even part of the temple interview.  Is it truly the Bishops or anyone else’s business?

As much business as paying tithing, keeping the law of chastity or any other commandment. Can you honestly count yourself worthy to enter the temple when you aren’t keeping the promises you made in the temple (particularly the commandment following the receiving of the garments)?

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, Fether said:

As much business as paying tithing, keeping the law of chastity or any other commandment. Can you honestly count yourself worthy to enter the temple when you aren’t keeping the promises you made in the temple (particularly the commandment following the receiving of the garments)?

I totally agree. 

[Jane_Doe]

13 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Why is the garment question even part of the temple interview.  Is it truly the Bishops or anyone else’s business?

The Bishop is a judge in Israel to help us each come better unto Christ.  This includes striving to keep our covenants.  (striving=key word here).

Random ward member: not their stewardship or business.

[Sunday21]

@Muslim2Mormon Welcome! Glad that you have worked out a system with your Stakepres. The best cure that I found for vaginitis is boric acid made into a paste and applied to the affected region. But yes, sleeping naked and wearing only cotton undies is also recommended. Good luck with the health issues. You may be over sharing with others. I drink coffee for migraines but I share that on a need to know basis. The ‘don’t wear for health reasons’  for bishop/Stake Pres is probably the optimum need to know for garments. As a friend of mine says, ‘Life is not a Talkshow so keep personal info to yourself’.

[person0]

@Muslim2Mormon,

I don't have anything more to offer than what has been said, however, I am curious about your conversion story and background.  I have never been Muslim, but I am of Arab decent, and my father and his entire side of the family are practicing Muslims.  I am so curious as to how you found the Church and came to a knowledge of the truth of the restored gospel.

[Muslim2Mormon]

Interesting how garments do and don't show.  There are clothes that make it difficult to tell whether there are garments on or not, so that's my goal but at least on me it's often super obvious I'm not wearing a top - or at least I think it's super obvious and the fact that I've gotten periodic comment from random sisters would seem to indicate I'm right!  It's not that my clothes are super tight or aren't covering sufficiently.  It's just that through the shoulders there aren't lines where there should be.  I'm incredibly petite, but after years of using a manual wheelchair and doing wheelchair sports I'm crazy muscular.  Again, I'm fine with what I am (and am not) doing in terms of my garments.  To be blunt, I'm pretty sure my Heavenly Father would rather I be healthy, alive, and only wearing my garments in ways that facilitate life and health than wearing them 24-7, unhealthy, and taking chances with my life (literally).

All I'm wanting to do is figure out if there's any way to gently remind people that everyone's situation is different, not to judge, and that it's really none of their business.  More than once murmuring has brought this church to its knees.  Shouldn't we all be supporting one another?  Perhaps a ward without gossip and judgement is a pipe dream, but I'd like to think it's not!  I just don't know what I can say or do or have the Bishop say or...???  Being around some of these people can make church attendance downright unpleasant! 

I've noticed that there are quite a few things many church members seem to feel they've a duty to peer pressure folks into complying with.  Sometimes social pressure is a great mechanism for dealing with problematic behavior.  Being given dirty looks for cursing at church or having your phone go off during sacrament will probably help people remember not to do that again.  Sometimes pressure to conform isn't really a problem, but it's a little silly...men and their white shirts, for example.  Sometimes such pressure is flat out harmful, though.  This is one of those cases.  That I (and the "powers that be") *know* that I can't wear garments 24-7 and fairly ok with that does not mean that I don't wish it were otherwise and feel bad that it's not.  People not fellowshipping normally with me changes nothing about my ability to wear them and helps my feelings about it all not a bit...and I know I'm not the only one in my situation!

[Muslim2Mormon]

@Sunday21  Thanks for the tip, but FWIW vaginitis would be the least of my concerns.    In fact, the bottoms are not typically where I run into trouble. Apparently that makes me the opposite of most women!  LOL 

Trust me, I'd LOVE to keep more to myself!  These people are my ward-mates so I feel like I should respond SOMEhow. I just am trying to figure out my best strategy here.  The problem I run into is that it's often obvious I'm not wearing a top and I've had more than one person say something to me about it. Is that incredibly rude of them?  Yes.  Do I realize that and even try to gently point that out? Yes.  Does it happen anyway and do I expect it will continue to happen?  Yes, but I figured I'd at least gather the insight of others.  I've run into very similar issues with the general public over the years.  This sort of thing has a lot of different looks that all amount to this same concept of 'Don't judge. Stay open minded. Love one another.'  Ex: Being in a wheelchair does not mean I need help and it does not mean I'm feeble minded.  Having a service dog does not mean I'm blind.  Just because someone is disabled does not mean they are uneducated or do not work for a living.  Etc. Etc. Etc.  I'm always amused that people are surprised that when they ask me what's wrong with me I tell them that I enjoy sharing time and that they can go first!!! LOL

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, Muslim2Mormon said:

[1]All I'm wanting to do is figure out if there's any way to gently remind people that everyone's situation is different, not to judge, and that it's really none of their business. 

[2]I've noticed that there are quite a few things many church members seem to feel they've a duty to peer pressure folks into complying with.  Sometimes social pressure is a great mechanism for dealing with problematic behavior.  Being given dirty looks for cursing at church or having your phone go off during sacrament will probably help people remember not to do that again.  Sometimes pressure to conform isn't really a problem, but it's a little silly...men and their white shirts, for example.  Sometimes such pressure is flat out harmful, though.  This is one of those cases.  That I (and the "powers that be") *know* that I can't wear garments 24-7 and fairly ok with that does not mean that I don't wish it were otherwise and feel bad that it's not.  People not fellowshipping normally with me changes nothing about my ability to wear them and helps my feelings about it all not a bit...and I know I'm not the only one in my situation!

1.  No need to be too gentle.  A simple “how did my underwear become the topic of this discussion?” and a friendly nudge, followed by an abrupt change of subject, ought to do the trick nicely. If it doesn’t, proceed (a little louder) to “you must have been checking me out pretty close to notice my underwear.  Are you a lesbian, by chance?”  Bonus points if you can work the phrase “undressing me with your eyes” into the exchange.

2.  Cohesive communities tend to get a little nosy; and there’s a fine line between that nosiness reinforcing a community’s natural strengths versus where it becomes overkill and oppressive.  Mormonism doesn’t have a monopoly on that.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[Muslim2Mormon]

@person0  **Not garment related**

The short version is that after 9/11 things got weird in a few ways that left me shaken and confused. I have always had a strong testimony of God's existence, though, so when things weren't quite adding up and making sense I knew the problem was with the system - not Him and not with my Faith in Him!  I'm half Pakistani, but don't look it - chestnut wavy hair, green eyes, and not especially 'brown' - and I was born and raised a typical American kid. I got the culture and love of the regional cuisine and stuff, but no more than cursory religion.  Couple that with a healthy dose of Americana and I'm about as American as it gets. As I got older and started asking my parents about religion, one of my folks took me to the mosque while the other (a self-proclaimed "recovering Catholic") took me to a bunch of other, mostly Christian, churches for exposure then lost interest.  In my early teens, I again lost interest, but Islam was the logical choice when I again sought religion in college.  I never felt like I was 110% accepted in the Muslim faith community due to my "Americanness" while a lot of Americans viewed me as foreign!  It was a bit odd, but not too bad...then 9/11 rocked our world. There quickly developed an Us/Them mentality.  That was bad enough and still is for a lot of Christians and Muslims alike, but for someone who already didn't quite feel like an Us or a Them and who had people of both sides calling her the other?  It led to a lot of soul searching and sleepless nights.  Our mosque welcoming a new, more radical, Imam was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.  Some of his teachings were way off.  His sermons were difficult to listen to.  Many folks left. New people came in. The people who did stay changed.  I just knew it wasn't right, but that left me very adrift.  I was having regular conversations with the Lord trying to figure out what I was supposed to be doing.  I felt like Islam as I knew it had been hijacked. It was clear to me that that Imam and many others were corrupt and corrupting what originally was a religion of love and peace.  I think many Muslims still do intend and want to live that way, but it's a mess!  How to even know just whose teachings to follow, etc?  I knew deep down that God would have a better plan for me and for all of us, so I was pretty much perfectly primed to become a Latter Day Saint!  All it took was hearing about Joseph Smith's story and experiences for things to fall into place.  

I feel like a lot of Muslims are probably more than ready for the message of the restored gospel.  So much of Islam has direct correlations to aspects of the LDS Church that it's a pretty natural fit or extension.  I wish all the Missionaries got at least a little comparative religion, but I do make sure that at least the ones that come through my area have a clue so they can be that much more effective!

Thanks for asking.

[askandanswer]

Thanks for replying

[askandanswer]

This response is coming from someone who never pays too much attention to what I'm wearing, and even less to what other people are wearing so it might be totally unworkable or inappropriate, but I'll throw it out there for what it's worth. Would it be a solution to wear your garments on top of whatever it is you are wearing that does come into contact with your skin? This way, your skin would be protected from the garments but it would still look like you are wearing garments. And theologically speaking, it may be that wearing the garments, even if not in the prescribed fashion, is better than not wearing them at all. I know this isn't directly addressing your concern of finding a polite way to telling people to mind their own business, but it might be a workable compromise. 

[pwrfrk]

Some people are just so nosy, you wonder how they can manage to live.  Some of the things they ask or talk about, I dunno.  It can be frustrating, but all you can do is not answer.

[Lost Boy]

I am afraid there is probably nothing that you can do.  Perhaps the bishop could mention something in a relief society meeting about not asking members if or why they aren't wearing garments.  That some times there are personal and legitimate reasons not to and it can be aggravating to the person you are asking.

I am guessing this is basically a female issue.  I would find it quite weird for a male to comment to a female whether she is wearing garments or not.  I would find it strange for a guy to ask another guy why he isn't wearing any, but I suppose it would happen.

Anyway, I figure it is none of my business.

I suspect the reason they ask is because they don't want to see you go inactive or something like that.  In a sense it is their way of showing concern for you.  I don't think most would be judging you as a bad person, but just wondering why.  And that is why you might talk with the bishop to see if he can't have a generic discussion talking about these things with the ladies.

[Muslim2Mormon]

@Just_A_Guy

I read your response last night and started crying I was laughing so hard, but I didn't get a chance to post until now - and I'm still laughing!  "How did my underwear become a topic of conversation?"  LOVE! 

I guess I just worry about being rude even though I wasn't the one who was rude first.  Odd, because I don't have such a hang up with rude disability related comments and questions!  My attitude there is that a rude and snoopy questioner deserves a mocking answer.  Gets the point across, usually!  I just need to figure out how to expand that attitude to this issue, apparently!

(Though I do like Lost Boy's suggestion about a reminder of some sort from RS Pres. or Bishop.)

[estradling75]

Welcome @Muslim2Mormon.

While snappy come backs might be what you need...  I think you also need to realize just about all time spend complaining about how people should be doing better is largely a waste.  We (even Bishop's and Stake Presidents) have limited to zero control over other people actions and choices.  All the complaining in the world will not change this.   So we need to develop a different strategy for dealing with it.  Take for example the life of Christ... he was the perfect example of a 'Christ-like' person... He did everything he was suppose to do... and we still crucified him.   So when you are feeling down, annoyed, put upon, and wish members would just get a clue... remember Christ knows exactly how you feel and he had it worse.

[anatess2]

@Muslim2Mormon, I have no advice except to forgive them for they know not what they do.

I just thought your story was great.  I feel blessed that you were able to share it with me.

[Sunday21]

I have to think that someone who is commenting on someone’s garments or lack-there-of has quite a few problems. Such a person is really colouring outside the lines. This person probably goes through life offending a lot of people and causing some pretty serious problems for themselves. From observation, there is very little that can be done for these people in the short term and it can take decades to have any impact. 

My ward has a guy who loved aftershave although the leaders begged him not to wear it because some in the ward had serious allergies. He even walked up to a sister who wore a mask due to scarring on the lungs from her scent allergy, apologized for wearing scent and enveloped her in a bear hug. A decade later the sister has asked permission to attend another ward because my current ward has too many members who will not do the scent-free thing. This is after so may announcements about the need to be scent free, I cannot count them. The scented Bro on the other hand has had a lot of job issues. 

If people are really dense, there is little that you can do to change them.

[Everyone is a Convert]

Thank you for sharing. This is the first post I have ever read something that speaks to the issue plainly. I am in a similar situation, in which wearing in the garments day and night is medically impossible. I always agonize about going in for a new temple recommend for this reason alone. As I was praying and pondering, I felt the distinct impression that Heavenly Father knows my heart. I fell further at peace and will plan to use your recommended phrase, “No. I don't wear them 24-7 for medical reasons, but I do my best and wear them when I can." 

Thank you for having the courage to share your story and experiences with others. 

[zil2]

Welcome to ThirdHour, @Everyone is a Convert!