Results of the Flood


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5 minutes ago, Fether said:

I just want to stress a point to argue your comment. How often, in movies with dinosaurs, do we see a massive T-Rex, or any other type of scary dinosaur, leave a massive carcass of freshly killed meat to chase a single or even a couple humans?

It seems to me there is some sort of malicious intent and desire to hunt and kill specifically humans

Yes, movies are indeed wonderful reflections of reality - why else would I have had Brontey concoct such evil intent?

Alternate answer: T-Rex has a 2-second attention span.  "Munch, munch, munch--ooh, squirrel."

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14 hours ago, theplains said:

I saw this posted on the Internet:

How old is the oldest dinosaur ever found?
Answer: Recent prosauropods from Madagascar are the oldest, about 230 million years old. Until recently, the oldest dinosaur
found was Eoraptor (from Argentina) - it is about 228 million years old. For more information on Eoraptor,

It's amazing how they can speculate it was about 230 million years old instead of 225 million.

Jim
 

And yet still call it "science". I'm not sure they even realize just how long 5,000,000 years really are.

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On 8/14/2018 at 1:47 PM, MrShorty said:

The creationists among would say that it is not only possible, but probable that radiometric dating is completely bogus. There is a report out there that Dr. Henry Eyring once sat down with Joseph Fielding Smith to discuss these issues, and he (a chemist) could not convince Elder Smith (a fairly staunch young earth creationist) that radiometric dating had any validity. They apparently agreed to disagree and went on their separate ways.

Those of us who have been blinded by modern science would probably say something like radiometric data does have uncertainty in it (like any measurement method), but there is not enough uncertainty to have dinosaurs and hominids co-existing on the planet at the same time (except for those who want to be pedantic and remind us that birds could technically be classified as dinosaurs and, obviously, we co-exist with birds even today).

From there, the long and painful and never ending debate between creationist and evolutionist continues with no resolution or reconciliation in sight.

I term myself a Theistic Evolutionist.... by that I mean that 

G-d in a sense "Evolved" which I take to mean got better and better and better at creation of all kinds of life forms

and galaxies and planets and such.  

I believe that Adam and Eve were created by The Elohim.... before the creation of Adam and Eve the Elohim also

created many angels......  and i like the description of how and why Lucifer led a rebellion in heaven as shown to near death experiencer Richard Eby.  

https://www.near-death.com/science/articles/richard-eby-and-secomd-coming-of-christ.html#a03

 

Quote

 

Jesus hesitated as I tried to capture the immensity of his explanations.

"You must understand, my son, that original creation mirrored the composition and perfection of Person-God. All creation vibrated in unison with us! There was total accord and harmony everywhere as the whole creation was resonating with and in God!

"Each separate thing or being thus carried out an appointed task in our scheme for the universe. A heaven-form of music resulted as even the stars sang in their appointed circuits. Here in paradise you are hearing these melodious vibrations directly upon your new mind, undistorted. On Earth you heard distorted sounds through the air waves. Throughout heaven the music flows from my throne, uninterrupted, undefiled, and peace-giving."

Jesus paused again.

"My book tells of the time when Lucifer's rebellion in heaven changed some things. He sought to usurp my Father's throne, assume his position as the most high God, and to rule the universe. For that blasphemy Lucifer was cast from heaven to Earth; in fact, I saw him fall as a bolt of lightning! In a tantrum of hate and rage over being deposed so fast he and his fallen angels disfigured our perfect Earth. It became void and uninhabitable. For punishment befitting his enemy of God, Lucifer was given a new name, Satan, since he was the self-appointed 'adversary' of the Almighty. Anything that God had made, Satan would attempt to destroy from then on. As Lucifer he had been created the highest angel about the throne, one of his assignments and talents being the chief musician in charge of worship and music. In his rebellious anger he set about destroying harmony on and in the Earth from then on. That is why the Earth where he operates now is out of harmony with God's other creations. In my book we call this disharmony 'sin', because it defies God's will that even the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament show his handiwork.

"But be of good cheer, my son. The Father has permitted me to overcome Satan's world system of sin, and to destroy the works of Satan, and to re-establish righteousness in the hearts of my friends. Eventually in his chosen time he will restore all creation as it once was, in him!"


 

 

Until a couple of months ago I hadn't read your idea about Adam pre-existing as the Arch-Angel Michael.......

but I do love that theory and think that it would fit perfectly with the other material that I got into over the past thirty years of reading NDE accounts and related information. 

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On 8/15/2018 at 8:46 PM, Fether said:

I just want to stress a point to argue your comment. How often, in movies with dinosaurs, do we see a massive T-Rex, or any other type of scary dinosaur, leave a massive carcass of freshly killed meat to chase a single or even a couple humans?

It seems to me there is some sort of malicious intent and desire to hunt and kill specifically humans

We are tasty!

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On 8/14/2018 at 1:54 PM, Anddenex said:

I think it is important to note the giants spoken of are not dinosaurs. They were humans (very tall humans - I wouldn't be surprised if these were what we call now Neanderthals), by which I believe Goliath was mentioned to be a descendant of (if I am remembering correctly).

Although, I may not see eye to eye with @Vort, @MrShorty, and others -- I do not consider myself one of the children spoken of (although they may say otherwise ;) )

Most creationists I speak with do not believe radioactive dating as completely bogus, they just don't see it as absolute without error. I would agree with this sentiment with regards to carbon dating. Let me provide an example of carbon dating my friend shares with me when he was a student at the University of Utah (Yes, I know, he has a handicap already but bear with his story anyway). They created a fossil in their lab through machines. In order to test carbon dating they took the fossil to the research department who then carbon dated the fossil to be thousands of years old. It was created within that same week.

Then any creationist would ask, "How accurate then is carbon dating"? This should be asked by anyone seeking after truth.

Second question, if God is able to extend a day, would carbon dating recognize the extended day (or extended period) as one day or multiple days?

We have other examples of carbon dating (at least from what I read previously) where it dates the same animal parts differently. I am open to any new findings on these, but the ones I read are always from the extreme opposite, which of course is going to provide something different.

EDIT - I would be more interested in the term "beasts" used in scriptures. It has been said by some that the dinosaurs were part of the "beasts" in scripture.

How would Goliath be a descendant of the giants when they would have been killed off by the flood? 

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7 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

How would Goliath be a descendant of the giants when they would have been killed off by the flood? 

Great question, and something that isn't really hard to think through; however, as my response specifies I am not sure if I am remembering the scripture that specified Goliath's heritage correctly. At this moment, through a quick search I am not able to find it either. So we have the following options:

1) The easiest one is that one of the daughters-in-law was a descendant of the giants, as the giants were living during Noah's day.

2) Noah's wife could have been a daughter, grand-daughter, great-daughter of the giants also

3) Figure of speech in the Bible that is simply specifying that Goliath was of a similar gene pool that allowed him to be tall, not that he necessarily was a descendant.

As you can see from my avatar I am white, and yet my DNA stemming from my father has African American DNA. So somewhere down my line, my ancestry, would be someone who was African American descent. A giant didn't need to survive, only a offspring, so not really hard to think through if Goliath did indeed stem from the giants during Noah's time.

The giants themselves, now that is an interesting thought. Were the giants from Adam? That would be a more intriguing question. This is why I am personally intrigued by @Traveler theory of the garden within the 4th dimension. I think there is merit to his thought, not that I have received any spiritual witness, but definitely an intriguing idea/theory surrounding Adam and Eve, this earth, etc...

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On ‎8‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 9:28 PM, Anddenex said:

. This is why I am personally intrigued by @Traveler theory of the garden within the 4th dimension. I think there is merit to his thought, not that I have received any spiritual witness, but definitely an intriguing idea/theory surrounding Adam and Eve, this earth, etc...

 

I have thought about posting more concerning dimensional theory concerning things spiritual.  Perhaps I should start a thread about spiritual dimensions, Dark Matter, Dark Energy, ordinances and spirit matter.  I have not provided very much explanation nor has there been much of a discussion or even questions.  Without knowing if there is interest – I will speak anyway - First I would speak to dimension and the idea of what would happen with the addition of a 4th dimension.  Let’s begin with addressing a little of the science of two dimensional space.  In theory our space time is warped or curved.  If we think of our earth as a 2 dimensional curved plain – then we end up with a 3 dimensional sphere.  And on our sphere any particular location is established by a set of two coordinates.  We call these latitudes and longitudes.

If we add another dimension (which is the current understanding of our universe) since space is curved our universe becomes a 4 dimensional sphere.  If we map our universe we can locate where we are with coordinates.  There must be e coordinates to isolate where we are in 3 dimensional space.  If we can only see our universe in 3 dimensions then there can be many (in fact infinite) other locations from 4 dimensional space at the same 3 dimensional space or coordinates.   In quantum mechanics when there are two or more things in the same 3 dimensional coordinates – we call that kind of matter fermions. 

Interestingly multiple spirit matter is capable of occupying the same 3 dimensional physical space.  A unique and single physical body can house many spirit bodies.  So the question is – is spirit matter fermions?  Or do they include another dimension which allows many spirits to be in the same 3 dimensional physical space.  In science we have identified light as something made up of what we call fermions – it is also interesting to me that scripture equates spirit as light.

I have already spoke to coordinates.  This is defined as the intersection of two or more ordinates. Ordinates are specific elements that orientate our position in dimension.  From religious revelation (from G-d) we are given ordinances that orientate our 3 dimensional physical self to that which is spiritual.  The root meaning of the word ordinate and ordinances has the same meaning.  Thus we can think of ordinances as an alignment of our 3 dimensional physical entity to our 4th dimensional spiritual part.  Also in scripture we reference our spiritual part as holy, whole, complete and perfect.  These terms are all synonymous as that which completes us – or orientates to our rightful place.

When I first encountered the idea of 4 dimensional space as a possible reference to spiritual things – I did so almost exclusively mathematically as an alternate explanation of quantum weirdness.  Once I discovered mathematical connections I was very happy with myself – then I discovered that scripture speaks of spirit as though it was a 4th dimension.  I have come to believe that these are not actually my thoughts but seem to be a connection beyond our 3 dimensions.  In other words coming from the very 4th dimension that I wondered and continue to wonder about.

From the scientific side – I believe it is possible to solve the universal field theory of forces as well as bringing a connection of Dark Matter and Dark Energy to explain not just large galaxies and super clusters as well as the uncertainty principle and the orders of sub-atomic particles.  That what scripture calls “the Light of Christ” is a power and force that orders and connects all things and is the power of creation.  And why it is invisible in 3 dimensional space time - perhaps because it is spiritual which is another dimension and yet that hidden part that defines, orders and maintains our universe as directed by G-d.

 

The Traveler

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47 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

I have thought about posting more concerning dimensional theory concerning things spiritual.  Perhaps I should start a thread about spiritual dimensions, Dark Matter, Dark Energy, ordinances and spirit matter.  I have not provided very much explanation nor has there been much of a discussion or even questions.  Without knowing if there is interest – I will speak anyway - First I would speak to dimension and the idea of what would happen with the addition of a 4th dimension.  Let’s begin with addressing a little of the science of two dimensional space.  In theory our space time is warped or curved.  If we think of our earth as a 2 dimensional curved plain – then we end up with a 3 dimensional sphere.  And on our sphere any particular location is established by a set of two coordinates.  We call these latitudes and longitudes.

If we add another dimension (which is the current understanding of our universe) since space is curved our universe becomes a 4 dimensional sphere.  If we map our universe we can locate where we are with coordinates.  There must be e coordinates to isolate where we are in 3 dimensional space.  If we can only see our universe in 3 dimensions then there can be many (in fact infinite) other locations from 4 dimensional space at the same 3 dimensional space or coordinates.   In quantum mechanics when there are two or more things in the same 3 dimensional coordinates – we call that kind of matter fermions. 

Interestingly multiple spirit matter is capable of occupying the same 3 dimensional physical space.  A unique and single physical body can house many spirit bodies.  So the question is – is spirit matter fermions?  Or do they include another dimension which allows many spirits to be in the same 3 dimensional physical space.  In science we have identified light as something made up of what we call fermions – it is also interesting to me that scripture equates spirit as light.

I have already spoke to coordinates.  This is defined as the intersection of two or more ordinates. Ordinates are specific elements that orientate our position in dimension.  From religious revelation (from G-d) we are given ordinances that orientate our 3 dimensional physical self to that which is spiritual.  The root meaning of the word ordinate and ordinances has the same meaning.  Thus we can think of ordinances as an alignment of our 3 dimensional physical entity to our 4th dimensional spiritual part.  Also in scripture we reference our spiritual part as holy, whole, complete and perfect.  These terms are all synonymous as that which completes us – or orientates to our rightful place.

When I first encountered the idea of 4 dimensional space as a possible reference to spiritual things – I did so almost exclusively mathematically as an alternate explanation of quantum weirdness.  Once I discovered mathematical connections I was very happy with myself – then I discovered that scripture speaks of spirit as though it was a 4th dimension.  I have come to believe that these are not actually my thoughts but seem to be a connection beyond our 3 dimensions.  In other words coming from the very 4th dimension that I wondered and continue to wonder about.

From the scientific side – I believe it is possible to solve the universal field theory of forces as well as bringing a connection of Dark Matter and Dark Energy to explain not just large galaxies and super clusters as well as the uncertainty principle and the orders of sub-atomic particles.  That what scripture calls “the Light of Christ” is a power and force that orders and connects all things and is the power of creation.  And why it is invisible in 3 dimensional space time - perhaps because it is spiritual which is another dimension and yet that hidden part that defines, orders and maintains our universe as directed by G-d.

 

The Traveler

I watched a video on 4th dimension and how a person in the 4th dimension is able to appear as if walking through walls in the 3rd dimension. I have wondered about these conduits that are often described when an angel or Christ has appeared. The 4th dimension potentially gives insight to this, but again, having had no spiritual witness (nor proper study and knowledge) it is a very intriguing idea that possibly explains an aspect of God's space and time.

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9 hours ago, Anddenex said:

I watched a video on 4th dimension and how a person in the 4th dimension is able to appear as if walking through walls in the 3rd dimension. I have wondered about these conduits that are often described when an angel or Christ has appeared. The 4th dimension potentially gives insight to this, but again, having had no spiritual witness (nor proper study and knowledge) it is a very intriguing idea that possibly explains an aspect of God's space and time.

Initially, for me, the possibility of a 4th dimension explains a lot more about the puzzles of science than it does religion.  Our current understanding of the cosmos is only capable of explaining about 5% of what has been observed.  In other words science has discovered that what we do not know has a greater impact on reality than what we do and that there is 20 times the stuff that we cannot see or otherwise detect than what we can.   Since there is 20 times as much of the invisible stuff and the stuff we sense - we should have been able to locate some of this invisible stuff.  Even our solar system must be full of it but we cannot (have not) locate any.

Of course this is theory - and I do not have proof.  If I could get a hold of a supercollider  I believe I could prove or disprove the existence of a 4th dimension based on intersecting fields created by high velocity particles rather than the particles themselves.  There are some rare high energy particles called cosmic rays - which are not rays but ion-particles traveling at very near the speed of light.  Science has no theory yet for an origin with the exception of the Big Bang - but that was a long time ago and the universe would have slowed down the particles by now - unless the source is not in our 3 dimensional space time.

 

The Traveler

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I wanted to add something else in regards to the Book of Genesis.   We are warned in scripture that G-d thinks differently than man.  This warning concerns understanding revelation that comes from G-d.  The warning is that the “things” of G-d are spiritually discerned.  Despite this warning there is a tendency to comprehend spiritual “things” through the looking glass of our physical experiences.  This may sound odd coming from me and my tendency to align my thinking with empirical evidence.  But for me that is exactly the problem.  The lack of empirical evidence to support the “standard” or “traditional” way of interpreting scripture.  Let me give a little example.  We are told in scripture that Jesus is “the good shepherd”.   However, the reality is that Jesus never tended sheep – he was never a shepherd, let alone a good one.

The problem is that when the scriptures call Jesus “the good shepherd” it is a metaphor of something else.  Indeed it is not uncommon for G-d to use metaphor in teaching important principles.  Jesus even told his disciples why they method is so critical and important to G-d in teaching man. 

I believe the garden epoch is no more historical than Jesus being a shepherd and at the same time no less critical to understanding the divine plan of salvation than it is to understand Jesus as our spiritual shepherd.   Some points to ponder.  The Hebrew meaning of the name of Adam is already a metaphor for all mankind.  Already terms being used are a metaphor for us all.  I believe it is important to understand that all of us existed as an intelligent entity before we were physically born.  G-d did not make us to be what we are – we have always been what and who we are.

In the plan of G-d – Adam is the metaphor of how we  came to earth as mortals that will die.  My father use to tell me that it was not enough to do the right things – that I had to learn to do the right thing for the right reason.  In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we learn and are told that it was the right and necessary thing for “Adam” man to fall and experience good from evil to obtain the knowledge of both good and evil.  It is my understanding that Satan beguiled Adam and Eve (us) into doing the right thing but for the wrong reason.  It is my belief that even today almost all sin is an extension of that initial discerption.   To think it is okay for us to do something (because of our circumstance) that we should not.  Often that something is the right thing – but always Satan deceives us into doing whatever it is that we do but for the wrong reason.

 

The Traveler

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3 hours ago, Traveler said:

I wanted to add something else in regards to the Book of Genesis.   We are warned in scripture that G-d thinks differently than man.  This warning concerns understanding revelation that comes from G-d.  The warning is that the “things” of G-d are spiritually discerned.  Despite this warning there is a tendency to comprehend spiritual “things” through the looking glass of our physical experiences.  This may sound odd coming from me and my tendency to align my thinking with empirical evidence.  But for me that is exactly the problem.  The lack of empirical evidence to support the “standard” or “traditional” way of interpreting scripture.  Let me give a little example.  We are told in scripture that Jesus is “the good shepherd”.   However, the reality is that Jesus never tended sheep – he was never a shepherd, let alone a good one.

The problem is that when the scriptures call Jesus “the good shepherd” it is a metaphor of something else.  Indeed it is not uncommon for G-d to use metaphor in teaching important principles.  Jesus even told his disciples why they method is so critical and important to G-d in teaching man. 

I believe the garden epoch is no more historical than Jesus being a shepherd and at the same time no less critical to understanding the divine plan of salvation than it is to understand Jesus as our spiritual shepherd.   Some points to ponder.  The Hebrew meaning of the name of Adam is already a metaphor for all mankind.  Already terms being used are a metaphor for us all.  I believe it is important to understand that all of us existed as an intelligent entity before we were physically born.  G-d did not make us to be what we are – we have always been what and who we are.

In the plan of G-d – Adam is the metaphor of how we  came to earth as mortals that will die.  My father use to tell me that it was not enough to do the right things – that I had to learn to do the right thing for the right reason.  In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we learn and are told that it was the right and necessary thing for “Adam” man to fall and experience good from evil to obtain the knowledge of both good and evil.  It is my understanding that Satan beguiled Adam and Eve (us) into doing the right thing but for the wrong reason.  It is my belief that even today almost all sin is an extension of that initial discerption.   To think it is okay for us to do something (because of our circumstance) that we should not.  Often that something is the right thing – but always Satan deceives us into doing whatever it is that we do but for the wrong reason.

 

The Traveler

Metaphors are great and can teach us great truths. The sheep and shepherd analogy works because sheep are generally very obedient to their shepherds voice, even when they get lost. Goats on the other hand are devious and two faced. Thus why Satans followers are goats. Adam and the garden are reality though. There was a real first man on this earth. His name was Adam. There really is a garden of Eden on this earth, its a real physical place with actual trees that God planted there.

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Metaphors are great and can teach us great truths. The sheep and shepherd analogy works because sheep are generally very obedient to their shepherds voice, even when they get lost. Goats on the other hand are devious and two faced. Thus why Satans followers are goats. Adam and the garden are reality though. There was a real first man on this earth. His name was Adam. There really is a garden of Eden on this earth, its a real physical place with actual trees that God planted there.

According to the Book of Mormon one of the trees that  you claim is an actual trees (Tree of Life) is not even in Eden and there is an iron rode that will get you there - without dealing with an angelic being with a flaming sword.  All metaphoric. 

 

The Traveler

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Little lesson in ancient Hebrew.  When speaking of the first born male it comes from the root "B-K-R" - This also relates to first fruits and firstlings of a flock which plays great importance in the offering of sacrifices.  Contrary to popular thinking this use of "first" does not necessary refer to the oldest but rather to the best or most noble.  Thus the symbolism in offering sacrifice is to offer the "best" that one has.  The exact same terminology and meaning is used to describe Adam as the "First man" which carries the most noble man and the "best" man.   One very interesting aspect of scripture and metaphoric representation is that in every case where two brothers claimed the birth right - it went to the younger (which was the most noble) and not the older or the "first" as many try to interpret  sacred metaphors they do not understand. 

 

The Traveler

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8 hours ago, Traveler said:

According to the Book of Mormon one of the trees that  you claim is an actual trees (Tree of Life) is not even in Eden and there is an iron rode that will get you there - without dealing with an angelic being with a flaming sword.  All metaphoric. 

 

The Traveler

Just saying that the Tree of life in Eden is an actual tree. That's all.

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11 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Just saying that the Tree of life in Eden is an actual tree. That's all.

I think you are confused with what the "Love of G-d" actually is.  I also submit that the serpent in the Eden epoch is a metaphor for Satan.  My point is that we know there are metaphors beyond any shadow of any doubt in the Eden epoch.  

 

The Traveler

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2 hours ago, Traveler said:

I think you are confused with what the "Love of G-d" actually is.  I also submit that the serpent in the Eden epoch is a metaphor for Satan.  My point is that we know there are metaphors beyond any shadow of any doubt in the Eden epoch.  

 

The Traveler

Im not confused. All I was saying is there are actual trees that God planted in the Garden of Eden which is also an actual physical place.

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11 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im not confused. All I was saying is there are actual trees that God planted in the Garden of Eden which is also an actual physical place.

Is there also a talking snake there too?

 

The Traveler

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9 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Maybe Heavenly Father is just a metaphor.

Ridiculous arguments here....

If you are suggesting that there are no scriptural metaphors for Heavenly Father - It is you my confused friend that is using a ridiculous argument.   Now I must apologize - We should be able to discuss this without personal attacks - Agreed? 

Lets start again - I will ask a question - Is it you perception that there are no metaphors in the Eden epoch?

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

If you are suggesting that there are no scriptural metaphors for Heavenly Father - It is you my confused friend that is using a ridiculous argument.   Now I must apologize - We should be able to discuss this without personal attacks - Agreed? 

Lets start again - I will ask a question - Is it you perception that there are no metaphors in the Eden epoch?

 

The Traveler

The Tree of Life was an actual tree that was planted by God. That's all I was saying. Didn't want someone coming in here and thinking it was just mythical. That's all my friend.

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16 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

We aren't talking about talking snakes we are talking about the tree God planted.

Which you are insisting is a literal, rooted, wood-composed tree growing in the soil of the garden of Eden. You use the term "actual trees", so it's perfectly reasonable to ask if you insist also that there was an "actual serpent".

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2 hours ago, Vort said:

Which you are insisting is a literal, rooted, wood-composed tree growing in the soil of the garden of Eden. You use the term "actual trees", so it's perfectly reasonable to ask if you insist also that there was an "actual serpent".

God planted the trees. They arent merely metaphorical or mythical trees.

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