Resurrection of the body


Guest Ian Hall
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11 minutes ago, Fether said:

Great question!!

So a few very important reasons

- Obviously the Atonement, where Christ suffered and died for all of our sins as well as his personal resurrection.

 

- Introduction of the higher law and fulfillment of the law of loses (Matthew 5:17 https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/5?lang=eng) note: we use the King James Version in its purity

- The initiation of missionary work in the spirit world (which includes the differentiation of spirit prison and spirit paradise) (1 Peter 3: 18-20 https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3.1-17?lang=eng#0)

- Establish his church as it had fallen into apastasy like some many times before (Matthew 16:18 https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/16?lang=eng)

Between Christ’s death and resurrection he was in the spirit world teaching to the dead. This is discussed in 1 Peter 3 as mentioned above and expounded upon in the abook of Mormon in Alma 40 (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/40?lang=eng)

 

These are all awesome.  For the purposes of this discussion I, personally would distill it all down to this:  The first coming of Jesus Christ is what made Him Jesus Christ, and locked in His power to save as many as are willing to be saved. 

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1 hour ago, Ian Hall said:

@bytebear  Please let more knowledgeable people comment please.

I assume then this means you probably should stop commenting as everyone on here who has been posting is more knowledgeable than you pertaining to LDS doctrine, and you wonder why in the beginning people question your motives?

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22 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

These are all awesome.  For the purposes of this discussion I, personally would distill it all down to this:  The first coming of Jesus Christ is what [confirmed] Him Jesus Christ, and locked in His power to save as many as are willing to be saved. 

This may be semantics, but I think the notion of "confirming' Him Jesus Christ is more accurate than Him being "made." Just possibly a personal preference of word usage. :)

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2 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

This may be semantics, but I think the notion of "confirming' Him Jesus Christ is more accurate than Him being "made." Just possibly a personal preference of word usage. :)

I think the whole idea is off... but not sure why haha. He was still Christ/messiah prior to this life and the power of the Atonement is retroactive. The war in heaven was won by the blood of Christ (can’t remember this reference off hand).

But his earthly ministry is what made this all possible... even though before his earthly ministry he could do what the ministry made possible... one day the dimension of time will be opened to us

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4 minutes ago, Fether said:

I think the whole idea is off... but not sure why haha. He was still Christ/messiah prior to this life and the power of the Atonement is retroactive. The war in heaven was won by the blood of Christ (can’t remember this reference off hand).

But his earthly ministry is what made this all possible... even though before his earthly ministry he could do what the ministry made possible... one day the dimension of time will be opened to us

Which is one of the reasons why I think it's possible events aren't really sequential - or one could say that I believe in time travel (except I don't see it that way).  Of course, the mortal mind cannot comprehend these things even if they are possible, but it's fun to try.

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1 minute ago, zil said:

Find a thread that someone hasn't derailed and you'll find a thread no one participates in.  Derailment is like the national pastime here.

I agree! 

Mans you are our nations olympic representatives for it

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16 minutes ago, Fether said:

I think the whole idea is off... but not sure why haha. He was still Christ/messiah prior to this life and the power of the Atonement is retroactive. The war in heaven was won by the blood of Christ (can’t remember this reference off hand).

But his earthly ministry is what made this all possible... even though before his earthly ministry he could do what the ministry made possible... one day the dimension of time will be opened to us

I, honestly, would agree with @Just_A_Guy's thought here, excluding the word I changed (at least from what I understood JAG was meaning).  All were waiting for the time of Christ and for his coming. His atonement confirmed him to be the long foretold Savior -- their God.

Although we knew and there was no doubt by God, Christ fulfilling all foretold prophecies locked the ability for him to be the first to rise and then resurrect all others who were apart of the first resurrection, thus saving all who would look upon Him and live.

So, I thought the condensed statement was accurate, but you may have thought or interpreted it different than I, thus feeling it was off. :)

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4 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

My background is philosophy with a focus on metaphysics and epistemology.

Wohoo, my type of person!  And you ask some awesome questions.  I'm going to go through and try to address them all hopefully with a full-picture approach.  I apologize if I cover material other folks have also touched on, I'll be responding as I go and want to cover things well.  Let me know if I miss any questions. 

4 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

@Just_A_GuyThe reason I used the phrase end of time is because there is so much ambiguity and seemingly contradictory claims between what I read and the source material.  If matter is eternal there can be no end of time.  But then again Mormon sites indicate a second coming at the end of time. 

Terminology clarification: the phrase "end of times" refers to the Second coming and other eschatological events. It is the end of this world as we know it, and the dawn of the new era.  The phrase is not to be understood as literally time ending (this is true of all Christian branches).  

A timeline overview of eschatological events as LDS believe them:

1) Christ's second coming

2) Bodily resurrection of everyone

3) A thousand year millennium of joy, peace, and Christ's personally reigning.  Satan is bound.  All things become known.  Great celebration and worship.  

4) Satan is let loose on the Earth for a short time.

5) The Final Judgement and perfecting of bodies.  People receive their various crowns / degrees of glory, and then continue to worship God in that capacity-- it's not literally the end of time.  I'll talk more about that in the next post. 

4 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

@Just_A_Guy What requirement does the second coming accomplish?

Christ physically returning to the Earth is the inaugural event of the above series of events.  He is the firstborn of the grave from His original resurrection, and He bodily return precedes the bodily resurrection of everyone else.

7 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

Is this final judgement a particular or general judgement?

During the Final Judgement, every person in the world is judged individually.  So, Mike gets judged individually, then Steve, then Sally....etc.  Honestly I picture this taking quite a while.  

7 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

Given these, when does the bodily resurrection occur?  Does it occur soon after death?  If it does not occur soon after death, what condition should be met for the bodily resurrection occur?

Everyone is resurrected after Christ's second coming, before the 1000 year millennium (see above timeline).  

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7 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

Greetings

Do Mormons believe in a final judgement that occurs at the end of time?

Is this final judgement a particular or general judgement?

If Mormons believe in the final judgement at the end of time, that would make any sense given the doctrine of eternal progression and the eternity of the universe.

Given these, when does the bodily resurrection occur?  Does it occur soon after death?  If it does not occur soon after death, what condition should be met for the bodily resurrection occur?

short answer is yes and yes.
long answer:

the resurrection started with the resurrection of jesus christ, and if god requires a person to be resurrected before the second coming they can be.... however for the grand majority of the human race the resurrection begins at the at the second coming of christ, with those who are judged as righteus to be resurrected at the beginning of the 1000 year reign of christ, and for those who die during that reign to be changed "in the twinkling of an eye" to quote scripture. at the end of the reign will the rest be resurrected and judged with those who've completely rejected god to be resurrected and judged lastly and then sent to their final state and place. All will be resurrected including the wicked to be followed by a final judgement.

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(Continued from above, addressing more questions I found in this thread)

2 hours ago, Fether said:

During the second coming, Christ will reign upon the earth, it will mark the beginning of the millennium. As far as what will occur during the millennium... probably frisbee golf, missionary work, taking family out for birthday dinner, lots of family history work so we can baptize those that never received the gospel. Men and women will be resurrected in order of righteousness.

It deals with those on earth. No one goes to the celestial kingdom until after final judgment (at the end of the millennium).

I will also confirm that @Fether's words here are accurate as to actual LDS doctrinal belief.  Except for the frisbee golf part- that's him be hopeful (but it does sound fun!!).

2 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

So what did the first coming accomplish?  Nothing of substantial consequence?  

@Fether and @Just_A_Guy hit this answer out of the park already.

2 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

  What was happening to those who died before the first coming? 

Christ's atonement, saving sacrifice, and gift covers ALL men, regardless of when they lived.  

3 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

Can you clarify specifically as to what occurs at the second coming?  Does it deal with only persons here on earth?  Or does it deal with those in the celestial kingdom as well? 

After Christ's second coming, everyone who has ever lived is resurrected and living on Earth for those thousand years until the Final Judgement comes.  The Celestial Kingdom doesn't come into play yet.

 

 

**** Ok, now done talking about eschatological events.   Moving on to the next subject of eternal progression ****

5 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

An explanation of eternal progression can be found here:  http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Eternal_Progression

This is a good source, but I would more recommend these two: 

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-47-exaltation?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng

They give the fuller picture, background, and stay focused on core things more.  The "Encyclopedia on Mormonism"  is a good source, but not great.

 

 

Now, the Celestial Kingdom (and rest of the Kingdoms) are post-epistemological events.  The Second Coming, resurrection, Millennium, Final Judgement, etc have all come and gone, and we're on to the next chapter of existence / events.  

Those individuals whom fully accepted Christ and His saving gift are made perfect like Him.  Everything that God has He shared with us.  Our collective glory, knowledge, and works continue to grow.  What this all looks like, we don't know right now -- frankly, I don't think we can remotely understand it.  

 

***Ok, I think I got all the questions.  Please let me know if you have any more or I missed some.  I like your inquisitive mind ****

 

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7 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

After Christ's second coming, everyone who has ever lived is resurrected and living on Earth for those thousand years until the Final Judgement comes.  The Celestial Kingdom doesn't come into play yet.

Not the sons of perdition.  And it's my understanding that the telestial will not be resurrected at the start of the millennium either.  I suppose that's up for interpretation, but it certainly doesn't sound like they will to me.

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-44-the-second-coming-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-46-the-final-judgment?lang=eng

...which link to the scriptures of interest.

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2 minutes ago, zil said:

Not the sons of perdition.  And it's my understanding that the telestial will not be resurrected at the start of the millennium either.  I suppose that's up for interpretation, but it certainly doesn't sound like they will to me.

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-44-the-second-coming-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-46-the-final-judgment?lang=eng

...which link to the scriptures of interest.

Ok only technically 99.99999999% of folks, cause it excludes Judas, Satan himself, and others in that beyond wicked camp.   Happy now Miss Technicality :P ?

(PS, I'm teasing)

Edited by Jane_Doe
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1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

Ok only technically 99.99999999% of folks, cause it excludes Judas, Satan himself, and others in that beyond wicked camp.   Happy now Miss Technicality :P ? 

(PS, I'm teasing)

Pretty sure the telestial folks will be a pretty large percentage.  (IMO, this represents one of the problems with the apparent assumption / expectation of the OP - you simply cannot accurately boil down the details of our beliefs into a single paragraph per topic.  There's too much not yet revealed and even what has been revealed required whole chapters of scripture to explain it.  And we're not in the habit of writing modern Cliffs Notes of our doctrine - if anything, we're in the habit of rephrasing it in a zillion ways in hopes that each rephrasing will help a member have that ah-ha moment which leads to conversion on that principle.  At least, that's my perception.  The Gospel is easy to teach to someone who in interested in gaining a testimony (or not gaining one), but rather difficult to teach to someone who wants a theological synopsis.)

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@Jane_Doe  thank you. 

Yes, @Just_A_Guy is provides a good explanation and I am able to figure out.  But many others here provide their opinion as being somehow doctine and as an outsider one cannot know what is authoritative and what is opinion.  This is the same is true for those who read the Qur'an.  One has to deal with opinion of every Muslim but at least I can go the the tafsir and read the commentaries and there is the ahadith which provides the core customs and beliefs to be followed.  But with Mormonism, it is opinion first and foremost. 

What I am faced with is beliefs which can be synthesized at the micro scale but are appear not to make sense on the macro scale.  I am attempting to see how this all can be fitted together into a coherent who.  There are a bunch of holes and it appears that opinions are used to plug these holes and the opinions when plugged in one area open a hole in another area.  I want to see is how the system works with as little opinion as possible - I do not consider deductive reasoning as opinion because if it give coherence to the whole then so much the better.

I attempted to read the FAIR Mormon site and much of their essays are just fluff, speculation and conjecture.  Hence, I cannot tell what opinion is and what is true at the site. 

You states there will be three kingdoms of glory.  That is false according to LDS.org  According to LDS org there are at present three kingdoms of glory.  So the celestial kingdom exists at present.  This is confirmed by Joseph Smith when he indicated that Alvin was already in the celestial kingdom. 

What do you mean my post-epistemological event?  What does that mean?

Epistemology to me deals with knowledge, and how one comes to know reality, truth etc and the those theories which deal with "knowing" knowledge.  Did you mean to say posteriori?

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

@Jane_Doe  thank you. 

Yes, @Just_A_Guy is provides a good explanation and I am able to figure out.  But many others here provide their opinion as being somehow doctine and as an outsider one cannot know what is authoritative and what is opinion.  This is the same is true for those who read the Qur'an.  One has to deal with opinion of every Muslim but at least I can go the the tafsir and read the commentaries and there is the ahadith which provides the core customs and beliefs to be followed.  But with Mormonism, it is opinion first and foremost. 

What I am faced with is beliefs which can be synthesized at the micro scale but are appear not to make sense on the macro scale.  I am attempting to see how this all can be fitted together into a coherent who.  There are a bunch of holes and it appears that opinions are used to plug these holes and the opinions when plugged in one area open a hole in another area.  I want to see is how the system works with as little opinion as possible - I do not consider deductive reasoning as opinion because if it give coherence to the whole then so much the better.

I attempted to read the FAIR Mormon site and much of their essays are just fluff, speculation and conjecture.  Hence, I cannot tell what opinion is and what is true at the site. 

You states there will be three kingdoms of glory.  That is false according to LDS.org  According to LDS org there are at present three kingdoms of glory.  So the celestial kingdom exists at present.  This is confirmed by Joseph Smith when he indicated that Alvin was already in the celestial kingdom. 

What do you mean my post-epistemological event?  What does that mean?

Epistemology to me deals with knowledge, and how one comes to know reality, truth etc and the those theories which deal with "knowing" knowledge.  Did you mean to say posteriori?

 

 

 

Ian, just a quibble:  there are some interesting statements from Joseph Smith suggesting that the Celestial Kingdom already exists; but the example you cite involving his brother Alvin isn’t one of them.  In the same vision where Joseph saw his brother in the Celestial Kingdom, he also saw his parents there—and they were still alive at the time of the vision.  That particular vision of Smith’s was a vision of what could be, not a vision of what was.

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LDS Doctrine is canonized in the standard works.  Everything else is commentary.  Some of it more authoritative than others.  And some statements are misinterpreted. For example, Joseph Smith have a vision of his brother in the Celestial Kingdom, but that could/must be a future vision, and Alvin, like everyone else is waiting for the Earth to receive its paradisaical Glory (Article of Faith, D&C 88). The Earth is (or will become) the Celestial Kingdom.  The meek will literally inherit the Earth.

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@Just_A_Guy  All the LDS documentation indicates there is a celestial kingdom at present, not there will be in the future but that it exists now. 

Edit note, thanks I re-read it and you are correct.  That would appear to be a precognitional event

Edited by Ian Hall
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36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth. (D&C 93:36)

And if we read here-

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever. ( Abraham 3:26)

If we couple these scriptures together we can surmise that we will continue to gain light and truth forever and ever. This means even after we progress to become Gods we will gain in glory, or, said another way- gain in intelligence and truth. What does this say about God? That it's impossible to possess all intelligence.

Edited by Rob Osborn
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18 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth. (D&C 93:36)

And if we read here-

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever. ( Abraham 3:26)

If we couple these scriptures together we can surmise that we will continue to gain light and truth forever and ever. This means even after we progress to become Gods we will gain in glory, or, said another way- gain in intelligence and truth. What does this say about God? That it's impossible to possess all intelligence.

Right.  There is a gaining of knowledge continually for both men and for gods.  It is same to say that this applies to those in the celestial kingdom only?  I know that some opinions state there is no migration from a lower kingdom to a higher kingdom. 

Now, those in the spirit prison will be there for 1,000 years before they go to their judgement correct?

Also what does the atonement death and resurrection actually accomplish?

In Judaism Paradise is sheol a compartment where the tzaddikim await the coming of the messiach, who will make himself known to them and will open the gates of heaven.  Sheol is a compartment in hell, but it is paradise,  This is the traditional Jewish understanding. 

 

Edited by Ian Hall
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9 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

@Just_A_Guy  All the LDS documentation indicates there is a celestial kingdom at present, not there will be in the future but that it existInsert other media s now.

Yes and no. The Celestial kingdom is synonymous with the Kingdom of God, or in other words, the dwelling place of God., both body and spirit The kingdom of God existed prior to mortality--i.e. was and is the domain of the Father's pre-mortal spirit children, also called "heaven.". The kingdom of God  has and does now exist on earth in the form of HIs "church" and under the auspices of His duly called and ordained priesthood. He dwells on earth by way of His spirit and priesthood authority, as most clearly manifest by the presence of His temples (I trust you understand this as a Jew), though he dwells bodily in heaven.  When Christ inaugurated the first resurrection (3 days after his dieath, those thus resurrected have dwelt in the celestial kingdom with their Father in heaven  In conjunction with the second coming, God will come to dwell on the earth by way of HIs Son, thus establishing a celestial kingdom that has yet to come. And, finally, at the close of the millennium,  The earth will be celestialized and become the dwelling place of the Father and His celestial resurrected children children.

Each of these stages of progression may rightly be considered the celestial kingdom, but not ultimately the Celestial Kingdom, not unlike unborn babies, new born, toddlers, children, and teens may rightly be considered as "man," though not ultimately "Man" until they reach adulthood.  The celestial Kingdom has existed in the past and currently exists in the presence, though ultimately the Celestial Kingdom won't exist until after the millennium. 

I can provide ample authoritative documentation (for example, see HERE), but I wanted to spell things out simply to begin with so to better assure productive conversation. Most of the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (with the possible exveption of Rpb Osborn), wioll like be in unanomous agreement, which should carry some authority of its own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

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