My girlfriend is conflicted about serving a mission and marrying me

[LatterDSaint]

4 minutes ago, Overwatch said:

I am doing nothing of the sort

Overwatch. I know the truth hurts but denying it makes me trust you even less... Have you or have you not been adamant that me and my hypothetical wife will be condemned if neither of us served?

[Overwatch]

2 minutes ago, LatterDSaint said:

Overwatch. I know the truth hurts but denying it makes me trust you even less... Have you or have you not been adamant that me and my hypothetical wife will be condemned if neither of us served?

There seems to be a disconnect with your reading and what I am telling you. You trusting me makes no difference to the truth that I told you. Serving a mission is an honor and a privilege. Your friend that is going on a mission is not obligated to serve but it will be a blessing in her life. ALL worthy young men are called to the work. There is a lot of work to be done. Someone else will pick up your slack and find the souls who are waiting for you if you willingly choose to not go.

[JohnsonJones]

Just now, LatterDSaint said:

Drop out of college to serve a mission and fail to obtain graduating from BYU? Hmmmmm I guess I'll give this some thought.....

 

This is EXACTLY what we were discussing right before we mutually split. Every detail you have written here is the foundation on which led us to separate a few days ago.....

Drop out of college to serve a mission...YES...absolutely.

You stated that 90% of the young adult men at BYU were RMs.  That means that at some point, they either did NOT go to college, or DROPPED out and did not graduate from BYU before GOING on a mission.  If they can do it, so can you.

I have three Son-in-Laws, and one of them was also a citizen of another nation outside the US.  He went on a mission and afterwards applied with the appropriate papers and measures and was allowed back to the US and to BYU.  He met my daughter and they got married.  He graduated from BYU with a Bachelors in Business. 

Then they moved to Europe.  NOW, he is BACK in the US after having applied again and completed the paperwork and is working on his MASTERS.

Going on a mission does NOT MEAN you never get to go back to college or the university.  IT means FOCUSING on the LORD for a few years of your life and sharing the gift of the gospel.

Now, not all young men can serve a mission for various reasons (medical, other otherwise), and if you fall into that category it may be understandable.  From what you've posted though, the ONLY REASON is a desire to continue your education.  I KNOW that for those outside the US, this is not a good reason.  If you are WILLING to push forward on it, any education you wish to receive can STILL be received.  It is NOT LIKE BYU or universities are going to suddenly run away and disappear in the next two years.

The excuse that you must finish your education first holds NO WATER (aka...doesn't hold up, isn't really a good excuse) in my book.  I KNOW better already.  Coming BACK may not be easy to do, but if that is what you truly want to do after you go on a mission, it is possible.  It may be harder, but if that is what you so desire AFTER serving the Lord...than if you want to do that, it will still be there.

However, your opportunity to go on a mission is limited in time, and the choice to go is one that should be made first and foremost. 

Now, if you choose not to go, there is nothing terrible about that.  There are no repercussions, and nothing bad will happen to you.  You will lose an opportunity to serve though.

IF it is a monetary thing (and with some foreign students that is what the kicker is, they have their schooling paid for by their government), you may feel it is a tough decision.  HOWEVER, as BYU is the same cost to members no matter where they are from (I believe it is still that way), the only thing going on a mission would do is to make it so one loses that government money.  That places them in the SAME situation as 99% of other BYU students who have to pay the tuition costs.  So, this is STILL not a valid excuse in my book.

That said, as I pointed out there are really no repercussion of you not going.  There really should be no stigma and no impacts except that you lose the opportunity to serve a mission. 

What I WAs pointing with the first post though, was that her using Spencer W. Kimballs' quote as a reason for her to go on a mission is ridiculous.  It doesn't say that.

On the otherhand, it DOES apply to you if one is going to apply it to anyone.  That's the great irony I suppose of the post you made.

[LatterDSaint]

3 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

You stated that 90% of the young adult men at BYU were RMs.  That means that at some point, they either did NOT go to college, or DROPPED out and did not graduate from BYU before GOING on a mission.  If they can do it, so can you.

So while I understand your ignorance as you are new to this topic I posted, it is not so simple. I am not American.

Edited September 13, 2018 by LatterDSaint

[JohnsonJones]

3 minutes ago, LatterDSaint said:

So while I understand your ignorance as you are new to this topic I posted, it is not so simple. I am not American.

And as I posted above this in the same post (which you probably should read in it's entirety), neither are some of us, and neither is my son-in-law who is a BYU graduate.  Who went to BYU, then went on a mission, reapplied, and graduated from BYU with a degree.  Then, later, went BACK to the US again and is working on a masters.

The entire excuse that you are not an American is not a good excuse.

PS: There is no stigma if you choose not to serve, it's ultimately your choice.  However, don't give me excuses that are not valid in your reasons NOT to go on a mission.  If you choose not to go because you don't want to than just admit it.  Or, if you don't want to have the challenge of reapplication to the US and to schooling, admit that.  However, trying to say because you are not a US citizen prevents you from going on a mission, that's a bad excuse.  You can't blame it on that.

If you don't want to go, fine.  That's life and people will be okay with that.  You lose out on nothing by choosing not to go, but OWN UP TO YOUR OWN EXCUSE.  Don't blame it on being a non-US citizen because there are plenty of NON-US members and plenty of NON-US citizens that went on missions and are in the US now after going on missions doing what they choose to do.

Edited September 13, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[LatterDSaint]

4 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

He went on a mission and afterwards applied with the appropriate papers and measures and was allowed back to the US and to BYU

So he was studying at BYU before he served? If I chose to serve before coming to college then I agree that the limitations on me serving would not be as severe. 

 

7 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Going on a mission does NOT MEAN you never get to go back to college or the university

For international students, this is true and also not true.

 

8 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I KNOW that for those outside the US, this is not a good reason.

and so you disagree with my Bishop....

 

9 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Now, if you choose not to go, there is nothing terrible about that.  There are no repercussions, and nothing bad will happen to you.  You will lose an opportunity to serve though.

I would appreciate Overwatch's response to this....

 

10 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

the only thing going on a mission would do is to make it so one loses that government money

It is not a case of government money...

 

11 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

On the otherhand, it DOES apply to you if one is going to apply it to anyone.

I probably didnt communicate well enough that this was the whole reason for are discussion a couple of days ago that led us to split. 

[LatterDSaint]

11 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

because there are plenty of NON-US members and plenty of NON-US citizens that went on missions and are in the US now after going on missions doing what they choose to do.

I would like to see where you got this information from. I can understand that there may have been many international students that served before applying to BYU but did not complete a year or two of college before serving.

If you have statistics and sources other than your own anecdote involving your son in law, then I will be more inclined to believe you. 

Edited September 13, 2018 by LatterDSaint

[NeuroTypical]

Just a reminder of some of the forum rules you all agreed to when you signed up here...

Quote

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3. Personal attacks, name calling, flaming, and judgments against other members will not be tolerated.

 

[JohnsonJones]

1 minute ago, LatterDSaint said:

1. So he was studying at BYU before he served? If I chose to serve before coming to college then I agree that the limitations on me serving would not be as severe. 

 

2. For international students, this is true and also not true.

 

3. and so you disagree with my Bishop....

 

4. I would appreciate Overwatch's response to this....

 

5. It is not a case of government money...

 

6. I probably didnt communicate well enough that this was the whole reason for are discussion a couple of days ago that led us to split. 

1. Yes

2. I know of NO nation that says if you take off for two years that you can never go back to college.  If you are part of such a nation, tell me which one.  I can then look at their laws and see if that is actually true.  I HIGHLY doubt it is.  I have see no nation with that policy yet.  Even Israel and other nations that have compulsory service don't have this rule.

3.  I don't know your Bishop or what you told that Bishop.  I only know what you've told us in this thread, and thus far your excuse doesn't seem valid.  If you don't want to go, just admit it, don't blame your nation or school for it.

4.  That's fine.  However, there is nothing against you not wanting to go.  If you don't...that's fine.  I DO have a problem with the excuse you gave in the thread.  If you don't want to go, just say it.

5.  I only posited about the case of government money because that's one reason some try to say about it.  That's something that happens sometimes and can weigh heavily on one's mind.  Some nations have free education.  If their citizens choose to go to a school in another nation, their mother nation actually pays for that education.  However, if they drop out, that nation will no longer cover there rest of the education and sometimes even asks them to pay back what they already spent.  In addition, those with compulsory service at times than have them serve their time in the military in addition to that.  It can be a heavy choice.  Having seen it though, it STILL is not a barrier to those who want to serve the Lord and a mission.  That is why I brought it up.

6.  I thought the discussion was that she was using it as an excuse for HER to go on a mission, not to try to force you to go on a mission.  What am I missing here?

[LatterDSaint]

3 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Just a reminder of some of the forum rules you all agreed to when you signed up here...

 

I understand and will keep this in mind. I absolutely appreciate the input from everyone that has participated in this post I made. I love communicating with other members of the church in this way. Much better than the trash that is reddit. 

[JohnsonJones]

5 minutes ago, LatterDSaint said:

I would like to see where you got this information from. I can understand that there may have been many international students that served before applying to BYU but did not complete a year or two of college before serving.

If you have statistics and sources other than your own anecdote involving your son in law, then I will be more inclined to believe you. 

On the otherhand, it would be easier to explain, in detail, why you feel that you cannot leave and come back.

I work at a university, we have a LOT of foreign students that also have left to do whatever they chose to do and have come back to the US.  It takes time and paperwork but it is not something that is impossible for those who want to do it.

References would be US law.  There's a lot of them.

What nation are your from?

[LatterDSaint]

8 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I know of NO nation that says if you take off for two years that you can never go back to college

Ill be absolutely honest with you. This nation under President Trump is set on this especially if you are from a Muslim majority country. Now I am not from such a country, but I would reconsider responses like the one you made here. 

 

8 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I only know what you've told us in this thread, and thus far your excuse doesn't seem valid

My Bishop also elaborated on the fact that immigration status can be a factor that prevents someone in my situation serving the Lord sooner rather than later.

 

8 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I thought the discussion was that she was using it as an excuse for HER to go on a mission, not to try to force you to go on a mission.  What am I missing here?

Not at all and I apologize for the confusion. Her mother sent her that speech and she showed it to me because the mother wanted both of us to see it in respect to myself. That is what led to our break up. That is what led to me finding this site and making a post about this. I am not looking for answers or validation or words of encouragement. Just an online discussion. After all this is one of my hobbies

Edited September 13, 2018 by LatterDSaint

[anatess2]

39 minutes ago, LatterDSaint said:

I think it may have been answered before but I will repeat it again. I have since assumed when I started college in America that the Church cannot make adjustments to my visa to accommodate serving a full time mission for two years. From the outcome of my talk with my Bishop, it appears that he does not believe such circumstances can be met either...

Graduation is my focus and up until now, honoring the woman who I truly felt could be  my spouse was also my focus. It appears that the second focus has diminished some, and I believe truly that this was in the Lord's will. There are things that have convinced me that if we were to remain together over the next few months, our relationship and livelihood would crumble in its entirety. Focusing on this has given solace over the past two days.

Okay, this is how I understand it - you are attending BYU on a student visa.  You're not sure if the student visa will hold over the 2 years you serve a mission.  I am certain it will not.  You have to be an active student for your visa to remain valid.  Therefore, you will have to choose between BYU now, mission later or mission now and maybe-not-BYU later (re-application for a visa is much harder).  Your choice to attend BYU now and focus on graduation is an honorable one.  But full-time mission service is not closed to you.  Depending on how old you are when you graduate, you can still serve a full-time mission.

So, your *girlfriend serving a mission is looking like it's a blessing.  It's putting the Lord into more stark focus in her life as well as yours.  Like I said on my first post, this is a great time to ponder on the meaning of Love - that desire to bring someone closer to Christ - as you yourself work on getting yourself closer to Christ.

 

 

[JohnsonJones]

54 minutes ago, LatterDSaint said:

1.  Ill be absolutely honest with you. This nation under President Trump is set on this especially if you are from a Muslim majority country. Now I am not from such a country, but I would reconsider responses like the one you made here. 

 

2.  My Bishop also elaborated on the fact that immigration status can be a factor that prevents someone in my situation serving the Lord sooner rather than later.

 

3.  Not at all and I apologize for the confusion. Her mother sent her that speech and she showed it to me because the mother wanted both of us to see it in respect to myself. That is what led to our break up. That is what led to me finding this site and making a post about anything at all.

1.  As one who has traveled extensively to "Muslim" nations, I am well versed in what it takes to go to one and back to the US.  There are nations which are under Islamic Law, and travel to and from some of them is more difficult, but Trump is only in office for a short while (6 more years at maximum, less depending on elections, by the time one serves a mission and comes back it may be a moot point).  If anything it makes me wonder how much you know about international travel and agreements.  Student visas are can actually make this easier than what many others have to go through in regards to this type of travel.

I think the church may have actually had an agreement with some nations and the US where some foreign missionaries actually had student visas (hence if they were going to BYU they would retain the visa if they so desired). 

Not all Mormons are in the US and not all Mormons stay in the US.  There are many that travel to foreign nations or are from foreign nations themselves.  They do not use this excuse to avoid going on missions or other church services typically.  Now, there may be OTHER excuses, but simply claiming being a foreign national does not really seem like a valid excuse.  IT CAN MAKE IT HARDER to accomplish certain goals, but if one perseveres it can be done (for example, that son-in-law I told you about...we are talking 18 years to get where he is at now working on his masters back in the US...so doable even if not easy).

To me it seems you are looking at the short term, rather than the long term.

2.  It can be a factor, and it could depend.  If you are an actual foreign student who is here legally, it is normally not as hard as you seem to make it sound.  There ARE obstacles, and there can be time, but if one REALLY wants to do that, they can.  For those from Europe, there are equally good, if not better universities in Europe if one cannot return to the US.

ON THE OTHERHAND, if one is an illegal immigrant, that MIGHT pose some obstacles.  I am NOT as familiar with those regulations or requirements, and so I will admit weakness in knowing all that one could do with that.  However, I know the church is pretty understanding of these (even in opposition to US law in some cases) and as such, I suppose if you were in that situation you could apply to ONLY be in the US and remain CONUS while serving a mission? 

Thus, you would not have to worry about re-entry, and would remain where you were. 

You could try to graduate as you imply and go on a mission afterwards, but that does not mean not going on a mission, it only means that you would state that you have delayed going on a mission.  AT which point, tell the girlfriend to go and you'll go on one as well eventually and then after that you can consider marriage or whatever you wish to do in that relationship (6 months compared to 3-4 years is probably too short to be able to tell whether you would want the same things after a mission or not).

My difficulty in understanding is NOT that you have reasons not to go on a mission, but your specific reasoning.  You could say you are going on a mission after you graduate, or list some other reason for not going on a mission.  However, saying because you are from a foreign nation and not a US citizen doesn't seem to be a good excuse.

NOW IF YOU ARE an illegal immigrant in the US (and the same could apply to those in refuge status in some of Europe and similar situations) I agree, it gets a LOT more sticky.  There are also other options that you could investigate.  You could see if you could do a local mission (either full time or part time mission.  A part time means you stay in your area doing what you do, but you also would be assigned missionary duties and things to do as a missionary.  Since you are in Provo they already have this program in place and several areas which you could serve a mission with.  A full time missionary would stay where in the same area, but proselytize as missionaries do.  There are also several different types of missions you could perform part or full time.  There are service missions, temple missions, proselytizing missions, etc).

If this is your situation though, I can understand dancing around the question, but I still think if you desire to go on a mission, than go on a mission.  Say you desire it and don't make excuses.  If you don't want to go on a mission, or don't have as strong a desire to go on a  mission, say that as well and don't make excuses for it.

3.  So, if I understand, this was not actually about her, but about YOU going on a mission.  Her mother feels strongly that YOU should go on a mission (and thus probably that her daughter should marry a return missionary, or barring that should go on a mission herself) and thus the quote by Spencer W. Kimball.  Hence, it IS intended to give you advice.

That is up to you to choose.  If you want to go, I think it is doable and possible.  If you want to go, make up your mind that you WILL go....either now, or immediately after graduation.  Make plans for how to do so.  Don't make up excuses, instead make up your mind that you will go.

If you choose NOT to go, than give excuses for not going.  Simply stand up for your decision and say that you decided between you and the Lord that it is NOT the right thing for you.  Don't stand behind things and make them excuses when others have had the same challenges and still gone on a mission.  If, after prayer and thoughtful deliberation you feel that it is not the right thing for you, and that is your choice...than say it.  Don't say that you can't go because of any reason others have dealt with and still gone on a mission.  Instead, stand by your own choice and say...you choose not to go.

It probably could also help if you say, you've prayed about it and between you and the Lord the choice was that it was wiser for you to stay in school and not go on a mission.  There may be various factors to it (such as your status in the US and the difficulties that would pertain to you returning to school), but that is only part of it.  The real reason would be that you prayed about it and that right now, you feel that the Lord has other things for you to do and going on a mission is not one of them.

You can express that to others and they can choose to either go with it or not.  However, in the case of this young woman, it sounds as if she made up her mind that she would want to be with you only if you went on a mission (if I understand what you are saying now) as per the advice and strong pressure put on her by her mother.  That is one consequence of your choice, if that ends up being what it is.   There are MANY young LDS woman that have a desire that one of the qualifications of who they marry is that this individual be a return missionary.  She probably will not be the last one that you meet that has this type of expectation or hope.  Their reaction to your choice to go on or not go on a mission is something that is a consequence of your choices.

If you are doing what you feel the Lord wants you to do (as I said above after prayer between you and the Lord) then it is what it is.  Six months isn't really a lot of time, and if you are doing what you feel is right, then the Lord will have life provide what you need or should have for your eternal progression.  She can go on with her life and you can go on with yours.

Edited September 13, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[SilentOne]

18 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Not all Mormons are Mormon

🤨

You might want to edit a little more.

[LatterDSaint]

41 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Depending on how old you are when you graduate, you can still serve a full-time mission.

absolutely 

45 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

So, your *girlfriend serving a mission is looking like it's a blessing.

unconfirmed but if it were to happen it would definitely be a blessing for her. Especially if she is able to complete her mission. 

 

46 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

You're not sure if the student visa will hold over the 2 years you serve a mission.  I am certain it will not. 

Like you I am not an optimist regarding this. JohnsonJones on the other hand....

 

47 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

as you yourself work on getting yourself closer to Christ.

Just curious, can this not be accomplished by looking for an eternal partner via Temple marriage?

[JohnsonJones]

Forum acting up.

Edited September 13, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[JohnsonJones]

2 minutes ago, SilentOne said:

🤨

You might want to edit a little more.

Thank you so much....I appreciate you pointing it out.

[estradling75]

In the scriptures we are told that our purpose here on earth is to see if we will do "All things" the Lord commands.  The Lord's servants have made it clear that as a general rule all young men in the church should prepare for and plan to serve a full time mission.  (aka you are commanded to serve) (Yes there are exceptions such exceptions are granted by working with your local leaders)

Depending on the command (in this case serve a mission) people might find it easy or hard to do.  The 'hardness' of a command does not make it less of a command it just makes it a greater test.  So the question isn't whither you should go..  The question is do you have enough Faith to Trust in the Lord and do "All Things" he commands?    The whole full time mission framework is just your current framework for this test.  Pass or Fail the test will keep coming.. until you are proven.

And of course sometimes (even often) we fail to do what the Lord commands... this is what repentance is for.

 

[LatterDSaint]

23 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

but if one REALLY wants to do that, they can.

I haven't reached this level you are talking about. Not even close to that level  considering what my parents have done to sustain my presence in college here....

 

25 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

For those from Europe, there are equally good, if not better universities in Europe if one cannot return to the US.

Again, your optimism far surpasses mine

 

26 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

However, saying because you are from a foreign nation and not a US citizen doesn't seem to be a good excuse.

it is part of it. There are plenty of other small factors which add to this...

 

28 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

If, after prayer and thoughtful deliberation you feel that it is not the right thing for you, and that is your choice...than say it

It is an ongoing process. Three days is not enough and only recently has it become a priority prayer point for me.

 

30 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

it sounds as if she made up her mind that she would want to be with you only if you went on a mission (if I understand what you are saying now) as per the advice and strong pressure put on her by her mother.

you are partly there. Clearly my non mission experience is now a significant factor in our relationship but she has also been on the fence about serving a mission. These conflating issues among our desire to raise a family together once we are finished with college is what has caused us so much inner conflict. The strong pressure by her mother is understandable. I am not ignorant to the desire for your children to serve a full time mission. And her mother has never met me. If I had never met my daughter's boyfriend and he was a convert and has not served but is of age, I'd be skeptical too concerning marriage talks.

[LatterDSaint]

8 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

The 'hardness' of a command does not make it less of a command it just makes it a greater test. 

agreed. My excuse isnt that it is TOO HARD to serve a mission with my current situation. More that it hasnt been a point of prayer that I have focused on and by default, I have not received any answer to whether I should serve. I will also admit that I never received an answer to whether I should marry my girlfriend. I know I will need additional prayer and scripture reading...

[Overwatch]

After reading the responses I feel that your friend is doing the best thing for her and her family. She will be serving God and her parents tradition of family serving in the mission field. This will give you time to finish up school and do whatever else you need to do. Your Bishop gave you counsel now follow it. 

[Guest MormonGator]

@LatterDSaint, I hope you find peace brother. 

[estradling75]

2 minutes ago, LatterDSaint said:

agreed. My excuse isnt that it is TOO HARD to serve a mission with my current situation. More that it hasnt been a point of prayer that I have focused on and by default, I have not received any answer to whether I should serve. I will also admit that I never received an answer to whether I should marry my girlfriend. I know I will need additional prayer and scripture reading...

On this I disagree...  Countless times you have been told that you should serve (by the prophets and whatnot)...  That is your answer, that should be your default.  You should not need more of an answer then the Lord has already given for you to go.   If you have a question it should be "Am I an exception to the general command?"

[LatterDSaint]

3 minutes ago, Overwatch said:

After reading the responses I feel that your friend is doing the best thing for her and her family

Personally I am more concerned with whether she is dong the best thing for her relationship with Christ. Whether she serves a mission or chooses not to, my influence is much more limited. Her mother's influence as always (understandably) will be there. Her father's too and their parents unfortunately disagree... (that is all I will say about that)