Starbucks to close 8K stores May 29th for training

[Fether]

Also...

https://mormonhub.com/blog/life/life-hacks/food/starbucks-for-mormons/

This is done by MormonHub...so obviously this is authoritative.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Here in rich, fat America, we have lots and lots of choices for food.  The majority of the population of Earth isn't so picky - they're like "hooray, food!"  But we have food bursting at every seam, everywhere.

That's another reason I have nothing but disdain for people from America/Canada/UK who have the :: ahem :: backbone to try and lecture hungry people about what food they should be eating. Unless you personally are starving, you need to keep your mouth shut. 

[anatess2]

@Carborendum, you forget @JohnsonJones thinks Sanderson is filth.  So you need to adjust for his level of sensitivity to such matters. 

[JohnsonJones]

5 hours ago, anatess2 said:

@Carborendum, you forget @JohnsonJones thinks Sanderson is filth.  So you need to adjust for his level of sensitivity to such matters. 

[JohnsonJones]

Seriously, though.  This is NOT to the Mormons that freely admit they drink coffee.  I actually appreciate the openness and honesty on that, and if they like Starbucks, well, I appreciate the honesty.

What I write in this thread are more for those who say they are strict Mormons in regards to everything Mormony...

How many of you frequent Bars?  How many of you have a high opinion of Bars.  How many of you think someone supporting a Bar is on equal ground to someone supporting a Grocery Store in regards to the Word of Wisdom? 

From the sounds of it, most of you...and these are MORMON FORUMS???  Seriously??

It really is shocking to a degree...and very saddening to a point as well.   Well...for some.  There are MANY Mormons that drink coffee, and yes, if you are going to Starbucks...you might not be drinking coffee...but THAT's the appearance you give. 

That's NOT the appearance you give if you go to a grocery store, or to a gas station.  You don't give the appearance of drinking alcohol or smoking if you go to one of those, but if you go to a BAR you certainly do.  To be honest, if you are not a Mormon, a BAR is NOT someplace that is evil either.  In fact, it has been a gathering place for communities in many areas for centuries.  However...if one sees a Mormon coming out of a Bar...what do you think?  What is their point in going to a BAR.

What is your point in going to a coffee café? 

Now, you aren't going to be punished by the LDS church, or anything else for going to a coffee café (and in theory, you won't for going to a BAR or even a strip joint by this logic), but there is the appearance of it.

Mormons follow the Word of Wisdom.  That includes NOT drinking coffee, tea, or alcohol.  This is the bare minimum.  I would think it would also mean you do not give the appearance that you drink so either. 

Now the excuse will come (and I've heard all of them, and these excuses in this thread sound EXACTLY like the excuses I've heard from the guys that went to the strip joints for why it wasn't breaking any rules) primarily that you do not drink coffee and ALL YOUR FRIENDS know you don't drink it when you go...so what's the problem?

If you go to a strip club (and we use it because it IS the extreme on the opposite end...and also because there are those who actually USE THE SAME EXACT EXCUSE as those in this thread in regards to grocery stores selling alcohol and magazines, and the whole gambit you've heard in this thread in that regards) and someone sees you coming out of it, what are they going to assume?  If you saw someone coming out of one, would you think...oh...they were just going to eat the food there, no other reason...it's completely innocent.

If someone sees you coming out of Starbucks, do you really think they are going to think...oh...they only went for the muffins and obviously because they are coming out of a Starbucks they do not drink coffee...it's completely innocent.

Regardless of whether you drank coffee (or worse at the strip joint) it is the appearance of what you do.  Sure, your friends may know you don't drink coffee (but some non-members MAY be laughing behind your back at your excuse for even going to Starbucks at times), but how about the rest of the world?

Now, the ONLY reason I mention this is for those who I expect are VERY hardcore Mormons.  I know there are many who are NOT hardcore Mormons who frequent these forums...and I know that there are MANY Mormons that drink coffee and love Starbucks.  I have nothing against them, or even them saying they love Starbucks coffee.  If they freely admit they love the coffee and Starbucks is awesome...more power to them.  AT least they admit they are not following the word of wisdom and that they love Starbucks coffee.  I'd rather the honesty on it in that fashion.

However, for those who claim to be strict Mormons but then say they love going to Starbucks...it just makes me shake my head and wonder...what is going on with this?

In reference to another thread...Maybe this is one of those Utah Mormon things...eh?

I'll admit it's probably more cultural on my part than doctrinal.

Edited April 19, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[JohnsonJones]

More on topic, the bigger issue isn't about the Starbucks ethics, and if there was something posted, perhaps it should have been about the individuals arrested rather than Starbucks response.  From what I understand, it wasn't that they were just arrested, but that there were others who were white that were in the same establishment for similar reasons that were not.  Hence the disparity between what happened to the whites that were there for hours surfing the internet vs. the Minority individuals that got arrested while waiting for a meeting.

Accordingly, they did not know why they were being arrested and from the police they were not exactly peaceful in the arrests.  I could understand a little bit of belligerence if they did not understand why or what reason there was legally to arrest them, especially if there were others who were doing similar things but were not also being arrested. 

This happens in many parts of the US every day.  I'm not sure why this merits more attention than other events I'm not sure, but it probably shows that racism is still a problem in the US.  I see this even within the LDS church, where I think it may be more pertinent issue to us today.  How many of us have hidden or subliminal racism or discrimination?  I know in my area it is a very REAL problem. 

A quick search for racism in Utah show the following two articles from the past 4 months...

Racism in the workplace, schools, and elsewhere in Utah 1/30/2018

Racism can be a politically charged thing though, and as the following article shows, at times politics is heavily intertwined with racism issues which makes this a VERY TOUCHY subject at times.

Rally against Trump's words in regards to other nations demanding Utah Politicians speak out against Trump

It's a sensitive subject that probably has people fall on both sides of the political spectrum.

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

How many of you frequent Bars?  How many of you have a high opinion of Bars.  How many of you think someone supporting a Bar is on equal ground to someone supporting a Grocery Store in regards to the Word of Wisdom? 

Let me tell you a story, and it may help you understand me better.

I was leaving Houston (forever as far as I knew).  My then roommate wanted to throw me a going away party by treating me to dinner with some friends.  I thought that was cool.  He told me the name of the restaurant and gave me the address and when to meet.

When I got there, I realized just from looking at the place that it was a bar, not a restaurant.  I stood out there wondering if I should go in.  Truthfully, I'd never been to a bar that was advertised/named as such. 

Since I was already late my roommate called me on my cell phone wondering where I was.  I yelled at him for inviting me to a bar.  He knew I was a Mormon and I wondered why on earth he'd think I'd enjoy this place.  He assured me it would be ok.  I didn't have to drink anything, and they serve full meals as well.  So, I thought, "OK".  

I went in and everyone was drinking alcoholic beverages.  But I was determined to get some dinner since I was hungry.  I ordered a meal.  There were no non-alcoholic beverages on the menu.  That's right. NONE.  Now, I'd heard of people ordering non-alcoholic drinks at bars such as "seltzer water" or ginger ale, etc.  even though they were not on the menu because they were often additives to other drinks.  But I had also heard that sometimes when you order such, they automatically add vodka or whiskey or whatever to the drink just because they figure that's what you wanted -- yes, I was that unaquainted with bars.  And I didn't know what to say to make sure it was non-alcoholic.  Not only that, but my stingy nature refused to pay alcoholic beverage prices for non-alcoholic drinks just because they didn't have a price on the menu for them -- which was something else I had been told.

So, my roommate paid for the drink and said something to the bartender to give me a non-alcoholic drink.  When it arrived, I took a sip and never wanted to touch it again.  I don't think there was alcohol in it.  But there was something wrong with the drink.

When the food arrived, this "complete meal" looked like a VERY SMALL sampler platter of appetizers.  And that little dish cost over $20.  Thank goodness my roommate paid for it.

So, when you want to make comparisons to bars, make sure that the comparison is reasonable.  Looking at my experience, it was NOT.

[lostinwater]

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

In reference to another thread...Maybe this is one of those Utah Mormon things...eh?

I'll admit it's probably more cultural on my part than doctrinal.

i hear what you are saying @JohnsonJones.  

i personally have no issues with drinking coffee (though i am a (mostly herbal) tea person myself)- but that aside, i really don't think frequenting Starbucks says anything about a mormon person's faith or belief in the word of wisdom.  i'd call that a stigma.  Maybe it used to be accurate enough to where there were not enough exceptions to have a good reason not to use it, but i really don't think that's the case any more.  

Granted, i live in Seattle, where there are approximately 8 times the number of Starbucks there are in Utah - and long lines at every single one.

And comparing consuming hot chocolate at a store that sells coffee to consuming a burger (surrounded by pornographic material provided by exploited/severely damaged girls and women) at a strip club.  i really don't get that one.  You don't really consider those at all on even somewhat equal footing, do you?  Maybe i am making a wrong assumption?

That said, i think it's great you are choosing to follow your beliefs - and this isn't meant to be any kind of an argument.  i have way too much respect for you to even want to do that.

[NeuroTypical]

JohnsonJones, your unrighteous judgements aren’t my problem.

[JohnsonJones]

3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

JohnsonJones, your unrighteous judgements aren’t my problem.

????

Okaaaay....

[JohnsonJones]

5 hours ago, lostinwater said:

i hear what you are saying @JohnsonJones.  

i personally have no issues with drinking coffee (though i am a (mostly herbal) tea person myself)- but that aside, i really don't think frequenting Starbucks says anything about a mormon person's faith or belief in the word of wisdom.  i'd call that a stigma.  Maybe it used to be accurate enough to where there were not enough exceptions to have a good reason not to use it, but i really don't think that's the case any more.  

Granted, i live in Seattle, where there are approximately 8 times the number of Starbucks there are in Utah - and long lines at every single one.

And comparing consuming hot chocolate at a store that sells coffee to consuming a burger (surrounded by pornographic material provided by exploited/severely damaged girls and women) at a strip club.  i really don't get that one.  You don't really consider those at all on even somewhat equal footing, do you?  Maybe i am making a wrong assumption?

That said, i think it's great you are choosing to follow your beliefs - and this isn't meant to be any kind of an argument.  i have way too much respect for you to even want to do that.

What I'm saying isn't to those who actually drink coffee, even if they are Mormon.  If they are Mormon I'd rather the forward and straight honesty about it.  No fakery, no hypocrisy, just straight up saying it.  If you like coffee, I think Starbucks is probably a great place.  Not only can you get your morning (or evening) coffee, they offer other things in addition that are terrific to have with your coffee or on the go. 

In regards to strip clubs, I use the example because the excuses in this thread really are the EXACT SAME excuses some have used for going to strip clubs.  There are apparently clubs out there called Gentlemen's clubs that have many different areas.  One of those areas apparently serve food (with girls in bikinis or other skimpy clothing ranging from swimsuits to how they dress in hooters, or sometimes even just normally clothed in nice dresses and such) without the actual strip portion of the area. 

When asked why they go to such a place?  They answer basically the same as this thread.  The food is great (and knowing how good some of the food was in Pubs and bars when I was younger, I can see how that might be in an occasional place or so), and that's why they go.  If they were to avoid everyplace that sold items against their religion, they wouldn't be able to frequent any place...etc...etc...etc.

Now the strip joints are an EXTREME example, especially in the US where nudity and sex is less acceptable than violence and other things, but what is interesting is that the actual Excuses are exactly the same for those who claim they are going for reasons that are OTHER than the store/joint's primary reason for even existing in the first place.

The Bar excuse may be more apt though.  In addition, I've heard all the excuses, and there are also many Mormons that actually DO go to Bars and use the same excuse that I've heard here for Starbucks. 

I'm not ignorant.  I work with university age kids.  I travel a lot (and Starbucks is big with travelers).  I KNOW what Starbucks sells and their core product.  There is NO evil within it, and if I were NOT a Mormon I'd probably frequent it a lot (I'm one that actually LOVES coffee and it's one of the big things I miss to a degree). 

For those who claim to be strict Mormons though, what REAL reason is there to go to Starbucks.  You aren't going to have any punishment in the church for going, but what is the reason one actually goes for? 

When asked by the Lord why you went to the Grocery Store...one can say they needed to get food.  When asked by the Lord why we went to the Gas station one can explain they needed to gas up their car.  When asked by the Lord why they supported and went to the Starbucks COFFEE COMPANY or any COFFEE CAFE what are you going to say.  You think the excuse had GREAT MUFFINS!!! is really going to answer the question, especially when he asks.  Knowing his thoughts on those that said they believed one thing, but acted in another I think he might buy or accept the reason that you actually liked to drink coffee and that's why you went better than the excuse you were going for the muffins.

In another thread we had the entire Cultural vs the Religious thing.  Is this a cultural artifact I practice...probably. 

If the Starbucks coffee company also owned Harmons Grocery Store, that would probably be a different issue (grocery stores primary product are not coffee), even if it was owned by the coffee company.  It's the fact that one is entering something that is defined in culture as selling something primarily known as a drink Mormons avoid, and the appearance that gives off.  In the same light, Beer is actually really great stuff.  However, I don't go to Bars, not even for the food.  I probably wouldn't not have a hard time if one went to Sea World, but going to a specific Bar with the excuse that it's because of the food, I might think there are wiser things to do.  In regards to the LDS church overall, there is NO problem or anything against one who simply goes to a Bar and eats food and doesn't drink any alcohol there.  That doesn't mean that's something I would encourage anyone to do either. 

Doctrinally, NOTHING is against anyone from going to Starbucks though. (or a Bar, afterall, even Joseph Frequented bars occasionally and  what might shock some Mormons even more is that he drank alcoholic drinks).

I am finding it crazy that there are so many supposed hardcore Mormons that would defend the Word of Wisdom and other LDS specifics (not found in other religions) to the core, say they don't drink coffee or any other thing, but then show great enthusiasm for going to a place that is known to be a coffee place.  I shouldn't be shocked, but it is still a little shocking.  If a Mormon drinks coffee and that's why they go to Starbucks, I actually have less difficulties buying that than one who says they go for the muffins. 

To me, the former goes because they love that core product of the Starbucks café.  The latter just seems like those trying to fit in and give an illusion of doing as the world, while they say something entirely different in how they believe and what they practice. 

Cultural, probably.  It's part of that Mormon Culture that I am a part of I suppose. 

 

 

 

PS: As a parallel example....from what I understand Jehovah's witnesses are not to celebrate things that are not of the Lord, hence no Christmas, Easter, or Birthdays.  I would not expect one to go to a store that specializes in Christmas decorations.  They may say that there are many pretty things there (and they may be right), but for a Jehovah's Witness to be participating in someplace that focuses on items that are against their religions practice, it would be odd to find them there.  This probably would go double for a store that focuses on Halloween items.  They may say they go simply to buy great costumes or some practical usage of a fake pair of glasses or other item, but it still seems odd that they would do this.  It doesn't fit with the narrative that they give in their church.  It shows that even if their religion teaches against it, it shows that they participate and support the idea, counter to their religion.  Just like you'd think a customer in a Halloween store around Halloween is there because they are looking for Halloween items, that would also apply to a Jehovah's Witness that just happened to be there. 

It would be really odd if they then went into how they didn't support or recognize Halloween, while being right there at the Halloween store.

[lostinwater]

6 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

In regards to strip clubs, I use the example because the excuses in this thread really are the EXACT SAME excuses some have used for going to strip clubs.  There are apparently clubs out there called Gentlemen's clubs that have many different areas.  One of those areas apparently serve food (with girls in bikinis or other skimpy clothing ranging from swimsuits to how they dress in hooters, or sometimes even just normally clothed in nice dresses and such) without the actual strip portion of the area. 

When asked why they go to such a place?  They answer basically the same as this thread.  The food is great (and knowing how good some of the food was in Pubs and bars when I was younger, I can see how that might be in an occasional place or so), and that's why they go.  If they were to avoid everyplace that sold items against their religion, they wouldn't be able to frequent any place...etc...etc...etc.

Thanks @JohnsonJones.  

Respect that.  i guess we differ though.  

It's interesting - i don't feel at all condemned by God and Jesus for being there.  i'm honestly certain that my consuming herbal tea at Starbucks is not going to be an issue at judgment day.  Though i know you feel just as certain it will be.  

i suppose there is a line between appearance of evil and extreme culture craziness - and everyone draws it in a different place based on their perceptions and experiences.  My line sits about 3 million equidistant miles between the two examples - and it sounds like yours does not.  And that's fine.

[anatess2]

@JohnsonJones, this is how I see what you're saying.  I mean, I understand completely where you're coming from and I don't disagree... our differences stem from our difference in how we see Starbucks.  So I'm going to explain our difference using a different item so hopefully you understand MY point of view.

Okay, so after Parkland happened, my kid got into an argument with several members of my extended family.  Their argument was - the AR15 is designed to kill people so my son having an AR15 is supporting killing people.  Well, that's silly, because the AR15 is not designed to kill people - it's designed to shoot a projectile on a piece of machinery that is easily customizable.   What you do with the machine is your own perception of what the machine is for.

This is the same as Starbucks.  Starbucks is not designed to sell coffee like you claim.  Starbucks is designed as a hip establishment designed for the 3rd social meal of traditional human society.  There are 4 main social meals in traditional human society - breakfast, lunch, tea, and dinner.  Now, they call it tea because England offered the traditional tea with their traditional sconces during tea time, so they call it tea.  In the Philippines they call it Merienda.  So, you got Waffle House that is known for breakfast, you got Sandwich Shops that take the lunch market and then you got places like Red Lobster and such that take the dinner market.  Then you got places like Starbucks for Merienda.  Now, in the western world, coffee and tea is the traditional offering for Merienda, and is very popular, so that's what they sell.  But, for those who don't consume coffee or tea for Merienda, they also offer other options.  The other thing they are known for is their free wifi - this targets the working market so they can add their Merienda time to their work day so they can leave the workplace, go have Merienda and not have to punch-out on the work clock.  Workplaces usually only offer lunch breaks but now working Merienda has become a more common occurrence at workplaces around the US.  Now, of course, people in England still call it tea time and Starbucks in England offer tons of tea and sconces options.  The most popular offering in the Starbucks in my town in the Philippines is the Pandesal and Sikwate - not coffee.  And, as it's one of the very few places that offer free wifi, it has become the goto place for uni students - so I don't go there to do work as uni students can be very boisterous.

Anyway, if you see Starbucks as simply a place that sells coffee (in the same manner that my family says an AR15 is simply a machine designed to kill people) then I can see why you would avoid Starbucks.  But that's not what Starbucks is for me (just like that's not what an AR15 is for my son) and so I don't see it like you do.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with your perception of Starbucks just as there's nothing wrong with my perception of Starbucks.  But, just like I don't have a problem calling my table a coffee table even if it has lost its function to hold coffee trays during Merienda time, I also don't have a problem calling Merienda tea time even when there's no tea offered and I have no problem with the vast majority of people drinking coffee during their Merienda time even as I don't - I'm not gonna stop having Merienda just because it's coffee and tea time for most everybody else.

Edited April 20, 2018 by anatess2

[Fether]

So if going into a coffee shop is just fine (which idea I do support), what does “avoid the appearance of evil” mean and can someone give an example of it? Cause I can’t think of a situation that I would call an “appearance of evil” without contradicting my stance on buying smoothies from coffee shops.

If I could enter a place that contains sin, but not partake of the sin, am I still fine? Why or why not?

Edited April 20, 2018 by Fether

[estradling75]

4 minutes ago, Fether said:

So if going into a coffee shop is just fine (which idea I do support), what does “avoid the appearance of evil” mean and can someone give an example of it? Cause I can’t think of a situation that I would call an “appearance of evil” without contradicting my stance on buying smoothies from coffee shops.

If I could enter a place that contains sin, but not partake of the sin, am I still fine? Why or why not?

Sin is a personal choice to rebel against God..  One can do lots of things that are not a choice to rebel against God...

To me the whole appearance of evil is about being your brother's keeper.  Read Paul's writing about eating meat to offered to idols... to summarize if you know what you are doing might cause someone else to stumble... don't do it.      To me that is the core behind the appearance of evil idea.

Of course that just kicks the problem down the road away because how do you know who is watching you?... how do you know who else might stumble because of what you do?

 

[Fether]

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

To me the whole appearance of evil is about being your brother's keeper.  Read Paul's writing about eating meat to offered to idols... to summarize if you know what you are doing might cause someone else to stumble... don't do it.      To me that is the core behind the appearance of evil idea.

But isn’t that just regular old “don’t dig a pit for your neighbor?” Why do we even need the phrase “avoid the appearance of evil if it is just synonymous with “don’t do wrong”

Also under this thinking, I can still enter a strip club and only partake of the food and none of the sin... and still be just fine

If that is im fact a no no, then why isn’t the coffee shop bit wrong as well?

Edited April 20, 2018 by Fether

[Vort]

6 minutes ago, Fether said:

But isn’t that just regular old “don’t dig a pit for your neighbor?”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I4F3LHcBWU

[Vort]

6 minutes ago, Fether said:

But isn’t that just regular old “don’t dig a pit for your neighbor?”

 

[estradling75]

20 minutes ago, Fether said:

But isn’t that just regular old “don’t dig a pit for your neighbor?” Why do we even need the phrase “avoid the appearance of evil if it is just synonymous with “don’t do wrong”

Also under this thinking, I can still enter a strip club and only partake of the food and none of the sin... and still be just fine

If that is im fact a no no, then why isn’t the coffee shop bit wrong as well?

Digging a pit is a deliberate action to bring your neighbor down (which is a sin all by itself)...Appearance of Evil is not you trying to bring your neighbor down... but being aware enough to understand that you might do so anyways..

As for the coffee/strip club.  I am reasonably sure I can walk into Starbucks order a non-coffee consume it and leave all without sinning personally.  I am also reasonable sure I can not walk into a strip club order whatever food they have, consume it and leave without sinning personally... I am just not that strong.  The temptation is not worth it (which is another possibly on the appearance of evil thing)

[NeuroTypical]

16 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

When asked by the Lord why you went to the Grocery Store...one can say they needed to get food.  When asked by the Lord why we went to the Gas station one can explain they needed to gas up their car.  When asked by the Lord why they supported and went to the Starbucks COFFEE COMPANY or any COFFEE CAFE what are you going to say.  You think the excuse had GREAT MUFFINS!!! is really going to answer the question, especially when he asks.

If it's the honest core truth, yes, the honest answer will answer the question.  I mean, perfect righteous judgment, from the One with the tools to apply them properly, is the promise.  And yes indeed, whatever the honest answer is, is the honest answer.  They call that a tautology, right?  

When my wife told me she went to Starbucks and got muffins because the grocery shopping was done and the kids were fussy and bribing them with muffins was sort of a fun family tradition and the store was right there in the Albertsons and yay muffins, then I have no doubt it was an honest answer.   And I'm just guessing here, but I can really see the Lord saying "well done thou good and faithful mother".  I mean, if someone goes to Starbucks to test the limits of non-sin, or to tick off their parent, or to play holier-than-JohnsonJones, then those would be honest answers that might generate a different answer from the Lord. 

Edited April 20, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[NeuroTypical]

 Oh - last year I did the taxes for a hooters girl.  We talked for a moment about what to put down for "occupation".  (I think we decided on 'server', because although there's more to it than that, she does indeed serve food.)  I did my absolute level best to get her the biggest refund legally allowed, and I treated her like a person with inherent value.

Anyone got a problem with that?

[Fether]

14 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Anyone got a problem with that?

Ya, doing taxes for work sounds awfully boring.

[Jedi_Nephite]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

Also under this thinking, I can still enter a strip club and only partake of the food and none of the sin... and still be just fine

If that is im fact a no no, then why isn’t the coffee shop bit wrong as well?

2

The difference is that if I were to walk into a Starbucks, I am certain that the Holy Ghost would still be with me (assuming I don't order any coffee).  However, I can guarantee you that if I were to walk into a strip club, I would lose the companionship of the Holy Ghost as soon as I pulled into the parking lot, even if my only intention was to have a good meal.  Strip clubs attract evil.  There is absolutely nothing good or righteous about them.  They are a prime example of the den of iniquity.  I would also venture a guess that in places like strip clubs, there are plenty of additional things going on that would drive away the spirit.  It is a spiritually dangerous place, and, quite often, physically dangerous, as well.  Not a place where the Holy Spirit is going to dwell.  Even if someone claims they are just going to have a good meal, they are still willingly putting themselves at great risk of temptation and spiritual danger.  Even if one didn't plan to look, how would one accomplish that?  Eat with their eyes closed?  Stare at the floor?  Starbucks, on the other hand, is not dangerous.  As others have already mentioned, you can enjoy other things there without the risk of accidentally violating the Word of Wisdom or anything else that might cause one to lose their Temple Recommend.  It is a place I would feel comfortable taking my kids.  Strip clubs, on the other hand?  Obviously, no.

[Fether]

2 hours ago, Jedi_Nephite said:

The difference is that if I were to walk into a Starbucks, I am certain that the Holy Ghost would still be with me (assuming I don't order any coffee).  However, I can guarantee you that if I were to walk into a strip club, I would lose the companionship of the Holy Ghost as soon as I pulled into the parking lot, even if my only intention was to have a good meal.  Strip clubs attract evil.  There is absolutely nothing good or righteous about them.  They are a prime example of the den of iniquity.  I would also venture a guess that in places like strip clubs, there are plenty of additional things going on that would drive away the spirit.  It is a spiritually dangerous place, and, quite often, physically dangerous, as well.  Not a place where the Holy Spirit is going to dwell.  Even if someone claims they are just going to have a good meal, they are still willingly putting themselves at great risk of temptation and spiritual danger.  Even if one didn't plan to look, how would one accomplish that?  Eat with their eyes closed?  Stare at the floor?  Starbucks, on the other hand, is not dangerous.  As others have already mentioned, you can enjoy other things there without the risk of accidentally violating the Word of Wisdom or anything else that might cause one to lose their Temple Recommend.  It is a place I would feel comfortable taking my kids.  Strip clubs, on the other hand?  Obviously, no.

The argument isn’t so much about one’s self mastery as it is about major and minor issues.

If it is wrong in extreme situations, why is it ok in minor situations

[estradling75]

25 minutes ago, Fether said:

The argument isn’t so much about one’s self mastery as it is about major and minor issues.

If it is wrong in extreme situations, why is it ok in minor situations

But it does boil down to self mastery...  Tons of people can walk into a Starbucks and not even be tempted to sin by drinking coffee...  But how many people can walk into to a strip club and not be tempted with the sin of lust?  If you can you are better person then me.  Most people understand this even if they didn't really think through the why.  Thus a strip club is worst not because it is the more major (although it is) its because the sin is practically unavoidable even if it is only in your thoughts